fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383 
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Post by fearnot on Jun 16, 2016 15:29:04 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy for taking such careful care and time, to explain and answer all my questions.
In a way, it seems like Adam and Eve and satan, share something no other people or angels did.....in that they both were perfect at one time, beautiful, and had a special closeness to God.
Yet, they both destroyed that perfection...would that be right do you think?
I know the 1/3 of the angels that rebelled with Lucifer, were perfect also ( before they rebelled) but it doesn't seem they had the same unique relationship that Lucifer/satan had?
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Post by Cindy on Jun 17, 2016 12:00:48 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy for taking such careful care and time, to explain and answer all my questions.
In a way, it seems like Adam and Eve and satan, share something no other people or angels did.....in that they both were perfect at one time, beautiful, and had a special closeness to God.
Yet, they both destroyed that perfection...would that be right do you think?
I know the 1/3 of the angels that rebelled with Lucifer, were perfect also ( before they rebelled) but it doesn't seem they had the same unique relationship that Lucifer/satan had? |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 18, 2016 13:23:10 GMT -5
I read this yesterday and forgot to thank you for answering.
Our landlord upgraded our server ( because more people are using it), only so far the upgrade has made it worse, very very slow times, times out, you are not connected etc.
He is going to call them and see if they can fix it again (hopefully better this time ahem!)
All of that to say, when I realized yesterday, I didn't reply to your reply, the server started giving me trouble, and then I had to babysit, and do stuff, before I know it was dinner, and that's when everybody here for sure gets online.
Then it informed me I was not connected (for about an hour of trying), and in disgust, I decided to read and go to bed.....so this morning it is working....for now.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 21, 2016 11:43:12 GMT -5
I read this yesterday and forgot to thank you for answering.
Our landlord upgraded our server ( because more people are using it), only so far the upgrade has made it worse, very very slow times, times out, you are not connected etc.
He is going to call them and see if they can fix it again (hopefully better this time ahem!)
All of that to say, when I realized yesterday, I didn't reply to your reply, the server started giving me trouble, and then I had to babysit, and do stuff, before I know it was dinner, and that's when everybody here for sure gets online.
Then it informed me I was not connected (for about an hour of trying), and in disgust, I decided to read and go to bed.....so this morning it is working....for now.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 22, 2016 8:21:03 GMT -5
As far as I know, Eva has not seen these last two posts, so I'll post them on this page hoping she'll see them.yes, and they disobeyed Him. Remember when I told you about how God told them to spread out over the earth and they refused and settled in Babylon instead and made that tower? That was the last time He spoke directly with them as a group. They knew His laws and how to worship Him and how to please Him, but chose not to. They chose to make their own gods and do what they wanted to instead. After that, God found one man out of all of them that was still obeying Him, the man who's name was changed to Abraham, and God made a nation out of His descendants - Israel. We know too that if one single person out of all the gentiles alive had chosen to try to please God, that God would have moved heaven and earth to help them and they would have been saved. Because none did, (except for Abraham), God left them to do what they wanted. God never forces Himself on anyone.
It's the same thing we see today. People know about God and they know that all they have to do is read the bible to discover the truth and how to please Him, and they choose not to. (or, if bibles are not available to them, they know that they only have to seek Him through prayer) They choose instead to do what they want to do, and therefore, God is allowing them to do just that. One day soon, they will all be judged, right along with all the gentiles that have lived since the flood, and all will be sent to Hell. (God will also judge the Jew's who chose not to obey Him, and they too will be sent to Hell.) God does not see people as Jew's, gentiles, Greeks, Americans, Europeans, etc. He sees each person for the individual they are and He judges each person individually based on the knowledge they had of Him and what they did with it.
God is completely fair and just. He does not force anyone to choose to obey Him. He lets us make our own choices, knowing that one day we will have to answer for the choices we have made.
To us, what happened during Abraham's lifetime seems a long time after the flood, but for them, it wasn't. Abraham was the 10th generation from Noah and therefore could have even known Noah, just as Noah could have known Adam and Eve. If we can know someone in the 7th generation of our family, then it's entirely possible for them with their much longer lives to have known someone from the 10th generation.
We might as well talk about this next then. You guys will have to do some reading and then we'll discuss it tomorrow, God willing. Happy Reading!
“I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.” (Romans 9:1–5)
“It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”” (Romans 9:6–9)
“Then the LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.” (Genesis 18:10)
“Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”” (Romans 9:10–12)
“Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. The LORD answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. The LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.”” (Genesis 25:21–23)
“When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. The first to come out was red, and his whole body was like a hairy garment; so they named him Esau. After this, his brother came out, with his hand grasping Esau’s heel; so he was named Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when Rebekah gave birth to them.” (Genesis 25:24–26)
“Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”” (Romans 9:13)
““I have loved you,” says the LORD. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” the LORD says. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.” Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.” But this is what the LORD Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the LORD—even beyond the borders of Israel!’” (Malachi 1:2–5)
To conclude Abraham descendants are all people who have respect to the Lord, right? I remember asking you once before about the verse where God says Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated...
But I forgot how you explained it?
Because on first reading it sounds like a type of election where even before they were born God chose Jacob but not Esau....but I think you said that was not really what it was saying?
In Romans 9:1–5 Paul tells us about 7 blessings that Israel as a nation had been given, and yet even with all those blessings they had not recognized their Savior and did not accept Him. This broke Paul's heart. Reading about all those blessings that had been given to Israel, someone might ask, "If God gave them all of that, and did all of that for them, then did God's Word fail to do what He wanted it to do, since they did not accept Christ as their Messiah?" Paul tells us the answer to that question next: “It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”” (Romans 9:6–9) His answer would have upset many of the Jew's for he was saying there were two kinds of Israel and two kinds of "election". First, God chose physical, historical Israel by selecting Abraham & his descendants through which He accomplished many things, including the establishment of Scripture and the line of descent through which Jesus would be born. Second, God chose certain individuals to be saved. In other words, not everyone who was born as a physical descendant of Israel was saved, and some who were not born to physical Israel were saved. This is why Paul quoted the verse from Genesis: “Then the LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.” (Genesis 18:10) Abraham's first born son was Ishmael, who was born to Abraham by Hagar, Sarah's maid, but God did not choose him. After Ishmael was born, Abraham had a son by Sarah, Isaac, and God chose him to be part of the covenant. Later, after Sarah died, Abraham married Keturah and had 6 more sons by her, but God did not choose any of them either. (1 Chronicles 1:32) Tradition in those days was that the first born son always got the largest blessing, the largest inheritance, but God did not do things the way the world did, He did things His own way, and chose the second born son of Abraham to continue the line of descent that would lead to the birth of Jesus.
