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Post by Cindy on Aug 17, 2016 9:56:51 GMT -5
Please read, Ezekiel 37:1–14. Remember that Daniel learned from studying God's Word that Jeremiah had prophesied that it would soon be time for Israel to go back to her own land. There were several prophets alive at the same time as Daniel - some older, some younger than he was. Among them were Ezekiel, Habakkuk, Jeremiah, and Zephaniah. Today we read the prophesies they wrote and know without any doubt that they were all true prophets of God. When they were alive, because they were true prophets and because they knew God and His Word, they also knew that each of the others were also true prophets. But the rest of the people alive in that day didn't know that. When we read the books they each wrote we discover that most of the people did not believe them, and mainly it was because they didn't want to know the Truth. They didn't want to admit their sins and have to repent of them. (just like it was in the time Jesus was here) However, those who truly belonged to God knew, and they listened to these prophets. Daniel also studied the prophesies of Ezekiel, and one of his prophecies also relates to the end times future of Israel. It's called the Valley of the Dry Bones.
We know from the previous chapter as well as Ezekiel 37:11 that the dry bones represent Israel. God shows them as bones that are dry and white with age, showing that they'd been lying in this valley for a very long time. Keep in mind that when the bible speaks of someone being dead, like it does here, it's not necessarily talking about them being physically dead, bur instead speaking of spiritual death. The people were alive, but the bones showed that they had been dead spiritually for a very, very long time.
In this prophecy, God brings Israel to life in stages. First the bones come together, then tendons and flesh are on them, then breath enters them, and finally, God puts His spirit in them. Let me share what one of my books say about this, as it is a prophecy that is being fulfilled even now:
The prophecy spoken by Ezekiel indicated a gradual coming together of the nation of Israel. The bodies of Jews were scattered all over this figurative graveyard that contained the bones of other civilizations now dead, such as the Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Medo-Persians, Romans, and so on. But the dead bones of Israel would be different; they would gradually leave the graveyard of dead civilizations and once again become a living nation. Indeed this is what has happened with the resurrection of Israel in the twentieth century.
A noise and rattling sound. The single most influential event that helped to draw the Jews back to Palestine from around the world was the signing of the Balfour Declaration in 1917. Nothing creates a noise and rattling sound more than a war. But there's actually more to the story of the noise. By 1916, World War 1 wasn't going well for England. The UK was desperate to find a method of manufacturing TNT quickly in order to repel the advancement of the Germans (and nothing makes a noise quite like TNT) A brilliant Jew named Chaim Weizmann invented a formula that made rapid production possible, which helped to change the course of the war. In return, the prime minister of England told Dr Weizmann to name his reward. Rejecting personal recompense, Weizmann requested that Palestine be declared the national homeland for the Jewish people. As a result, the Balfour Declaration was subsequently drafted and signed on November 2, 1917.
Bones coming together. In 1917, there were fewer than 100,000 Jews living in Palestine; but that would quickly change. For the first time the nation that controlled the land (England) gave official sanction to the scattered Jews to reclaim it. The bones were beginning to come together.
Tendons and flesh appearing. By the 1920's the bones were coming together but there was no meat on them. There was little national consciousness among the Jews. The government was British, although a few small Jewish unions called kibbutzim were beginning to crop up. However, all this changed when the Arabs began their assaults on the Jewish settlers. The defenseless Jews marshaled together in strength and unity to resist a common foe. The strength from the tendons and flesh was beginning to grow.
Skin covering them. The organizational unity and ability to self-govern became apparent following the establishment of Israel as a sovereign state in 1948 and it's recognition by the other living nations of the world. With skin covering the tendons and bones, the body of Israel was now recognizable, but there was still no "breath" within. This prophecy clearly indicates that Israel would be physically regathered before she was spiritually reborn.
But there was no "breath" in them. The word breath (Hebrew, ruach), when used symbolically in Scripture, indicates spiritual life. From the time God breathed into Adam the breath of life to make him a living soul, God has been more interested in man's spiritual life than in his physical. Mankind, for the most part, operates in the opposite manner; and the Jewish emigration to Israel is no exception. Essentially, the regathering of Jews into their homeland beginning in 1917 has been primarily a physically, politically and economically motivated experience. The majority of Jews who inhabit the Promised Land today have no "breath" in them. That is, they are not committed to God by faith and practice. Many tend to be rather secular and humanistic. Theodor Herzl was actually an atheist and the Zionist movement he founded was not a spiritual organization, but instead reflected strong humanistic tendencies. In fact, the Zionists in the Israeli government today frequently find themselves at odds with the orthodox rabbis and other minorities who are likely to serve and live according to the Old Testament.
But this will one day change. It is significant that Israel is only "a breath away" from completely fulfilling Ezekiel's prophecy in chapter 37, and this could happen within the very near future. In fact, the greatest prophetic event will take place in a sudden flash and without warning! Global Warning by Tim LaHaye and Ed Hindson on pages 124-126
Ezekiel 37:15–23 shows us that Israel will no longer be divided into two houses when God begins to bring this prophecy together. (remember that the Old Testament shows us that Israel was divided into the northern kingdom and the southern Kingdom before they were taken to Babylon) This has already come true as Israel today is one nation, and not divided into two kingdoms like they were before. If you continue to read on from there, or if you read the chapter this one, you'll see that both are speaking of the Millennial Kingdom. So God has placed this dry bones prophecy right in the middle of talking about the Millennial Kingdom.
As you can see, this prophecy explains why Israel is so worldly today and it tells us that the day will come when God will give them His Spirit to dwell in them. In other places in Ezekiel as well as in Jeremiah 31:31–40 and the books of the other prophets, God says this will happen when He puts a new heart in them - a heart that will love God and obey Him. It shows that this happens at the end of the Tribulation when they see Jesus returning to save them from the antichrist.
If you have questions you need to ask about the dry bones prophecy or anything else, please feel free to ask them.
Now, after all we've studied, I'd like you each to explain to me why the church can not be on the earth during the tribulation. Please tell me every single reason you can that shows the church can not be here then. Since I'm pretty sure that Barbara understands this from what she's already posted, I'd like Eva to be the first one to explain this to me. When Eva is done, then Barbara can explain it, ok? The reason I'm not sure if you understand all this Eva is just because you don't write very much about it, so I don't know how you're thinking or how much you understand. This is the only way I could think of to make sure you both really understand what I've been trying to explain all this time. After you've both done this, then we will start talking about the rapture and then the tribulation.
Ok, before my answer, I wonder how are we sure that this prophecy talks about these historical events in Jewish history, and not something else, for example how the church was formed from dead bones and then the church got the spirit? Couldnt this mean this also? This might be a silly question, though
Ezekiel 36 teaches:
(1) The Lord will honor His promises of restoration (Ezekiel 36:24).
(2) He will cleanse the people from their idolatry (Ezekiel 36:25).
(3) He will give them a “new heart” and “new spirit” (Ezekiel 36:26).
(4) His Spirit will enable them to walk in His laws (Ezekiel 36:27).
(5) They will live permanently in the land (Ezekiel 36:28).
(6) The Lord will renew His covenant affirmation to have them as His people and be their God (Ezekiel 36:28; Jeremiah 31:32–33).
(7) The land will again be productive (Ezekiel 36:29–30; Amos 9:13–15).
(8) They will remember their idolatry and “loathe” themselves (Ezekiel 36:31).
(9) Their cities will be resettled (Ezekiel 36:33).
(10) Desolate land will again be cultivated (Ezekiel 36:34).
(11) The land will be as productive as the garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35).
(12) All surrounding nations will acknowledge what God has done (Ezekiel 36:36).
(13) He will bless and increase His people like a flock (Ezekiel 36:37).