Since Abraham had been the father of both Isaac and Ishamel as well as keturah's sons, but his sons had different mothers, Paul continued to explain by saying that God not only chose the son of one mother over the son of another mother, but also one twin over another twin: “Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”” (Romans 9:10–12) God chose the twin who was born second over the one who was born first, again doing the opposite of what the world would have done. Not only that, but we're told in that God chose this son before he was even born! So the baby obviously had not done anything to cause God to choose him. God did not choose this second son because of His foreknowledge of what he would do in the future either. This is telling us that people are chosen simply because of God’s choice, not our lineage, merit, or achievements.
Finally Paul says: “Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” (Romans 9:13–16) That first sentence tends to confuse many of us. Paul is quoting from Malachi which says: ““I have loved you,” says the LORD. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” the LORD says. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.” Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.” But this is what the LORD Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the LORD—even beyond the borders of Israel!’” (Malachi 1:2–5) When we say we love or hate someone, we are talking about how we feel emotionally about them, but that is not what God is talking about when He says this. This is talking about God's commitment to a Messianic line and promise. So this is showing God's priority - who He has chosen to be in the Messianic line. In fact, the verses that Paul is quoting from are not talking about only the men, Jacob and Esau, but are speaking about their descendants, the nation of Israel and the nation of Edom which descended from Esau.
But let's look at what Malachi is saying in context. Esau had rejected his birthright & held both his birthright and the promises of God in contempt. Moses had told Israel not to despise the Edomites. (Deuteronomy 23:7) But Esau's descendants, the Edomites, believed that Israel had taken the land of Canaan by deception. Because of that, they were constantly trying to harm Israel. Even after Israel was divided into two lands, Israel and Judah, Edom continued to harass them. Just before Malachi wrote this, they had cooperated with the Assyrian invasion of Judah, and when the Judeans were taken into exile they claimed the land for themselves. For these reasons they came under the Lord’s judgment (Ezekiel 35:5–15; Ezekiel 36:1–15). When the Judean exiles returned to the region of Jerusalem the Edomites further opposed them. This was the situation when Malachi heard the Lord saying, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau”. When God says He hates Esau, He is simply saying that He had favored Jacob with a special privilege. So God's "hatred" of Esau was only the other side of His loyalty to His covenant with Israel.
Our human nature wants to call God unjust for choosing one person over the other, and Paul was aware of that. That's why he wrote this: “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” (Romans 9:14–16) Paul is reminding us that if God chose people based only on righteousness, then no one would ever be saved, because we all deserve to go to hell. Paul quoted Exodus 33:19 here to show that God extends His mercy and compassion according to His Will, and not ours, because we all deserve to be condemned, but God chooses to give us mercy instead. Because of that, God chose one man, one family, and one nation to bring us the Messiah who would die for the sins of us all. When we realize that God could react toward us (mankind) in raw power sending us all to hell or destroying us all, it's amazing that He chose instead to exercise mercy and compassion and choose to save many of us instead. Not only that, but God's choices never violate any of His attributes. (Some of His attributes are: omnipotence, omniscience, eternality, glory, sovereignty, unfailing love, His compassion and mercy, wisdom, justice, righteousness, holiness, etc) It's hard to understand, but God's sovereignty does not violate our free will either. The problem is that we can't really understand all of this completely. Some people get very upset because they can't understand it. But if we could understand everything about God, then He wouldn't be God, He wouldn't be any more intelligent than we are, and we know that God's wisdom is far beyond our intelligence! Therefore, when I come to something like this that we humans are simply not able to understand, I simply accept it, knowing that God is always right, and He loves me so I have nothing to fear from it.
Finally, let me quote from a commentary as I think it sums this up better than I could:
God’s gracious and merciful plan does not violate human freedom. To select Jacob over Esau reflects God’s choice to have the nation Israel come through Jacob’s descendants, not Esau’s. In saying God “hated” Esau, Paul did not imply that God excluded him from salvation. For Messiah’s line, God chose the tribe of Judah (not the most noble of characters), rather than the descendants of Joseph (a true believer). In that sense, he “hated” Joseph but “loved” Judah. God executes His redemptive, gracious plan as He pleases. Humans have no claim on God. So, on the national level, God sovereignly decided to have mercy on Israel (including the patriarchs). Nevertheless, Abraham’s physical children cannot claim they are automatically “elected” for salvation and are therefore “righteous” apart from genuine faith in Christ. God’s gracious election also operates for salvation: God has determined to save those who trust in His Son. God will have mercy on whom He wills to have mercy, and no claim even of Jewish descent will override what the divine Potter chooses to do. The Apologetics Study Bible
We can discuss this more if you'd like to.
This time the meaning sunk in!! I think its the word 'hated' meaning for most people today, does not mean the same as back then.
I wonder if the Hebrew or Aramaic? word 'hated' actually has a meaning more like.... God's sovereign choice?
Let me see if I can say all of this a bit more simply:
In the beginning God created Adam and Eve and they were perfect, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. They had a good relationship with God and spoke with Him daily. They knew what He required of them and they loved Him. But Satan came and put doubt in Eve's mind and she sinned, then Adam knowingly sinned as well and their minds and hearts became corrupted by sin. Because of that sin, the whole earth and everything on it became tainted with sin and began to decay and die. God could no longer have a relationship with Adam and Eve like He used to, but He had a plan to save them and the rest of humanity.
Adam and Eve then had children who were conceived and born in sin and were themselves corrupted by it as would be all humans from that time on as sin is like a contagious virus that spreads quickly attacking everyone. Sin not only spreads, it also tends to grow and accumulate so the people and the earth became darker and darker with sin. Finally everyone was so wicked that God had to wipe out everyone and everything He had made on the earth, except for one man and his family who still worshiped Him and tried to please Him. That man was Noah.
After the flood, sin again began to spread and accumulate. Mankind again quickly rebelled against God, and things continued to go downhill. But there was again one man who still loved God and tried to please him, that man was Abram, and God chose him and his wife Sarai, later changing his name to Abraham and hers to Sarah.
As I said before, sin spreads and accumulates so with each generation it was getting worse and worse. But there was never a time after Adam and Eve that anyone born could live with God and have a relationship with Him because every single person born was wicked and full of sin, and therefore deserved nothing but to go to Hell. We are used to sin and we don't see it as being as bad as it is. It must have seemed horrible to Adam and Eve but as time went on, people very quickly became used to it as it was part of them, so it seemed normal to them very quickly. Just as people who live with chronic pain, have to be very careful because pain is no longer something that causes them to think that something is wrong and that they should see a doctor, so people with chronic sin, (which was everyone) no longer realized that sin was something terribly wrong that they desperately needed to be rid of. Sin corrupts everything - our thoughts, our feelings, and because of that our words and actions. There was no one on earth that was "better" than anyone else. Not even Abraham or Noah or even Enoch, who was taken to heaven without dying. (Genesis 5:22–24) The reason God took him to be with Him in heaven was because Enoch loved God and did his best to please Him all the time for over 300 years. Enoch still sinned though, but because he tried so hard to please God in an ungodly world, God decided to keep him from experiencing the wages of sin, which is death. Because our minds are corrupted and because sin is so much a part of us and our world, it's very hard for us to understand just how sinful and how corrupted we are. The more we grow in our faith though, the more God changes us to be like Jesus, the more of our sinfulness we see and the better we understand just how awful sin is and what it does to us.