God did not and still does not want anyone to think that He will do these things because anyone deserves it. He wants Israel and us to know that if it was up to us, these things would never happen, because we are too wicked and sinful by nature to ever deserve anything. So He next writes Ezekiel 37, so that Israel can understand just how dead and undeserving they are and that they cannot make His promises to them come true no matter what they do. God shows them that they've been spiritually dead for a very, very long time. (that's why the bones are dry) Then in chapter 37, God shows them that even though it looks and seems totally impossible, that God will make all His promises to them come true and to do that, He will bring them back together and bring them back to life, giving them a new heart and new spirit just as He said in the previous chapter. Because the valley is full of bones and not just a few, we can know this is the resurrection of the nation of Israel and not one of just individuals, which it would have to show if it was in some weird way about the church.
The NT uses the word "mystery" to show things that were not revealed in the OT, but are being revealed in the NT. In Romans 11:25–27 which begins, “this mystery … Israel has experienced a hardening in part” shows us that Israel has experienced a partial spiritual hardening, that will last for a period of time that God alone has decided. These verses show us that Israel's sin of not recognizing Jesus as their Savior, is temporary, and was not revealed in the OT. The church was begun as a result of that sin and that also is a mystery that is not revealed until the NT. We are shown this in many scriptures such as: Ephesians 5:32—“a profound mystery … Christ and the church” and Colossians 1:26—“the mystery … kept hidden for ages and generations, but … now disclosed.”
I also wanted to share something else with you both so I didn't forget. If you read about how Paul was saved, you will see that it is an example of how Israel will be saved when Jesus returns the second time and reveals Himself to them. You can read about Paul's experience in Acts 9, Acts 22, and Acts 26. Jesus's return and their salvation is spoken of in Zechariah 12:10; Revelation 1:7; 1 Timothy 1:12–16, as well as many other scriptures.
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Post by evafromgreece on Aug 20, 2016 11:53:33 GMT -5
Hey guys!
Now that I read before and after these verses, I see that it was reffering to Israel and not the church, it says this also.
The reasons I believe the church wont be here during the Tribulation follow.
1. The Tribulation has to do with the wrath of God at the people who didnt accept Him, so the church has nothing to do with this.
2. The Tribulation has to do with the Israel nation who have never accepted Him
3.During this period people will face things and disasters that have nevered occured before. I know God will never put us on things we cannot handle and that are above our strength. So the church cannot be here during the tribulation.
4. God does not do anything for no reason and He waits until every single person gets saved. If church's time on earth is off, there is not need for the Christians to face this period, because it will not have something to offer to them. They will be already saved , they have learned on earth all the things God has planned for them to learn, and there will be no reason to face these trials.
You mentioned that the people of Israel that will be saved then will be like Paul. How about the unsaved gentiles?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383 
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Post by fearnot on Aug 20, 2016 14:40:52 GMT -5
I remember I asked you about the Gentiles that would be saved during the tribulation and you said, ( I think) it would be like the Old Testament....in that they would be a part of Israel, not the Church.
It is amazing that even to this very day, much of what is going on in the world has to do with the Jews and/or Israel....or the Middle East.
s
Yes other countries are important and have major news, yet it seems the statement that Israel is God's time clock is true in many respects and also what is happening with the church.
It seems like the Jews and the Christians are the most hated people in many ways. Other religions do not seem to attract the hated that Christianity (or the Jewish people) do.
Maybe I am not seeing the whole picture?
Oh I am soooo sorry I have been 'missing in action for awhile....my computer died and we just got me a new one yesterday....Leonard had a lot he needed to do on his computer so I didn't really have much time on it at all.
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Post by Cindy on Aug 22, 2016 12:20:51 GMT -5
Hey guys! Now that I read before and after these verses, I see that it was reffering to Israel and not the church, it says this also. The reasons I believe the church wont be here during the Tribulation follow. 1. The Tribulation has to do with the wrath of God at the people who didnt accept Him, so the church has nothing to do with this. 2. The Tribulation has to do with the Israel nation who have never accepted Him 3.During this period people will face things and disasters that have nevered occured before. I know God will never put us on things we cannot handle and that are above our strength. So the church cannot be here during the tribulation. 4. God does not do anything for no reason and He waits until every single person gets saved. If church's time on earth is off, there is not need for the Christians to face this period, because it will not have something to offer to them. They will be already saved , they have learned on earth all the things God has planned for them to learn, and there will be no reason to face these trials. You mentioned that the people of Israel that will be saved then will be like Paul. How about the unsaved gentiles?
2. The purpose of the tribulation does include them being judged for rejecting Him, but it includes a lot more than just that. If the tribulation is about God judging Israel just for rejecting Jesus, then why is it spoken of so much in the OT before Jesus even came?
3. You said God will never give us anything we can't handle, but that's not true. God often gives us things we cannot handle because He wants us to learn to rely on Him, not ourselves. What disaster will happen during the tribulation that have never occurred before? I think maybe you mean that many that will be worse then they have ever been before, like world wide earthquakes, but of course, there have been many earthquakes before, even some very bad ones, just not one that was all over the whole world.
4. I don't think anyone can learn everything God has for us to learn in one lifetime on earth even if we lived to be 1000 and always tried our best. We see people die today who are at different levels of learning about God. Not all of them have studied His Word carefully, and some die right after they are saved and couldn't have learned much at all, like the thief on the cross next to Jesus. BUT, you are partly right about everyone being saved that is supposed to be saved. However, the way you say it, seems to say that no one will be saved during the tribulation, and that's not true. So you need to be able to explain that more clearly.
The unsaved gentiles who are saved during the tribulation will be saved in the same manner they always have been. The difference will be that they will not become part of the church as I explained in other posts. The point about Paul's salvation was that God was still showing Israel what would happen to them in the future.
What I wanted you to do was see if you could remember the points I made in my posts and how they related to Israel, Gentiles and/or the tribulation. It would probably help you to go back to the start of this thread and read my posts again so it is all fresh in your mind, since it's taken so long to get this far.
edited to add: Eva, before answering the question you should probably read what I said to Barbara, not in this post but in my next one.
I remember I asked you about the Gentiles that would be saved during the tribulation and you said, ( I think) it would be like the Old Testament....in that they would be a part of Israel, not the Church.
It is amazing that even to this very day, much of what is going on in the world has to do with the Jews and/or Israel....or the Middle East.
s
Yes other countries are important and have major news, yet it seems the statement that Israel is God's time clock is true in many respects and also what is happening with the church.
It seems like the Jews and the Christians are the most hated people in many ways. Other religions do not seem to attract the hated that Christianity (or the Jewish people) do.
Maybe I am not seeing the whole picture?
Oh I am soooo sorry I have been 'missing in action for awhile....my computer died and we just got me a new one yesterday....Leonard had a lot he needed to do on his computer so I didn't really have much time on it at all.
If you want to go ahead and explain to me why the church can not be on the earth during the tribulation, now that Eva's had a chance to, please go ahead and do so whenever you're ready.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Aug 22, 2016 17:08:53 GMT -5
I fear I am not sure what exactly you are asking.
What I think I understand is that due to Israel's unbelief and not teaching the gentiles etc., that God set them aside....for a time.
The Gentiles were grafted in and we are in the Church age. But this time will come to and end and then God will turn back to the Jews because the church era/time will be over, when the last Gentile is saved ( not including those who will become a part of Israel during the tribulation) then we will be taken out of here.
So in order for God to go back to Israel the church needs to be out of the way.
I am not sure if that is what you were asking?
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Post by Cindy on Aug 23, 2016 11:32:49 GMT -5
Eva, before answering the question you should probably read what I just said to Barbara.I fear I am not sure what exactly you are asking.
What I think I understand is that due to Israel's unbelief and not teaching the gentiles etc., that God set them aside....for a time.
The Gentiles were grafted in and we are in the Church age. But this time will come to and end and then God will turn back to the Jews because the church era/time will be over, when the last Gentile is saved ( not including those who will become a part of Israel during the tribulation) then we will be taken out of here.
So in order for God to go back to Israel the church needs to be out of the way.
I am not sure if that is what you were asking?
In other words, everything I've written so far, was important to show why the church will not be here during the tribulation. If you go back and re-read this thread, (perhaps taking notes as you do so) you should be able to figure out why the church cannot be here because of what I told you about in each post. (or in some cases it took me more then one post to get the point across). I want to know that both you and Eva have not just read and forgot everything I said, but that you read it and understood why it was important to know about, and what it had to do with Israel and why the church would not being here during the tribulation. Some posts showed why Israel would be in the tribulation, others showed why the church wouldn't be in it, and still others showed both. I did take quite a bit of time to show that God did not leave the Gentiles out in the dark and did not punish them for no reason, but instead planned for us to be saved from the very start. So even learning the table of nations and where we are all descended from and who the Jew's are descended from becomes important to God's plan for Israel and for us gentiles. I had to re-read the thread myself and although I was sad to see how it jumped all over the place due to the long times in between while waiting for replies, so that I was unable to keep my train of thought, it all worked out in the long run and most of what I wanted to cover got covered anyway lol.
What I'm trying to do is not only show you both the truth, but make it so that you can each defend your faith to other people when you're asked to do so. It's easy to say something is true, but we also need to be able to know why it's true..... and give examples of it etc. so we can share our faith with others who are interested.
Let me give you each an example of what I'm asking you each to show me. If you read the following post and answered the question I asked you based just on what this one post says, this is what your answer would look like:
The first part of the OT shows us the beginning of man and how he sinned and how that sin multiplied in the land until eventually God destroyed everything but those He saved in the ark with Noah and His family. After that, we again see how the people began spreading out across the earth and again sin multiplied and the people became wicked, but God found Abraham and established a nation through him. Genesis 17:1–8 tells us about the covenant God made with Abraham.
Eventually God made the nation of Israel from Abraham's descendants and He did give Israel the Land, but their possession of it was determined by their obedience to God, which He warned them about many times, including Deut 11:26-28. Then in Deut 28, God told them exactly what their blessings would be if they obeyed and exactly what their curse would be if they disobeyed Him. The curse would be used to discipline them. It would be a good idea to read chapter 28 and see this for yourself. Keep in mind that all the land that God gave to Israel was given to them because of the wickedness of the Gentiles that were living there.This alone should have been a vivid reminder to them that they should not anger the Lord and disobey Him, but sadly it wasn't. In Deuteronomy 7:6–8 and Deuteronomy 9:6 the Lord told them why He chose them, and that it was not because they were righteous or the biggest nation or any great thing like that, but simply because He was God and chose to love them and kept His promises, like the one He made to Abraham.
In the next portion of the OT, we learn about how Israel went into Egypt and eventually became slaves there. After 400 years, the Lord called Moses to rescue them and bring them out of Egypt and into the land God had promised Abraham He would give them. After God brought the Jew's out of Egypt, He did something very, very important to the Jew's and to the gentiles. First, He fulfilled the prophecy He'd given Moses by bringing them all to the foot of Mount Sinai to worship Him there. But He also gave Moses a message for the people. Let me share these very important scriptures with you: “Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. The people all responded together, “We will do everything the LORD has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.” (Exodus 19:3–8)
Notice that God told Israel what their job was going to be. Just as He saves us so we can do the good works He planned for us to do, so He saved them so they could do the work He had planned for them. The work He had for them was to be His priests. Their job was to tell the world about Him. Notice that the entire nation together said that they would obey everything the Lord said to them. Notice that the Lord had 3 titles for them, 1. a treasured possession, 2. a kingdom of priests, and 3. a holy nation. These titles show the blessings that would be theirs if they obeyed Him. They would belong especially to the Lord, and would represent Him on the earth, and would be set apart to Him for His purposes. Another important thing to keep in mind is that God said this blessing was conditional; There is an "if" before He tells them the blessing and the "if' is "if they obey Him fully" then these 3 titles would be theirs and they would have these blessings as well as all those He promised Abraham.
Next, God told Moses to tell prepare all of Israel to hear from Him. Moses told Israel that they had to wash themselves and their clothes and then he would consecrate them so they'd be ready to hear from God. Israel spent two days washing and being consecrated and they were ready to Hear from God on the third day. Moses had also told them that God would be on the mountain so no one, not even an animal could touch the mountain or they would die, because God is Holy and cannot be where sin is. On the third day, there was the sound of a trumpet which announced the presence of God on the mountain, and all of Israel gathered together at the foot of the mountain to listen to Him. (Exodus 19:16) The Lord descended to the top of the mountain and called Moses to come up to meet Him. It was at this time that the Lord gave Moses the 10 commandments.
Did you notice that there was the sound of a trumpet blast which announced the presence of God? That's why there will be the sound of a trumpet at the rapture as well, because it will be announcing the presence of God.
We've already seen how Israel seemed to constantly fall away and sin against God, so He would punish them and then they would repent and He'd rescue them again. This continued until they were sent to Babylon for 70 years. It was during and toward the end of that time that God told His prophets, including Daniel, what was going to happen to Israel and to the Gentiles as well.
We see right at the very start that Israel did not obey the Lord very well or very often. They would rejoice in how He rescued them, and then turn right around and worship idols instead of Him! God disciplined them each time they did this and each time they sinned in other ways, trying to teach them that obedience brought blessings and disobedience brought pain and heartache. After many unnecessary delays because of their disobedience, God finally established them in the promised land. And again, they began the same routine of disobedience! They would disobey Him and He would discipline them. Then when they cried out to be saved again, in His love and mercy He would again rescue them. What they didn't seem to understand was that each time, He was really rescuing them from themselves because it was their own sin that brought the hardships onto them.
If you read Deut 28, you may have noticed that the curses got worse as they went along. They started out affecting the people themselves with sickness and or poverty or both, then eventually became so bad that they said they would be conquered by other nations and forced to leave the promised land and become slaves again in other lands. As we read the history of Israel in the OT we see this is just what happened to them. Each time they disobeyed the sentence against them was a little worse then the one before, they would eventually repent and turn to God, and He would rescue them and then the whole cycle would start over again. In between each cycle the Lord sent prophets to warn the people and remind them to obey Him, but they never listened to them, or perhaps I should say that very few ever listened to them. God always kept a remnant of people who belonged to Him alone. During this time too the nation of Israel became divided into two houses instead of just one and became Israel and Judah, the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom.
Finally God allowed Assyria to defeat Israel, and the Babylonians to conquer Judah and their captivity and slavery to the Babylonians was the worst and lasted for 70 years. He did this because their sin of idolatry had become so pervasive that there were very few people left that truly worshiped Him. When they were taken captive by Babylon, God removed the turban which represented the priestly leadership and He removed the crown which represented the succession of Kings. ““ ‘O profane and wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Take off the turban, remove the crown. It will not be as it was: The lowly will be exalted and the exalted will be brought low. A ruin! A ruin! I will make it a ruin! It will not be restored until he comes to whom it rightfully belongs; to him I will give it.’” (Ezekiel 21:25–27) Neither office was fully restored after they returned from this captivity. That's very important to remember. Another important detail about this is that this is when “the times of the Gentiles” which is spoken of in the NT actually began.“They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) Because this is so important, we are going to start with the Babylonian exile.