God chose Noah and his family, and later Abraham and his family, not because they were righteous and good, but simply because it was His choice and those particular people did still try to please Him even though they were by no means perfect. When God first called Abram, He made a promise to him that He would make him into a great nation and bless him, and bless those who were good to him and curse those who were not. (Genesis 12:2–3) Later, God made a covenant with him promising to give his descendants the land of Israel in Genesis 15:18–21.
From Abraham's children, God chose Isaac to be the child of God's promise to Abraham, the promise that would someday bring about the Messiah who would save the people of earth from sin. From each generation after Isaac, God chose another person to continue the line of promise that would eventually bring about the birth of the Messiah. God chose one sinner over another sinner to be in that line. He did not choose one person because they were better than another person. In Deuteronomy 7:7–8 and Deuteronomy 9:6 we're told that God didn't choose these people to become the physical nation of Israel and the physical line that the Messiah would come from because of anything special about them, but instead because "He loved them" and because of the promise He made to Abraham. When God says it's because He loved them in these scriptures, He is not speaking of loving them like we mean when we say it. He is saying the same thing here that we talked about when He said He hated Esau but loved Jacob. In other words, He chose them because it was His sovereign choice.
However, when God chooses someone, He always does so for a reason, and the reason He chose Abraham and his descendants to create the nation of Israel was so that they would learn His commands and what He requires of us, and would be holy, and teach others about Him. He said they would be a holy nation of priests and would teach others about Him. That is why He constantly told them not to copy the ways of the world for the world was full of sin and if they were to be the opposite of that. They were to first learn His ways, and then live according to His ways, so they could show the world what pleases God, and bring others to salvation. It's really amazing how quickly God's plan came about, because when God chose Abraham's grandson Jacob to continue the line of blessing, God changed his name to Israel. Jacob's (Israel's) sons would become the fathers of the 12 tribes of Israel!
Let me repeat myself again: everyone that lived was a sinner who deserved nothing but hell. Out of all those sinners, God in His mercy chose some people who He would teach so that they in turn could teach the rest of the world about Him, and everyone could be saved. At the same time, God was also choosing people who would eventually bring the Messiah into the world. God did not save or create Israel because they were good or better, but because He wanted to save everyone!
From the time that God changes Jacob's name to Israel, in Genesis 32:28, on we are continually shown how wicked everyone, both Israel and the gentiles were, and how different the people who did try to please God were from the rest of the world. God shows us their sins so we can learn from them. For example, He does not want us to read about Jacob's sins and think how bad Jacob was, He wants us to see ourselves when we read about the sins of others.
Lastly, in the old testament, you will see names such as “the Amorites” which is just another name for the for Canaanites in general, and which for the most part are simply called "the gentiles" in the new testament. The only time we have to be specific about which group of gentiles God is talking about is when we are studying prophecy concerning the tribulation, so we will know exactly who is going to attack who. We'll get into that later though. For now, we don't really have to be concerned with who is who, and can simply consider everyone gentiles except for those who belong to the tribes of Israel.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 22, 2016 10:26:25 GMT -5
As I said before, God's purpose in creating the nation of Israel was to raise up a family line that would eventually produce the Messiah, and secondly it was to raise up a nation of holy priests that would teach the world about Him so all could be saved.
Of course God knew that Israel would be just as wicked as the gentiles were. They couldn't help it as they were just as full of sin as everyone else. But when God decides to do something, He always makes sure it somehow works out, no matter how uncooperative we are.
From the very beginning, when God created Adam and Eve, He did so with the idea of having a relationship with them in mind. Until they sinned, they had a great relationship with Him. Afterward,God found very few who were interested in having a relationship with Him. One of the saddest stories to me is found in Exodus 20:18-20 and repeated in Deuteronomy 5. It shows how God had a relationship with Moses and spoke with him regularly. God wanted to speak with everyone in the Israelite camp, and even began to do so. But the people were so frightened, that they asked God not to speak to them! They asked Him to speak to Moses instead and have Moses tell them what He said. Of course being so frightened at the time, they also swore they would obey whatever Moses told them. It was at this time that they were given God's commandments. To me, it shows though how our sin nature shies away from having any communication with God. Our flesh wants nothing to do with Him and Satan and the world encourage us not to have anything to do with Him too. Satan hates it when we read and study our bibles and talk to the Lord about what we're reading. He will do anything he can to stop us, because he knows that this is the one thing that will enable us to defeat him and allow us to live a victorious life. He tries to put doubts in our minds about God's Word; he tells us we can't understand it; he whispers all kinds of lies to us to get us to stop reading it and talking to God about it. He doesn't mind at all if we read a short piece of it out of "duty" though, because he knows that's not likely to get us anywhere. He wants to keep us from getting to know our Lord and having a close relationship with Him, so anything he can put in our way to prevent it, or convince us we don't have time for it, etc. he will. During the time of Moses, he used fear to prevent the Israelites from having a relationship with God and learning from Him. Since then, he has used many of these same tricks on individuals and even worked through churches to get his lies out and keep people away from God's Word. As I've often told my children and grandchildren, there is absolutely nothing on this earth more important then your Bible. Nothing, and no one!
As we read the OT, we see how God works with the nation of Israel, first teaching them his commandments and laws, then teaching them how to worship Him, and where to do so. When we read the laws God gave them, it's easy to see that God covered absolutely every single area of their lives with His laws. There were certain ways they had to wash their dishes, build their homes, certain clothes to wear, certain food they could eat, and a certain way it had to be washed and prepared; there was even a right and wrong way to charge people for things they were selling; and there were certain people they could marry, and a certain way that was to be handled. There was a certain way the birth of a baby was to be dealt with, and even a way to deal with it if a man ejaculated in his sleep, and when a woman had a menstrual period. Just about everything in their daily lives was regulated in some way so that no matter what they were doing, it would cause the Israelites to think about their God. (and hopefully obey Him). When we read all the regulations they seem overwhelming, but once you start practicing them and get used to them, they became just another routine, and sadly the people didn't think about God as much as they should have. The regulations did cause the people to become different from the rest of the world, since no one else lived that way. But they weren't supposed to just be different, they were supposed to be different because they were holy. Because of their sinfulness though, it did not work out that way. They constantly sinned against God, no matter how much He blessed them.
We continue to see them sin against God all through the OT, and God would always try to turn them back to Himself, but they would refuse so eventually He would have to discipline them. When He would discipline them, they would finally repent and turn to Him and ask Him to save them (again) and He would do so. But very soon after that, they would be right back sinning again, and the cycle would start all over. This continues on for a very long time in the OT. We see God constantly trying to continue to teach them, but see them sinning yet again, and finally being disciplined, then repenting and being saved yet again. We have to remember though that these scriptures were written not just to show us how sinful Israel was, but to show us what we are like too. We can't say anything against them, because we do the very same things. “Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.” (1 Corinthians 10:6) “These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!” (1 Corinthians 10:11–12)
I want to remind you of one last thing while you reflect on how God had set Israel apart and was teaching them and growing them up to be His Holy people. This is true for us now, just as it was true for Israel. God expects results. He is merciful and just, so when someone sins in ignorance because they do not know better, that person is not judged as harshly as the person who has been taught that it is sin and is wrong. When the person who knows it is a sin does it anyway, they are judged harshly for being disobedient. The more God teaches someone, the more that person understands, the more they are held accountable for. We would not hold anyone accountable for drinking poison if they didn't know it was poison...neither would God. But once the person is aware that it is poison, then they are held accountable to not drink it.
““That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.” (Luke 12:47–48)
“For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open. Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him.”” (Luke 8:17–18)
“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.” (John 15:22)
Reflect then on all the hundreds of years that God taught Israel, and expected her to be His priests, but they never did the job He had prepared them for.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 22, 2016 15:34:13 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy:
I wonder if the Catholic church twists Exodus 20:18-20 and Deuteronomy 5, as the 'reason' people should not read the Bible on their own but only have the Priest read it to them and 'explain' it to them?
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Post by Cindy on Jun 24, 2016 12:11:39 GMT -5
I've never heard that they use that for it. In the beginning people didn't have copies of God's Word so the only place they could hear it was from their priest. When the printing press was invented and the bible had been translated into English, the RCC wouldn't allow their people to own their own copy. The only way they could keep their power over the people was to prevent them from having access to God's Word themselves so that's what they tried to do. When questioned, they just came up with excuses such as the local people couldn't possibly understand it, etc.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 24, 2016 15:54:20 GMT -5
Thanks Cindy....I was just thinking if they were pressed to justify it Biblically ( silly me), they might misuse this scripture and twist it as yet another proof people needed to be taught the correct understanding of the Church rules etc
When in fact, the Bible says no such thing.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 25, 2016 9:40:25 GMT -5
you could be right hon.... just because I haven't heard it doesn't mean that they don't use it lol. Not much would surprise me about them at this point. Sadly the protestant denominations have gotten just about as bad as the RCC now, just for different reasons. I hate how the church is so filled with false teaching.
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Post by evafromgreece on Jun 26, 2016 9:43:01 GMT -5
I writing this in my own words, lets see if I corectly understood this. God chose Jacob instead of Esau, because He foreknew the things that Esau would do in the future. But that didnt mean Jacob was not a sinner. We all are, and God chooses people for certain perpuses because He loves them.
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Post by evafromgreece on Jun 26, 2016 10:00:14 GMT -5
We continue to see them sin against God all through the OT, and God would always try to turn them back to Himself, but they would refuse so eventually He would have to discipline them. When He would discipline them, they would finally repent and turn to Him and ask Him to save them (again) and He would do so. But very soon after that, they would be right back sinning again, and the cycle would start all over. This continues on for a very long time in the OT. We see God constantly trying to continue to teach them, but see them sinning yet again, and finally being disciplined, then repenting and being saved yet again. We have to remember though that these scriptures were written not just to show us how sinful Israel was, but to show us what we are like too. We can't say anything against them, because we do the very same things. “Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.” (1 Corinthians 10:6) “These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!” (1 Corinthians 10:11–12) Read more: fresh-hope.com/thread/2297/tribulation-more#ixzz4ChK8cQKqIts good to be reminded of this. Sometimes I fell to be very critical about the Jews , and try to find the historical consequences of their denial to Jesus. But truly we are not any better... |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Jun 27, 2016 21:52:29 GMT -5
Eva I love your thoughts, they seems so well understood to me. :-)
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Post by Cindy on Jun 28, 2016 11:12:37 GMT -5
I writing this in my own words, lets see if I corectly understood this. God chose Jacob instead of Esau, because He foreknew the things that Esau would do in the future. But that didnt mean Jacob was not a sinner. We all are, and God chooses people for certain perpuses because He loves them. We continue to see them sin against God all through the OT, and God would always try to turn them back to Himself, but they would refuse so eventually He would have to discipline them. When He would discipline them, they would finally repent and turn to Him and ask Him to save them (again) and He would do so. But very soon after that, they would be right back sinning again, and the cycle would start all over. This continues on for a very long time in the OT. We see God constantly trying to continue to teach them, but see them sinning yet again, and finally being disciplined, then repenting and being saved yet again. We have to remember though that these scriptures were written not just to show us how sinful Israel was, but to show us what we are like too. We can't say anything against them, because we do the very same things. “Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.” (1 Corinthians 10:6) “These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!” (1 Corinthians 10:11–12) Its good to be reminded of this. Sometimes I fell to be very critical about the Jews , and try to find the historical consequences of their denial to Jesus. But truly we are not any better... Eva I love your thoughts, they seems so well understood to me. :-)
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Post by Cindy on Jun 28, 2016 11:53:12 GMT -5
I want to start with something I wrote before:
I want to remind you of one last thing while you reflect on how God had set Israel apart and was teaching them and growing them up to be His Holy people. This is true for us now, just as it was true for Israel. God expects results. He is merciful and just, so when someone sins in ignorance because they do not know better, that person is not judged as harshly as the person who has been taught that it is sin and is wrong. When the person who knows it is a sin does it anyway, they are judged harshly for being disobedient. The more God teaches someone, the more that person understands, the more they are held accountable for. We would not hold anyone accountable for drinking poison if they didn't know it was poison...neither would God. But once the person is aware that it is poison, then they are held accountable to not drink it. (Luke 12:47–48; Luke 8:17–18; John 15:22 ) Reflect then on all the hundreds of years that God taught Israel, and expected her to be His priests, but they never did the job He had prepared them for.