“This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. “But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt,” declares the LORD, “and will make it desolate forever.” (Jeremiah 25:11–12) The prophet Daniel was one of the ones who were captured and taken to Babylon. He was righteous and loved God and studied His Word, especially the prophecies of Jeremiah such as the one above, who was also alive during this time. When he saw that the captivity was to last for 70 years, he began praying, because he knew those years were almost up. “In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom— in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.” (Daniel 9:1–3) Because he searched God's Word and listened to God's prophets, God showed Him what His plan for Israel was.
““Seventy ‘sevens’ (70 “sevens” is a span of 490 years.) are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”” (Daniel 9:24–27)
The 70 “sevens” would begin, with the issuing of the decree to restore & rebuild Jerusalem. The decree took place on March 4, 444 b.c. (Neh. 2:1–8).
The first 7 weeks or 49 years covers the end of Nehemiah's career in rebuilding Jerusalem and the end of the ministry of Malachi and the close of the Old Testament.
The 62 weeks or 434 more years for a total of 483 years takes us to the first advent of the Messiah. This was fulfilled at the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem.
The Messiah, or the "anointed one" will be “cut off,” is talking about when Jesus died on the cross;
and the final 7 years or 70th week will be the time of Antichrist during the Tribulation period.
"The people of the ruler who will come" are the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem in ad 70.
"desolations have been decreed" are God's judgements, His Wrath being poured out during the Tribulation
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ " Is talking about the 7 year treaty that the Antichrist will confirm with Israel saying that he will protect her and allowing her to have their temple and worship restored.
"In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." Half way through the 7 years of the Tribulation would be 3 and a half years. So 3 and a half years after agreeing to the treaty with Israel, the Antichrist will break the treaty and force them to stop their worship and sacrifices at their temple. We are told how he will do this:
"And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation," An abomination is something that causes disgust; something that is detestable. When it involves the temple it would "defile" it, making it so that it was "unclean" and Israel would not be able to worship in it anymore until it had been cleansed again.
Daniel prophesied that the Temple would be used for an “abominable” purpose at some time in the future. As a result, God’s faithful people would no longer worship there—so great would be their moral revulsion, contempt, and abhorrence at the sacrilege—and the Temple would become “desolate.” Nelson’s new illustrated Bible dictionary
Jesus spoke about this too:““So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” (Matthew 24:15–16). "The Holy place" was the area inside the temple where the ark of the covenant would have been, behind the curtain that was torn in two when Jesus died. John wrote that the false prophet will set up an image to this ruler and that the world will be compelled to worship it instead of God: “Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.” (Revelation 13:14–15) When we put this and other scriptures together we find that the Antichrist will surround Jerusalem with soldiers and will set up His image in the temple and force all the people to worship him instead of God. This is what Jesus warned them about and told them that when they saw this, they should flee to the mountains. Here are a couple of other scriptures that talk about it: ““When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” (Mark 13:14) ““When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.” (Luke 21:20) Daniel also speaks of it again: ““From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.” (Daniel 12:11) The angel said that 1,290 days will be measured off from the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished. The last half of the 70th “seven” of years is “a time, times, and half a time”. We see this in Daniel 7:25 and Rev 12:14. which is 3 and a half years. It is also called 42 months in Rev 11:2 and 1,260 days in Rev 11:3. This leaves us with an extra 30 days which is the time during which Jesus will judge the people and nations after the Tribulation.
Keep in mind when reading this that this is God's plan for Israel. At the time God revealed this to Daniel, Israel was in bondage to Babylon and Jerusalem and much of the country of Israel had been destroyed. When Daniel heard all of this, he was horrified! He was horrified because he hoped, like we all do, that Israel would behave themselves and obey God after He rescued them from Babylon, but this showed him that while God would indeed rescue them yet again, that they still would not obey Him and would therefore have to face more punishment and discipline for their sins.
This is already much longer and more involved then I intended it to get, so I'm going to stop here for now.You should probably look up the scriptures I've posted for you and read them for yourself to get a better idea of what has happened and what will happen.
So, what does all of that tell you about Israel and the church?
1. It's shows what God saved the nation of Israel to do - the job or works that he planned for them to do when He saved them. (I got into this more in a much later post)
2. It showed what the blast or sound of the trumpet means, which will be important to understand later when we study the rapture, as again we will hear the sound of the trumpet then too.
3. It showed that Israel would no longer have a King or High Priest chosen the way God had intended or ordered for them to be chosen.
4. It showed that Israel was divided into two houses (or parts) instead of being one nation.
5. It showed that God counted or determined the years for Israel in groups of seven and that the tribulation would last for seven years, and would come after a long gap in time during which history would revolve around the gentiles.
6. It showed the purpose of the tribulation was to put an end to sin, and atone for wickedness and the result of it would be to bring in everlasting righteousness and once again anoint their King and High Priest - the offices that have not been filled since Babylonian days. (both offices will be filled by the Messiah, which will happen at the end of the tribulation and the start of the Millennium.)
7. It showed that the temple and Jerusalem would be rebuilt (which they were) that their Messiah would die, and then the temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed again, (which they were) only to be rebuilt yet again before the end, and that the antichrist would make a false treaty of peace with Israel which would be the start of the Tribulation; and in the middle of the tribulation the antichrist would set up an abomination in the temple.
8. It showed that the antichrist would have a huge army that would surround Israel and that he would persecute the Jew's during the last half of the tribulation so when they saw the abomination they were to flee to the mountains where God would keep them safe till the end of it.
9. It showed us that there would be an extra 30 days at the end of the Tribulation which is when Jesus will judge those who are still alive and determine who will be allowed into the Millennial kingdom.
10. This all shows us the basics of God's plan for Israel.
You should be able to do this with each of the posts after this one, to show something about God's plan for Israel and/or the church. After reading the above posts and writing the answers we can easily see that the church is not mentioned anywhere in this plan. There is nothing about the church. The only thing we can possibly guess at would be that the church might be found in the gap of time between the time the Messiah, Jesus, was killed and the time when the tribulation begins. But before the Messiah is killed there is no mention of the church and after the tribulation begins, there is no mention of the church. Further, the purpose of the tribulation is stated here and it too does not mention anything about the church.
See what I'm looking for now? I did the hardest one for you guys so the rest should be much easier.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Aug 24, 2016 11:06:45 GMT -5
I will start re-reading and taking notes today :-)
Maybe even post today, but I will see how it goes as I will also look up each passage you posted.
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Post by Cindy on Aug 24, 2016 11:58:33 GMT -5
I will start re-reading and taking notes today :-)
Maybe even post today, but I will see how it goes as I will also look up each passage you posted. |
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Post by evafromgreece on Aug 24, 2016 15:01:03 GMT -5
One thought, I am not sure its right. Remember when God saved Lot because of Abrahams prayers?
Could this be accurate, to save us from this period of wrath because of our prayers,for the prayers of every single member of the church?
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Post by evafromgreece on Aug 24, 2016 15:07:51 GMT -5
Hey guys! Now that I read before and after these verses, I see that it was reffering to Israel and not the church, it says this also. The reasons I believe the church wont be here during the Tribulation follow. 1. The Tribulation has to do with the wrath of God at the people who didnt accept Him, so the church has nothing to do with this. 2. The Tribulation has to do with the Israel nation who have never accepted Him 3.During this period people will face things and disasters that have nevered occured before. I know God will never put us on things we cannot handle and that are above our strength. So the church cannot be here during the tribulation. 4. God does not do anything for no reason and He waits until every single person gets saved. If church's time on earth is off, there is not need for the Christians to face this period, because it will not have something to offer to them. They will be already saved , they have learned on earth all the things God has planned for them to learn, and there will be no reason to face these trials. You mentioned that the people of Israel that will be saved then will be like Paul. How about the unsaved gentiles?