When Jesus was born, Israel had the very best theologians in the world at that time. They knew God's Word and had been studying it for years and therefore thought they knew just exactly what to look for in their Messiah and when to look for Him. When Jesus was born most of the middle east was aware that Israel was expecting their Messiah to show up at any time, because they'd heard the Jew's talking about it. While Israel had learned some things from God's discipline in the past, they had not learned the most important thing of all, which is that God is concerned with our hearts, our attitudes and not just with us "keeping our religious duties". Certainly, there were always some people who understood that. God always has some and always did right from the very beginning. Those people who really understood are those who were truly saved, and yet often they were looked down on and even persecuted by the religious leaders of their day. So while there were a few that were truly saved at the time Jesus came, the vast majority who thought of themselves as religious and righteous, were unsaved and would remain that way because they had hardened their hearts toward God and His Word. During the time Jesus taught, there were always a few that were saved, but again out of the thousands who came to hear Him speak, most of them remained unsaved, because their hearts were hardened. (often 10,000 to 20,000 or more people came to hear Him speak) The same is true in our day. Most of the people who the world thinks of as Christians, are unsaved.
The only reason the rest of the middle east knew that the Jew's were expecting their Messiah is because they'd heard about it through gossip and rumors. It wasn't because the Jew's had seriously tried to teach others about their God. This was Israel's biggest problem and sin. They thought of God as being "their God" as though He didn't have anything to do with anyone else in the world. They thought of themselves as being special because God had chosen them and made them a nation, and called them His own people. But they forgot what God had chosen them to do. Because they thought they were so special, forgetting that God had told them that they were NOT any different then anyone else, they acted like they were better than everyone else and acted like even being near a Gentile would cause them to be "dirty". Since most of the entire world is Gentile, this caused everyone to hate the Jew's. No one likes to be told that their so sinful and dirty that a religious person can't even be in the same room with them! No one likes to over hear a Jew praying to their God and thanking God that they were not born a gentile. So the Jew's did the exact opposite of what God had commanded them to do. They were to be a holy nation of priests that taught the rest of the world about Him. Instead they isolated themselves from the rest of the world and tried to keep God to themselves. We also need to recognize that the rest of the world had constantly treated them very badly long before they isolated themselves. Asking the Jew's to tell the world about their God doesn't sound like a hard thing to do, until we remember that the people they were supposed to be telling are people who had enslaved them, and killed their ancestors, etc. So Israel felt they had good reasons to isolate themselves from the rest of the world. They were also aware that when they had mingled with the gentiles in the past, that they had been tempted by the ways the gentiles lived and fallen into sin because of it and they did not want that to happen again. They knew God had told them to be separate from the world, but they took it the wrong way. Another of their errors was that they constantly forgot that God would help them live the way He commanded them to if they asked and instead they constantly tried to do it themselves, and failed miserably because of it. That's why they made up the over 600 laws to keep them from breaking God's laws. They tried to build a fence around God's law with the laws they made up so that they wouldn't ever sin, but of course that didn't work, because they never got that it was their hearts that God was interested in.
Realizing that, helps us understand again that they really weren't any different than we are.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Jun 28, 2016 15:49:47 GMT -5
I am still a little confused when you wrote this:
"They were also aware that when they had mingled with the gentiles in the past, that they had been tempted by the ways the gentiles lived and fallen into sin because of it and they did not want that to happen again. They knew God had told them to be separate from the world, but they took it the wrong way."
I am thinking there instead of looking down their noses at the gentiles, they should have been kind compassionate neighbors, pray for them, and most important have told them about the true God.
However, if it seems that the neighbor was not the least receptive to God, they could continue to be kind, but not be best buddies, and not join in the orgies, drinking fest, human sacrifices, and the like?
They should continue to be kind, compassionate, knowing that perhaps later on in time, the person might come to the Lord, but they ought to be separate ( especially if the neighbor had a sin that was very hard for them to resist).
Is that what you meant when you said: "but they took it the wrong way"?
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Post by Cindy on Jun 29, 2016 10:56:30 GMT -5
I am still a little confused when you wrote this:
"They were also aware that when they had mingled with the gentiles in the past, that they had been tempted by the ways the gentiles lived and fallen into sin because of it and they did not want that to happen again. They knew God had told them to be separate from the world, but they took it the wrong way."
I am thinking there instead of looking down their noses at the gentiles, they should have been kind compassionate neighbors, pray for them, and most important have told them about the true God.
However, if it seems that the neighbor was not the least receptive to God, they could continue to be kind, but not be best buddies, and not join in the orgies, drinking fest, human sacrifices, and the like?
They should continue to be kind, compassionate, knowing that perhaps later on in time, the person might come to the Lord, but they ought to be separate ( especially if the neighbor had a sin that was very hard for them to resist).
Is that what you meant when you said: "but they took it the wrong way"?
Anyway, to get back to the problem, God had taught Israel the difference between clean and unclean and had taught them that they had to be clean in order to worship Him. God told them to be separate from the rest of the people so they wouldn't become like them. Jesus showed us how we are to do that, and of course He showed them too but most ignored Him. The Jew's took all that clean and unclean teaching and be separate teaching and made it all about their outward bodies. They never got that it was about their hearts, not just their bodies. Yes, God wanted them to bathe and put on clean clothes before they came to worship Him - they'd do that for any King, so they'd better do it for God too. But God was trying to teach them to cleanse their hearts not just their clothes. When He told them to be separate, He did not mean that they should never speak to gentiles or befriend gentiles etc. anymore then He means that we should never speak to the unsaved. If we never spoke to them, we couldn't tell them about God, and because they never wanted to speak to the gentiles they never told them about God. They hid behind the idea of being separate. God told them just as He has us that it's our life style that separates us from the unsaved - or in their case the gentiles. But they didn't get it because they didn't want to get it. If we live the way the Lord tells us to, which in Israel's case then would have also included keeping the Sabbath, and all of God's laws, which God had said included loving Him with all their hearts and loving their neighbors too, then those who want nothing to do with God would most likely stay away from them, or at best, taunt them as they passed by, but those who liked what they saw, would ask about why they lived the way they did. At that point the Jew's could have told them about their God and another person would have been saved eventually. But because of their pride and other sins, the Jew's instead isolated themselves and would have nothing to do with gentiles at all.
If you think about it, it were so ingrained in them to separate from gentiles by the time Jesus came, that when they were putting Him on trial, they refused to go into Herod's or Pilates houses for the trials because if they did, they'd have been unclean and wouldn't have been able to eat the Passover. So these leaders were so religious that they wouldn't allow themselves to become unclean that way, but they would pay people to give false testimony about Jesus and planned to have Him killed! 
See what I mean though?
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Post by Cindy on Jun 29, 2016 10:58:04 GMT -5
I'm so frustrated because the Lord showed me something yesterday about the Trib that made so much sense and I know would have made things very clear for everyone and I can't for the life of me remember what He showed me! Please ask Him to remind me of it again ok?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Jun 29, 2016 16:38:58 GMT -5
That explained it!
I wasn't understanding the outward separation, from the inward.
Thank you it is clear now.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 30, 2016 11:09:11 GMT -5
That explained it!
I wasn't understanding the outward separation, from the inward.
Thank you it is clear now.  Any time! Sorry it took me so long to explain it.
OK, now we've seen how God dealt with all the people in the world. He finally chose one couple to begin the nation of Israel, not because He didn't like the Gentiles and not because those people were better than the Gentiles, but so He could eventually save the whole world through them. In order to do that, He had to protect that line of descent, because of anything happened to the people He'd chosen to be in that line, there would be no Savior. That's why we often see in the OT Satan using gentiles to try and kill off the descendants from that line, but God always saved someone so the line could continue. God's purpose from the very beginning, with Adam and Eve, were to have a people that He could have a personal love relationship with. That obviously ended when they sinned, but instead of giving up, God began His plan to send a Savior so that all who would put their trust in Him could be saved and spend eternity with Him in a perfect love relationship.
In order to do that, He had to not only select individuals who would be the blood relatives of that Savior when He was born, but He also had to instruct that larger group of people that became called Israel, so they would know His laws, and learn about Him, and therefore know what to expect of the Savior and know that they could trust Him. Most of the world insisted on doing things their own way and wanted nothing to do with God, and made that plain. So God allowed them to go their own way and reap the results, hoping to teach everyone how devastating sin is. When God told Israel to kill all the people who were currently in the land He was giving them, it was not only His judgement for those people's sin, but also to teach Israel what the result of sin was. In other words, teach Israel that if they became like them they too would be destroyed. So God set these people, Israel, apart, and gave them His laws, and taught them how to live and how to worship Him. God taught them all about Himself as well through His Word which He gave them and through the prophets He continually sent to them.
As we've said before, Israel became proud and thought of themselves as being better then anyone else because of this. What they didn't seem to understand was that the more God gives an individual or a nation, the more He requires from them. That's really no different than how we raise our children. We teach our children right from wrong and raise our children to become independent and think for themselves. When they do things that we know we have taught them is wrong, we punish them. The older they get, the more they know and understand, the more responsibility we give them - the more we expect from them. We wouldn't expect a 6 year old to babysit, but we would expect a teenager to be able to care for younger children properly and keep them safe.
This is how God works with everyone, both individuals and nations, including the nation of Israel. He has always worked this way, and because God never changes we know He always will work this way. So God raised Israel and taught them right from wrong, gave them the knowledge they needed in order to serve Him and become the holy nation of priests He wanted them to be. They had begun receiving God's Word over 1,400 years before Jesus came the first time. Many of the prophet Isaiah's prophecies about Jesus were given them over 700 years before Christ was born. So Israel had plenty of time to learn and grow and be what God had commanded them to be. God treated Israel like a father would treat a son, and when they'd grown some, like a husband would treat a wife. He loved them, protected them, disciplined them when they sinned, and brought them back into relationship when they repented. So God had every right to expect them to do His Will. (God had every right since He's God, even if He hadn't done all of that for them!)
God was not ignoring the Gentiles at this time. He still watched over every single person and everything was done according to His Will, for He is in control of everything. He loved the gentiles every bit as much as He loved Israel. He hated the sin of all of them, both Gentile and Jew. God had and still has everything planned right down to the micro second. We're told: “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.” (Galatians 4:4–5) It was no accident that Jesus was born when He was, and it's no accident that we have each been born where and when we were born. It will not be an accident when the Father sends Jesus to get His Church either, but will be "when the time had fully come" in other words, when the time is exactly right. Remember what God said to Abraham about when his descendants would inherit the land? “In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”” (Genesis 15:16) So God does everything when it's exactly the right time. We're told that “I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”” (Romans 11:25–27) That's what we are waiting for now, for the full number of Gentiles to come in, because God wants to save us as well as Israel.
Think about this for now: God gave Israel His laws, and His Word, and He did not give those things to us Gentiles. Therefore when the Jew's were judged by Him for sin, they were judged more harshly then the Gentiles were.
When Jesus came and was rejected by Israel, Jesus began a new covenant in His blood and created the Church, the Body of Christ. Since that time, the Gentiles have also had God's Word and also judged more harshly then before because they now have all they need to know right from wrong, how to please God and how to be saved. Nothing stands in their way except their own sin nature, which was also true of Israel.
Because of Israel's sin, God could not begin the Millennial Kingdom at Christ's first advent, and instead had to begin a new program called the Church, so the rest of the world could be saved. What then should God do with Israel? Should He just do away with them completely and figure they're not worth trying to work with any longer? Would any loving parent give up on their child because that child stubbornly continued to refuse to do what's right? We know that the Age of Grace which began with the Church has lasted a long time, and will continue until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, so what happens to Israel now that the Church has taken over her job of telling the world about God? Is the Church the "new Israel", or is there still an Israel and the Church as well?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 30, 2016 16:28:26 GMT -5
I was not sure if the questions at the end were for us, or what you are going to be discussing tomorrow?
but I think the 2 questions asking if God should give up on Israel would be no.
And would parents give up on a rebellious child and again the answer would be: no
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Post by Cindy on Jul 2, 2016 9:46:16 GMT -5
I was not sure if the questions at the end were for us, or what you are going to be discussing tomorrow?
but I think the 2 questions asking if God should give up on Israel would be no.
And would parents give up on a rebellious child and again the answer would be: no
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 2, 2016 12:52:13 GMT -5
Cindy:
I have another question about separation in Nehemiah 13:1-3
it says:
13 v.1 "On that day the Book of Moses was read aloud in the hearing of the people and there it was found written that no Ammonite or Moabite should ever be admitted into the assembly of God,
v. 2 because they had not met the Israelites with food and water but had hired Balaam to call a curse down on them. (Our God, however, turned the curse into a blessing.)
v. 3 When the people heard this law, they excluded from Israel all who were of foreign descent."
My confusion here is that it 'seems' like God is telling them not to ever let this group of people ever into the assembly of God?
I am not sure how to resolve their needing to help the gentiles and non-believers to know about God's love and God saying the Ammonites and Moabites should never be allowed into the assembly of God?
I do know having just read Ruth awhile back, that Ruth a Moabite is part of Jesus genealogy....it's just those Nehemiah verses are confusing.
Thank you ahead of time!
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Post by evafromgreece on Jul 2, 2016 14:46:31 GMT -5
I want to start with something I wrote before:
I want to remind you of one last thing while you reflect on how God had set Israel apart and was teaching them and growing them up to be His Holy people. This is true for us now, just as it was true for Israel. God expects results. He is merciful and just, so when someone sins in ignorance because they do not know better, that person is not judged as harshly as the person who has been taught that it is sin and is wrong. When the person who knows it is a sin does it anyway, they are judged harshly for being disobedient. The more God teaches someone, the more that person understands, the more they are held accountable for. We would not hold anyone accountable for drinking poison if they didn't know it was poison...neither would God. But once the person is aware that it is poison, then they are held accountable to not drink it. (Luke 12:47–48; Luke 8:17–18; John 15:22 ) Reflect then on all the hundreds of years that God taught Israel, and expected her to be His priests, but they never did the job He had prepared them for.