2. The purpose of the tribulation does include them being judged for rejecting Him, but it includes a lot more than just that. If the tribulation is about God judging Israel just for rejecting Jesus, then why is it spoken of so much in the OT before Jesus even came?
3. You said God will never give us anything we can't handle, but that's not true. God often gives us things we cannot handle because He wants us to learn to rely on Him, not ourselves. What disaster will happen during the tribulation that have never occurred before? I think maybe you mean that many that will be worse then they have ever been before, like world wide earthquakes, but of course, there have been many earthquakes before, even some very bad ones, just not one that was all over the whole world. Yes but He gives us ways to handle it, so with Him we can. But also He knows our limits. I remember the story of Job, every trial was up to a limit. Maybe Tribulation is beyond this limit? Is this right?
4. I don't think anyone can learn everything God has for us to learn in one lifetime on earth even if we lived to be 1000 and always tried our best. We see people die today who are at different levels of learning about God. Not all of them have studied His Word carefully, and some die right after they are saved and couldn't have learned much at all, like the thief on the cross next to Jesus. BUT, you are partly right about everyone being saved that is supposed to be saved. However, the way you say it, seems to say that no one will be saved during the tribulation, and that's not true. So you need to be able to explain that more clearly.
I am not talking for individuals, but for the Church as the body of Christ. The church will have completed its mission by then and played its role. Israel nation still would not have accept Jesus, so God will go to the next step.
The unsaved gentiles who are saved during the tribulation will be saved in the same manner they always have been. The difference will be that they will not become part of the church as I explained in other posts. The point about Paul's salvation was that God was still showing Israel what would happen to them in the future.
What I wanted you to do was see if you could remember the points I made in my posts and how they related to Israel, Gentiles and/or the tribulation. It would probably help you to go back to the start of this thread and read my posts again so it is all fresh in your mind, since it's taken so long to get this far. |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Aug 24, 2016 20:15:33 GMT -5
Thanks Cindy, I think I am making it harder than necessary but I am not sure how else to do it.
However, I got a bad headache/neck pain so I couldn't get very far
(I've noticed this sometimes, not always happens after cleaning, especially when things go wrong like yesterday only had 4 hours......
and the washer stopped working!
Talk about stress, thankfully the neighbors let us use their washer dryer....plus 3 of the 4 beds mean crawling on hands and knees to make, and one I actually have to lay down on my side and inch worm up and down on the floor.
Why you might wonder? Because the landlord made an upstairs ( originally for their children) that was never meant to be a room, so the walls are slanted right down to the floor....its hard to explain....
Even harder to make beds that are just mattresses on floor with only a few inches from ceiling to wall.
Anyway all of that to say I only made it about 1/2 way thru page one and these are the notes so far:
'Jacob's trouble' refers to the Jews ( not the Gentiles or church)
The 70 7's are for 'your' people, the Jews
The last trumpet is for the church, signals the appearance of God.
There will be other trumpets during the trib but they are judgement trumpets and not for the church.
God has a plan for Israel which does not include the church
And then, I had to take a muscle relaxer and a norco and lay down I was in just to much pain so that is as far as I got today.
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Post by Cindy on Aug 25, 2016 9:34:55 GMT -5
Thanks Cindy, I think I am making it harder than necessary but I am not sure how else to do it.
However, I got a bad headache/neck pain so I couldn't get very far
(I've noticed this sometimes, not always happens after cleaning, especially when things go wrong like yesterday only had 4 hours......
and the washer stopped working!
Talk about stress, thankfully the neighbors let us use their washer dryer....plus 3 of the 4 beds mean crawling on hands and knees to make, and one I actually have to lay down on my side and inch worm up and down on the floor.
Why you might wonder? Because the landlord made an upstairs ( originally for their children) that was never meant to be a room, so the walls are slanted right down to the floor....its hard to explain....
Even harder to make beds that are just mattresses on floor with only a few inches from ceiling to wall.
Anyway all of that to say I only made it about 1/2 way thru page one and these are the notes so far:
'Jacob's trouble' refers to the Jews ( not the Gentiles or church)
The 70 7's are for 'your' people, the Jews
The last trumpet is for the church, signals the appearance of God.
There will be other trumpets during the trib but they are judgement trumpets and not for the church.
God has a plan for Israel which does not include the church
And then, I had to take a muscle relaxer and a norco and lay down I was in just to much pain so that is as far as I got today.
When you're feeling that badly hon, just skip this that day. I don't want to add to your pain! Hope today is better for you!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Aug 25, 2016 12:07:53 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy....It seems if I am going to stress and/or strain something on a cleaning day, the day after ( well the same day also) are not so good.
But today is better, and I think that God willing Fri will be better yet and then its cleaning again Sat ( which will either be ok or not so okay).
I am thinking it is getting a little easier each time we clean ( in some ways). But if its super hot ( strangely we have had a few HOT days....hot for the coast) or something like the washer breaking, or there were a ton of people and they were a tad messy etc. then......not so good.
But if only 2 people came, they pretty much clean up after themselves etc. and the weather was nice....we are getting a little more used to the work..little by little.
Plus I have been working on trying to eat better ( less CANDY) making my own homemade kefir, cultured foods etc.
But I have to feel good enough to do that LOL so its a little tricky but slowly on and with Jesus by my side....
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Post by Cindy on Aug 26, 2016 11:52:06 GMT -5
Well, please don't stress or push yourself too hard about this. Just get to it when you can, knowing that I fully understand how long it takes to recover after doing something. I'm the same way. So, like I said, don't worry about this thread when you're having a rough time. Just wait till you can get to it when you feel better.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Aug 26, 2016 12:46:11 GMT -5
I am poking along re-reading this....almost done with page one but not yet.
I am thinking God always had a master plan for Israel but they continued over and over to sin ( with idols etc etc.)
God had (among others) reveal is His master plan to Daniel and the Gentiles.
God does not change or give up, what He says will be done but not everything is fulfilled for Israel due to their harden hearts....which will stay harden ( for most Jews) until the last Gentile is saved (the true church) and when God is done with the Gentiles, He will go back to the Jews.
Jesus addressed what would happen to the Jews during the trib...no mention of the church
Isaiah 10:20-23 refers to the remnant of Israel (no mention of Gentiles or the church)
Jeremiah speaks only of the Jews in those days ( the trib)...no Gentiles...the church will be gone.
But the trib happens because that is how the Jews will finally accept Jesus as their Savior. arrrggghhh I forgot the verse that says that..... sigh!
The church isn't there because the true believers have already accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and the last one has already come in.
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Post by Cindy on Aug 29, 2016 10:11:06 GMT -5
I am poking along re-reading this....almost done with page one but not yet.
I am thinking God always had a master plan for Israel but they continued over and over to sin ( with idols etc etc.)
God had (among others) reveal is His master plan to Daniel and the Gentiles.
God does not change or give up, what He says will be done but not everything is fulfilled for Israel due to their harden hearts....which will stay harden ( for most Jews) until the last Gentile is saved (the true church) and when God is done with the Gentiles, He will go back to the Jews.
Jesus addressed what would happen to the Jews during the trib...no mention of the church
Isaiah 10:20-23 refers to the remnant of Israel (no mention of Gentiles or the church)
Jeremiah speaks only of the Jews in those days ( the trib)...no Gentiles...the church will be gone.
But the trib happens because that is how the Jews will finally accept Jesus as their Savior. arrrggghhh I forgot the verse that says that..... sigh!