When Jesus was born, Israel had the very best theologians in the world at that time. They knew God's Word and had been studying it for years and therefore thought they knew just exactly what to look for in their Messiah and when to look for Him. When Jesus was born most of the middle east was aware that Israel was expecting their Messiah to show up at any time, because they'd heard the Jew's talking about it. While Israel had learned some things from God's discipline in the past, they had not learned the most important thing of all, which is that God is concerned with our hearts, our attitudes and not just with us "keeping our religious duties". Certainly, there were always some people who understood that. God always has some and always did right from the very beginning. Those people who really understood are those who were truly saved, and yet often they were looked down on and even persecuted by the religious leaders of their day. So while there were a few that were truly saved at the time Jesus came, the vast majority who thought of themselves as religious and righteous, were unsaved and would remain that way because they had hardened their hearts toward God and His Word. During the time Jesus taught, there were always a few that were saved, but again out of the thousands who came to hear Him speak, most of them remained unsaved, because their hearts were hardened. (often 10,000 to 20,000 or more people came to hear Him speak) The same is true in our day. Most of the people who the world thinks of as Christians, are unsaved.
The only reason the rest of the middle east knew that the Jew's were expecting their Messiah is because they'd heard about it through gossip and rumors. It wasn't because the Jew's had seriously tried to teach others about their God. This was Israel's biggest problem and sin. They thought of God as being "their God" as though He didn't have anything to do with anyone else in the world. They thought of themselves as being special because God had chosen them and made them a nation, and called them His own people. But they forgot what God had chosen them to do. Because they thought they were so special, forgetting that God had told them that they were NOT any different then anyone else, they acted like they were better than everyone else and acted like even being near a Gentile would cause them to be "dirty". Since most of the entire world is Gentile, this caused everyone to hate the Jew's. No one likes to be told that their so sinful and dirty that a religious person can't even be in the same room with them! No one likes to over hear a Jew praying to their God and thanking God that they were not born a gentile. So the Jew's did the exact opposite of what God had commanded them to do. They were to be a holy nation of priests that taught the rest of the world about Him. Instead they isolated themselves from the rest of the world and tried to keep God to themselves. We also need to recognize that the rest of the world had constantly treated them very badly long before they isolated themselves. Asking the Jew's to tell the world about their God doesn't sound like a hard thing to do, until we remember that the people they were supposed to be telling are people who had enslaved them, and killed their ancestors, etc. So Israel felt they had good reasons to isolate themselves from the rest of the world. They were also aware that when they had mingled with the gentiles in the past, that they had been tempted by the ways the gentiles lived and fallen into sin because of it and they did not want that to happen again. They knew God had told them to be separate from the world, but they took it the wrong way. Another of their errors was that they constantly forgot that God would help them live the way He commanded them to if they asked and instead they constantly tried to do it themselves, and failed miserably because of it. That's why they made up the over 600 laws to keep them from breaking God's laws. They tried to build a fence around God's law with the laws they made up so that they wouldn't ever sin, but of course that didn't work, because they never got that it was their hearts that God was interested in.
Realizing that, helps us understand again that they really weren't any different than we are.
True, and that gives an answer to a lot of things. Many people say that God was unfair to choose one nation , but explaining the role the nation should have had makes it clear |
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Post by Cindy on Jul 3, 2016 10:26:44 GMT -5
Cindy:
I have another question about separation in Nehemiah 13:1-3
it says:
13 v.1 "On that day the Book of Moses was read aloud in the hearing of the people and there it was found written that no Ammonite or Moabite should ever be admitted into the assembly of God,
v. 2 because they had not met the Israelites with food and water but had hired Balaam to call a curse down on them. (Our God, however, turned the curse into a blessing.)
v. 3 When the people heard this law, they excluded from Israel all who were of foreign descent."
My confusion here is that it 'seems' like God is telling them not to ever let this group of people ever into the assembly of God?
I am not sure how to resolve their needing to help the gentiles and non-believers to know about God's love and God saying the Ammonites and Moabites should never be allowed into the assembly of God?
I do know having just read Ruth awhile back, that Ruth a Moabite is part of Jesus genealogy....it's just those Nehemiah verses are confusing.
Thank you ahead of time!
Does that help?
I want to start with something I wrote before:
I want to remind you of one last thing while you reflect on how God had set Israel apart and was teaching them and growing them up to be His Holy people. This is true for us now, just as it was true for Israel. God expects results. He is merciful and just, so when someone sins in ignorance because they do not know better, that person is not judged as harshly as the person who has been taught that it is sin and is wrong. When the person who knows it is a sin does it anyway, they are judged harshly for being disobedient. The more God teaches someone, the more that person understands, the more they are held accountable for. We would not hold anyone accountable for drinking poison if they didn't know it was poison...neither would God. But once the person is aware that it is poison, then they are held accountable to not drink it. (Luke 12:47–48; Luke 8:17–18; John 15:22 ) Reflect then on all the hundreds of years that God taught Israel, and expected her to be His priests, but they never did the job He had prepared them for.
When Jesus was born, Israel had the very best theologians in the world at that time. They knew God's Word and had been studying it for years and therefore thought they knew just exactly what to look for in their Messiah and when to look for Him. When Jesus was born most of the middle east was aware that Israel was expecting their Messiah to show up at any time, because they'd heard the Jew's talking about it. While Israel had learned some things from God's discipline in the past, they had not learned the most important thing of all, which is that God is concerned with our hearts, our attitudes and not just with us "keeping our religious duties". Certainly, there were always some people who understood that. God always has some and always did right from the very beginning. Those people who really understood are those who were truly saved, and yet often they were looked down on and even persecuted by the religious leaders of their day. So while there were a few that were truly saved at the time Jesus came, the vast majority who thought of themselves as religious and righteous, were unsaved and would remain that way because they had hardened their hearts toward God and His Word. During the time Jesus taught, there were always a few that were saved, but again out of the thousands who came to hear Him speak, most of them remained unsaved, because their hearts were hardened. (often 10,000 to 20,000 or more people came to hear Him speak) The same is true in our day. Most of the people who the world thinks of as Christians, are unsaved.