The church isn't there because the true believers have already accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and the last one has already come in. |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Aug 30, 2016 20:05:51 GMT -5
I finished page one today and have JUST started p.2
I didn't see anything to add yet.....then again I am super tired,plus I think there will be more coming info to add to the question why we won't be here during the tribulation coming up as I read more of p.2.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Aug 31, 2016 1:39:11 GMT -5
I don't mean for you to feel you must answer these new questions now but maybe over time....
Anyway, I started thinking ( a bad sign LOL)
It seems like the church and the Jews (and unbelievers yet a different one also) will have very different paths/experience during the tribulation.
Then maybe also somewhat different during the millennium, and then in eternity future?
Yet Jesus also united us (Jews and Gentiles) in Himself.....so will we be together in eternity Heaven, or will the Jews be on earth and we in Heaven...that doesn't seem right either?
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Post by Cindy on Aug 31, 2016 12:36:44 GMT -5
I finished page one today and have JUST started p.2
I didn't see anything to add yet.....then again I am super tired,plus I think there will be more coming info to add to the question why we won't be here during the tribulation coming up as I read more of p.2. I don't mean for you to feel you must answer these new questions now but maybe over time....
Anyway, I started thinking ( a bad sign LOL)
It seems like the church and the Jews (and unbelievers yet a different one also) will have very different paths/experience during the tribulation.
Then maybe also somewhat different during the millennium, and then in eternity future?
Yet Jesus also united us (Jews and Gentiles) in Himself.....so will we be together in eternity Heaven, or will the Jews be on earth and we in Heaven...that doesn't seem right either?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Aug 31, 2016 17:04:59 GMT -5
Thank you! Today I have the sneezes and sniffles and tired but I have read a bit more so slowly i am getting this re-read but so far the operative word is slowly.
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Post by Cindy on Sept 1, 2016 8:10:35 GMT -5
I wanted to add one last thing to show you that the church can not be here during the tribulation. It's scripture that the apostles quote to prove that the gentiles who came to Christ do not have to follow the law. James quoted Amos 9:11-12: ““ ‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ that have been known for ages.” (Acts 15:16–18) At the time James quoted this scripture, gentiles had already begun being saved and were part of the new Church, the body of Christ. Some of the pharisees who'd been saved were arguing that the gentiles should be made to be circumcised and should have to follow the law just as they had. Paul and Barnabas, and others were saying that the gentiles shouldn't have to do all that because God had already given them the Holy Spirit. So they all came together in Jerusalem to discuss it and decide what God's Will was for the gentiles.
So remember, at this point in time, gentiles are already part of the church and the church itself has grown tremendously. By now there were many, many thousands who had been saved all over the middle east and even further out. While the Apostles still hoped that Jesus would soon return to start His Kingdom, by now they had begun to understand that before that happened, the church would have to be fully established and the gentiles saved. In their minds, I'm sure they probably thought they could get that job done fairly quickly, so that Jesus could then return and start the Kingdom for Israel. So while they had no idea it would take as long as it has, they did know now that the church was to be established before Jesus returned. So at that counsel they were deciding what the Gentiles had to do to be saved - did they have to follow the law and be circumcised like the Jew's had been? Let me quote the passage that James quoted again, and then I'm going to quote the exact passage from Amos, as it's a little different there, but I'm going to quote it "in context" so you will have a better idea of what Amos is talking about. I will underline the part that James quoted too.
““ ‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ that have been known for ages.” (Acts 15:16–18)
““For I will give the command, and I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations as grain is shaken in a sieve, and not a pebble will reach the ground. All the sinners among my people will die by the sword, all those who say, ‘Disaster will not overtake or meet us.’ “In that day I will restore David’s fallen tent. I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be, so that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations that bear my name,” declares the LORD, who will do these things. “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills. I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit.” (Amos 9:9–14)
If we look at the passage from Amos, we can see that the first verses I quoted are talking about the Tribulation. The part that James quoted then is speaking of the Millennial Kingdom, which becomes even more clear as we read the verses after the part he quoted. The reason James quoted this is because it shows that the one thing that would horrify most Jews, is true. That it's not just the Jew's how bear God's Name, but that Gentiles will also bear God's Name. By the time James quoted this, the apostles knew and understood that Israel had fallen from God's Grace and rejecting their Messiah was the last straw. Now they were under God's judgment instead. As I said before though, I'm sure that the apostles believed that they could do the work of telling the world and establish the church in short order so that Jesus could then return and start the Kingdom. I'd be willing to bet that when the Romans conquered Israel and demolished the Temple and Jerusalem and took all the Jew's as slaves, that they thought Jesus would appear any second! They had no idea that so much time would go by before His return.
James quoted this passage to prove that God did not require the Gentiles to follow the law or be circumcised. James This verse shows that Gentiles will be saved in the Millennium when Christ will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent, that is, restore the nation Israel. Amos said nothing about Gentiles needing to be circumcised. If Gentiles will be saved in the Kingdom Age (the Millennium), why should they become Jewish proselytes by circumcision in the Church Age? Many prophets predicted Gentile salvation in the Millennium, as James stated in Acts 15:15 (Isaiah 42:6; Isaiah 60:3; Malachi 1:11).
Again, just like the many others, this prophecy shows that God's attention will be fully on the Jews, on Israel during the Tribulation. Only after the tribulation, when the Millennial Kingdom has begun, will Gentiles again be part of God's plan, but then it will be very different then it is now during the church age. During the Millennial Kingdom, Israel will be the one and only world leader, and Gentiles who are born during that time will seek the Jews to learn about God. They will finally get their chance to do the very thing that God originally saved them to do. The same thing they refused to do for all these many centuries. They will be God's priests, His holy people, and they will teach the rest of the world about our God.
We can see from the first words of the prophecy, "After this" that Israel will be under God's judgement up till the time of the tribulation, at which time their tribulations will become even worse. But 'After this" they will be healed and God will give them a new heart and a right spirit and they will finally love God with all their hearts, minds and strength. Then "all Israel will be saved. But that won't happen till "after this", after the tribulation. So while this passage shows that God doesn't require Gentiles to follow the law and be circumcised, it also shows that there is no church during that time period. If the body of Christ was on the earth during the tribulation, then it would be the church witnessing to others and teaching them about the Lord, both then and during the Millennium. Yet God says nothing about the church. He says that Israel will bring the Gentiles to the Lord and teach them about Him.
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Post by Cindy on Sept 6, 2016 9:14:12 GMT -5
I can't wait any longer, so you guys can go through this thread any time on your own and learn why the church can't be on earth during the tribulation.
I want to point out one more important thing to you. Before the fall, God walked with Adam. After the fall, after God had chosen Israel, and guided them out of Egypt, He told them that He would dwell with them. Now this is similar to the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, only, obviously, not quite as intimate since He would still be separate from them. So God tells them to make a place for Him to dwell with them. ““Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them.” (Exodus 25:8) Now, we know that God is everywhere, all the time, and doesn't need a building to dwell in. But He did this to teach them and us some very important lessons. Once they had built the tabernacle, (also called the Ark of the testimony or Ark of the covenant) the glory of God came and filled the Tent of meeting: “Then the cloud covered the Tent of Meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. Moses could not enter the Tent of Meeting because the cloud had settled upon it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. In all the travels of the Israelites, whenever the cloud lifted from above the tabernacle, they would set out; but if the cloud did not lift, they did not set out—until the day it lifted. So the cloud of the LORD was over the tabernacle by day, and fire was in the cloud by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel during all their travels.” (Exodus 40:34–38) In this way Israel could know that their God was with them. It is also because of this, that God taught them about things being either clean or unclean. He explained to them that because He was dwelling with them, they had to keep their camp and themselves clean at all times, as He cannot dwell among sin. ““ ‘You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place, which is among them.’ ”” (Leviticus 15:31 see also Numbers 35:34) When we read Leviticus and all the rules God gave them so they would be "clean", and realize that now God doesn't just dwell with us, but dwells within us, it helps us understand just how incredible this is and how we need to keep our lives pure because of it. (1 Corinthians 6:19–20)
When Israel continued to sin and had been warned many times and did not repent, God allowed the Ark to be captured and removed His glory from the Temple. “She said, “The glory has departed from Israel, for the ark of God has been captured.”” (1 Samuel 4:22) Much later, after Solomon had built the Temple for the Lord, the Lord again came and dwelt among them: “When the priests withdrew from the Holy Place, the cloud filled the temple of the LORD. And the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled his temple.” (1 Kings 8:10–11) Again Israel continued to sin and not repent even though they had been disciplined by the Lord many times and warned many times. So the Lord caused the Babylonians to conquer them and sent Israel to Babylon as slaves. At that time, before Babylon destroyed the Temple, God's glory again left Israel, and God allowed Ezekiel to see a vision of when it happened. This time His Glory left in stages instead of all at once. At first it just left for a short time to the doorway of the Temple and then returned to the Mercy Seat (Ezekiel 9:3) Then it left again to the doorway and this time did not return. (Ezekiel 10:4) From the doorway it moved to the courtyard (Ezekiel 10:18). Then, borne on the wings of angels, God's Glory moved to the gate on the east side of the Temple, and finally it went up from the city and stood over the Mount of Olives: “Then the cherubim, with the wheels beside them, spread their wings, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them. The glory of the LORD went up from within the city and stopped above the mountain east of it.” (Ezekiel 11:22–23) where the glory remained for three-and-a-half years, as if waiting for a change in the hearts of the people. (something else to reflect on!) On this same mountain Jesus wept over Jerusalem (Luke 19:41); here is where He ascended and will return (Acts 1:9–12).
Israel would not have a chance to be blessed again until His Son came, but they rejected Him. Remember that Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives and told us that when He returns He will return to the exact same place. That was no accident. When Jesus returns, He will first step foot on this earth on the Mount of Olives, where He ascended into Heaven and where God's Glory left Israel. Then, they will be saved and once again, God will dwell with them, and they will receive all the blessings He promised them. “On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.” (Zechariah 14:4) God also allowed Ezekiel to see a vision of when He would return to dwell with them: “Then the man brought me to the gate facing east, and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory. The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown. The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east. Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple.” (Ezekiel 43:1–5). All of this will happen when Jesus returns to the earth and us with Him.
One of the reasons it's difficult to explain the end times, rapture, tribulation and Millennial kingdom, is because so much of what will happen during each of those times, is linked with what happens in the others and the reasons for it all is shown in bits and pieces in each of the ages. Just like what we just spoke about. In order to understand why Jesus will first step foot on the Mount of Olives, we had to go back to the time of Moses, and from there to the age of the law, and then to His first advent. Without all of these tied together, we can't see the whole picture. The same is true for many of the things we've already learned and that we'll be learning.
This is another reason why so many people don't understand the rapture, tribulation and millennial kingdom. Because so many Christians don't study the Old Testament, they don't have a good understanding of God or even of themselves. How then can they hope to understand what God says about the future? Besides which, most of what is explained about the tribulation and millennium is explained in the Old Testament, not the New! The Old Testament explains the New and in fact, the Old Testament explains our salvation and sanctification. Without it, we can't even understand our salvation or anything else properly, much less know God's heart. I have heard many teachers and pastors say that how we understand the second coming, tribulation etc, is not a core issue and doesn't affect our salvation. I understand what they mean and why they say that, but I also have to disagree with them in a way. In one way they are correct, but in another way, they aren't. I say that because if you don't have a proper understanding of God's plan for Israel and His plan for the church, then you can't understand your own salvation properly and that IS a core issue! How you view the subject of the end times, rapture, tribulation, and millennial kingdom, affects how you view and understand salvation and how you view and understand God. If you get one wrong, you get it all wrong - at least some parts of it. So it's very important to understand all of this, and very important to study the Old Testament.
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Post by Cindy on Sept 6, 2016 10:40:52 GMT -5
The purpose of the Age of the Law was to show the true nature of sin and its effects, and show that no one could keep the law and realize that we needed a Savior.
The purpose of the Church Age (the age of grace) is to demonstrate God’s grace towards a sinful race;
The purpose of the Tribulation is given in Daniel 9:24–27 as the purification of Israel.
Another purpose is to demonstrate the horrendous consequence of unrestrained sin (a world without grace) and it's punishment and judgement. The church does not have purpose or place in the Tribulation. Keep in mind that the world will once more be in the Age of the Law during the Tribulation.
Israel was given unconditional promises (covenants) in the Old Testament that must be fulfilled with Israel in the millennial kingdom. The church, on the other hand, is a distinct New Testament entity born at Pentecost (1 Cor. 12:13) and does not exist in the Old Testament, and is not prophesied in the Old Testament (Eph. 3:9). It exists from Pentecost (Acts 2) until the rapture (1 Thess. 4:13–18). The Unconditional promises given to Israel are:
(1) The Abrahamic covenant. Described in Genesis 12:1–3, the Abrahamic covenant promised a land (see also Genesis 13:14–17; Genesis 17:2–6; Genesis 22:18) further developed in the Palestinian covenant); numerous descendants involving a nation, dynasty, and a throne further developed in the Davidic covenant); and redemption further developed in the New Covenant).
(2) The Palestinian covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1–10). This covenant guarantees Israel’s permanent right to the land. It is unconditional. This covenant promises the ultimate return of Israel to the land in repentance and faith in circumstances wherein God will prosper them. This covenant will be fulfilled in the Millennium.
(3) The Davidic covenant (2 Samuel 7:12–16). The covenant is summarized in verse 16: “Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.’ ”” (2 Samuel 7:16) This covenant will be fulfilled when Christ returns to rule over believing Israel.
(4) The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31–34). This covenant provides the basis by which God will bless Israel in the future—Israel will enjoy forgiveness of sins through the work of Jesus on the cross and is also unconditional.
If these covenants are understood according to their normal meaning, then they call for a future blessing of believing, national Israel in the land under Messiah’s rule. These covenants will be fulfilled in the Millennium.
The church is the bride of Christ, the object of Christ’s love, not His wrath (Ephesians 5:25). It would be a contradiction of the very relationship of Christ and the church for the church to go through the punishments of the Tribulation. There are several scriptures that state that the church will be kept from the Tribulation, such as: “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!” (Romans 5:9) The statement “wrath” is emphatic by it's placement in the Greek text, and is also definite by use of the article used in the word. Both of these factors show that it is not just any wrath that is referred to, but a specific wrath—the wrath of the Tribulation. It's also stated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; and Revelation 3:10.
The signs of Matthew 24 (and many other passages) were given to Israel concerning the second coming of Christ; no signs, however, were given to the church to anticipate the rapture (which means it will come suddenly). “The church was told to live in the knowledge of the imminent coming of the Lord to transform them in His presence. (John 14:2–3; Acts 1:11; 1 Corinthians 15:51–52; Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Timothy 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:3–4).
Nature of the Tribulation. The Tribulation is a time of the outpouring of the wrath of God (1 Thessalonians 1:10; Revelation 6:16-17; Revelation 11:18; Revelation 14:19; Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16:1, Revelation 16:19); it is a time of punishment (Isaiah 24:20–21); a time of trouble (Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 12:1); a time of great destruction (Joel 1:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:3); a time of desolation (Zephaniah 1:14, 15); a time of judgment (Revelation 14:7; Revelation 16:5; Revelation 19:2). The church is the object of Christ’s love, so it can not be present during the Tribulation. Everyone who is part of the Church, is saved and our sins have already been judged by God and paid for by Christ on the cross. There is no reason for us to be judged again because we are totally forgiven of all our sins and God sees us as pure as Christ. (Romans 8:1; Galatians 3:27 etc.) Again, there is no reason for the church to be on the earth during the Tribulation.
Some say that the tribulation is a time of Satan's wrath, but that is not what God says. Yes, Satan will be on earth and will be full of wrath, but he will be there because God is allowing it because it is part of God's plan. But God says the Tribulation is a time of His wrath poured out in judgment upon an unbelieving world, and He will use Satan to do part of it. (Isaiah 24:1; Isaiah 26:21; Zephaniah 1:18; Revelation 6:16–17; Revelation 11:18; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:1–2, etc.).
Purposes of the Tribulation. Again, the first purpose of the Tribulation is to bring about the conversion of Israel, which will be done through God’s discipline. Remember that the signs of the Tribulation which are about His Wrath, are called "birth pangs" (Matthew 24:8 etc) because God will be bringing about the birth of Israel as a Holy Nation. (Jeremiah 30:7; Ezekiel 20:37; Daniel 12:1; Zechariah 13:8–9). The second purpose is to judge unbelieving people and nations (Isaiah 26:21; Jeremiah 25:32–33; 2 Thessalonians 2:12). Again we see there is no reason for the Church to be present during the Tribulation, and that it would be a contradiction of God's promises to us who are saved if we were here for it.
Hopefully this will help you understand even more why the church can not be here during the tribulation.
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Post by Cindy on Sept 12, 2016 11:05:34 GMT -5
I thought of something else I wanted to quickly point out that I forgot to do before when we were discussing the gentiles and how God dealt with them (us) in the OT. I wanted to remind you of the book of Jonah, as God specifically sent Jonah to the gentiles to warn them that He would destroy them if they did not repent. Jonah didn't want to go, as he, like most Jew's hated the people in Nineveh and considered them the enemy of the Jew's.
According to 2 Kings 14:25 Jonah prophesied during the reign of Jeroboam II, (c. 782–753 BC), when the king on the throne of Nineveh was Ashur-Dan III. He had begun a period of conquest, & it was probably after one fight that Jonah arrived. There were nearly a million people in and around Nineveh, and the city was surrounded by an inner wall and an outer wall, as well as great towers. The huge inner wall was 50 feet wide and 100 feet high and almost 8 miles long. The outer wall encompassed fields & smaller towns occupying an area with a circumference of about 60 miles. It was the center of the rising empire of Assyria. The Assyrians were a ruthless, cruel people who had no pity for their enemies.
The point being that God sent Jonah to tell them that if they did not repent of their sin, that He would destroy them, and amazingly, they did repent! For once, we gentiles did the right thing. Because of that, God did not destroy them. Sadly their repentance only lasted lasted for a little over one generation, but that's still one generation that could be saved. Most importantly this book shows that God loves the gentiles and never gave up on them, even going so far as to send a Jewish prophet to them! It also shows that God did not hold them responsible for following Israel's laws, but only for the knowledge of His Truth that they had.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Sept 14, 2016 18:05:19 GMT -5
Wonderful!! Thank you so much Cindy!
I especially was helped to understand why the church wouldn't go thru the tribulation when you said:
"The church is the object of Christ’s love, so it can not be present during the Tribulation. Everyone who is part of the Church, is saved and our sins have already been judged by God and paid for by Christ on the cross. There is no reason for us to be judged again because we are totally forgiven of all our sins and God sees us as pure as Christ. (Romans 8:1; Galatians 3:27 etc.) Again, there is no reason for the church to be on the earth during the Tribulation."
That and the purpose of the tribulation is for the Jews.
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Post by Cindy on Sept 16, 2016 11:18:54 GMT -5
Wonderful!! Thank you so much Cindy!
I especially was helped to understand why the church wouldn't go thru the tribulation when you said:
"The church is the object of Christ’s love, so it can not be present during the Tribulation. Everyone who is part of the Church, is saved and our sins have already been judged by God and paid for by Christ on the cross. There is no reason for us to be judged again because we are totally forgiven of all our sins and God sees us as pure as Christ. (Romans 8:1; Galatians 3:27 etc.) Again, there is no reason for the church to be on the earth during the Tribulation."
That and the purpose of the tribulation is for the Jews.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Sept 16, 2016 17:42:47 GMT -5
That will be great!!!
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Post by Cindy on Sept 19, 2016 11:01:04 GMT -5
I almost forgot! I'd like to try and do this in the right order so before we discuss the rapture, I want to point out two things that "might" happen before the rapture. They do not "have" to happen before the rapture, but many teachers think that one or both might happen before the rapture. Both of these are wars. One is a war that's spoken about in Psalm 83 and the other is a war that's spoken about in Ezekiel 38-39. Of course there are many other scriptures that speak of both wars, but those are the main ones.
Teachers used to think that the Ezekiel 38-39 war was the same as the Gog/Magog war of Rev 20. However, with closer study of the two, it becomes obvious that Ezekiel is not talking about the war of Armageddon, which is what Revelation 20 is talking about.
I find these two wars fascinating because they are something we can look for in the news right now, and both have been getting closer! Let me start by sharing who will be involved in each war.
The nations involved in the Psalm 83 war will be:
Edom - which is the Palestinians and Southern Jordan
Ishmaelites - which is Saudi Arabia
Moab - which is the Palestinians and central Jordan
Hagrites - which is the Egyptians
Gebal - which is Hezbollah and Northern Jordanians
Ammon - which is the Palestinians and Northern Jordan
Amalek - which is the Arabs of the Sinai area
Philista - which is Hamas of Gaza
Tyre - which is Hezbollah and Southern Lebanese
Assyria - which is the Syrians and Northern Iraq.
Notice that these are all part of Isis!
There are a few other scriptures that are important to know about this too. Ezekiel 35 seems to identify the Arab countries that surround Israel today & will be part of this war. Psalm 83 says that the countries that surround Israel, her immediate neighbors, will start a war to try and wipe out Israel as a nation. Other scriptures like Zechariah 12:6 show that Israel will win this war. Winning this war will enlarge Israel's borders and increase their natural resources. Also many teachers think that near the end of this war is when Israel will most likely destroy Damascus completely so that it will never be rebuilt, which will fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 17 and Jeremiah 19. Also if Ezekiel 34- 39 are written consecutively, then it's possible that the Psalm 83 war will be the first war or rather the next war to happen. We have already begun to see that God is putting everything into place for this war to begin!
These graphics might help you see what it will look like:
 
The other possible war to happen before the rapture is the war of Ezekiel 38-39.
The countries involved in this war are: Russia, Turkey, Iran, Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia.
I'll post a graphic that shows which countries are involved in this one and gives you the biblical names for these countries:
I find it fascinating that up until recently Russia showed no interest in Israel or the mid east really, until suddenly she began to make herself known once again! When I first heard about her sending troops to the Ukraine I was astonished! I knew it was the beginning of Russia getting herself into a position where she could attack Israel. If you look at this map, you can get an idea of what Russia is doing. Notice that she's getting as close to the borders of the countries that surround Israel as she can. (the arrow is pointing from Israel to Russia on the map)
Exciting times to live in aren't they? Well, these then are two possible wars that could happen before the rapture. Again, the rapture could happen first but we don't know it will for sure. We just may get to see one or possibly both of these wars! It sure has been interesting though to watch how God is making things happen!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Sept 19, 2016 18:12:42 GMT -5
Wow! Thank you so much....you explained it better than I ever heard it before!
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Post by Cindy on Sept 20, 2016 12:09:45 GMT -5
you're welcome! It's interesting watching how God is preparing everything isn't it?
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