The only reason the rest of the middle east knew that the Jew's were expecting their Messiah is because they'd heard about it through gossip and rumors. It wasn't because the Jew's had seriously tried to teach others about their God. This was Israel's biggest problem and sin. They thought of God as being "their God" as though He didn't have anything to do with anyone else in the world. They thought of themselves as being special because God had chosen them and made them a nation, and called them His own people. But they forgot what God had chosen them to do. Because they thought they were so special, forgetting that God had told them that they were NOT any different then anyone else, they acted like they were better than everyone else and acted like even being near a Gentile would cause them to be "dirty". Since most of the entire world is Gentile, this caused everyone to hate the Jew's. No one likes to be told that their so sinful and dirty that a religious person can't even be in the same room with them! No one likes to over hear a Jew praying to their God and thanking God that they were not born a gentile. So the Jew's did the exact opposite of what God had commanded them to do. They were to be a holy nation of priests that taught the rest of the world about Him. Instead they isolated themselves from the rest of the world and tried to keep God to themselves. We also need to recognize that the rest of the world had constantly treated them very badly long before they isolated themselves. Asking the Jew's to tell the world about their God doesn't sound like a hard thing to do, until we remember that the people they were supposed to be telling are people who had enslaved them, and killed their ancestors, etc. So Israel felt they had good reasons to isolate themselves from the rest of the world. They were also aware that when they had mingled with the gentiles in the past, that they had been tempted by the ways the gentiles lived and fallen into sin because of it and they did not want that to happen again. They knew God had told them to be separate from the world, but they took it the wrong way. Another of their errors was that they constantly forgot that God would help them live the way He commanded them to if they asked and instead they constantly tried to do it themselves, and failed miserably because of it. That's why they made up the over 600 laws to keep them from breaking God's laws. They tried to build a fence around God's law with the laws they made up so that they wouldn't ever sin, but of course that didn't work, because they never got that it was their hearts that God was interested in.
Realizing that, helps us understand again that they really weren't any different than we are.
True, and that gives an answer to a lot of things. Many people say that God was unfair to choose one nation , but explaining the role the nation should have had makes it clear
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Post by evafromgreece on Jul 4, 2016 15:18:43 GMT -5
Because of Israel's sin, God could not begin the Millennial Kingdom at Christ's first advent, and instead had to begin a new program called the Church, so the rest of the world could be saved. What then should God do with Israel? Should He just do away with them completely and figure they're not worth trying to work with any longer? Would any loving parent give up on their child because that child stubbornly continued to refuse to do what's right? We know that the Age of Grace which began with the Church has lasted a long time, and will continue until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, so what happens to Israel now that the Church has taken over her job of telling the world about God? Is the Church the "new Israel", or is there still an Israel and the Church as well?
God works with the Jews still, and He invites them to join church. I believe Israel, the wholy nation is the church now. God does not see nations now I think. And He cares about them still, but they have to join the church to get saved, like any other person.
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Post by Cindy on Jul 5, 2016 11:16:42 GMT -5
Because of Israel's sin, God could not begin the Millennial Kingdom at Christ's first advent, and instead had to begin a new program called the Church, so the rest of the world could be saved. What then should God do with Israel? Should He just do away with them completely and figure they're not worth trying to work with any longer? Would any loving parent give up on their child because that child stubbornly continued to refuse to do what's right? We know that the Age of Grace which began with the Church has lasted a long time, and will continue until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, so what happens to Israel now that the Church has taken over her job of telling the world about God? Is the Church the "new Israel", or is there still an Israel and the Church as well?God works with the Jews still, and He invites them to join church. I believe Israel, the wholy nation is the church now. God does not see nations now I think. And He cares about them still, but they have to join the church to get saved, like any other person.
I think this would be easier for you to understand if you knew what happened when a gentile came to faith in the one true God before Jesus came. The Gentiles that came to faith during all the years before Jesus came were called "God-fearers" and they were allowed to worship God at the Temple in Jerusalem - up to a point. The most important part of worshiping God was offering a sacrifice and being present when the priests offered it to God. Gentile God fearers could not do that. The Temple had several "courts" where the people came to worship. The court that was farthest away from the Holy of Holies where God's presence had dwelt, was the "court of the Gentiles". This is where the Gentiles could go to worship. After that came the court of the women where they could worship. Then came the rest of the Temple where the Jewish men went to give their sacrifice to the priests and see it offered to God. There was even a warning posted on the wall near where the men entered to offer their sacrifice that warned Gentiles not to go any further or they would be killed.
So a Gentile that was "saved", was not allowed to fully participate in the temple worship. There was always a barrier between them and the Jew's and a physical barrier in the temple between them and God. No Gentile ever "became a Jew" the way today someone might become a member of a different denomination.
When Jesus came and started the Church, He told us that those who belong to the Church have God's presence dwelling within them. In other words, God no longer dwelt in the Temple in Jerusalem, but instead dwelt inside every believer, no matter what race or nation they came from, or whether they were free or slaves. There was no discrimination any longer. This was revolutionary and amazing then. (and still should be!) Notice though that only when someone is "in Christ" are they part of the body of Christ, the Church. Everyone else is still a member of whatever nation and race they have always been.
God will take His body the Church, off the earth when the rapture happens, so the body of Christ will no longer be on the earth, only the unsaved will be left. Many of them will become saved, but when they do, if they are Jewish, they will be saved like the Jew's were during the Old Testament days, and will always be called Israel. If they are Gentile, then they will be like the God fearers during the Old Testament days and like it was before Jesus began the Church. In other words, they will still be Gentiles, but will be rewarded with the same promises that Israel will be rewarded with after the Tribulation.
We will be getting into God's different plans for Israel and the Gentiles later, but for now, we just have to know that there will always be a Nation of Israel on the earth - at least through the Millennium, and that for now there is also the Body of Christ, the Church on the earth. The two are totally separate and always will be. Israel is not the Church and never will be.
There is a false teaching that says that the Church has replaced Israel, but that is not true. We have not replaced them. We are doing the job they were supposed to do, but they still have all of God's promises including the promise that one day, all Israel will be saved. That day will happen at the end of the Tribulation when Jesus returns with the Church and all His angels.
Please let me know if there's anything you do not understand as this is very important to understanding what God has planned.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 5, 2016 12:08:09 GMT -5
Thank you for explaining that Cindy.
I wonder if if some strange way, the NWO is ( among many other things) trying to do away with 'nations'...
not only for the anti-Christ to institute his one world government, one religion, and money system,
thinking that way there will be peace and safety, but also they wrongly hope that then God can't judge the 'nations',
because there will no longer be 'nations'.
So God's thru the tribulation is dealing with Israel mostly, yes?
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Post by Cindy on Jul 6, 2016 11:40:43 GMT -5
Thank you for explaining that Cindy.
I wonder if if some strange way, the NWO is ( among many other things) trying to do away with 'nations'...
not only for the anti-Christ to institute his one world government, one religion, and money system,
thinking that way there will be peace and safety, but also they wrongly hope that then God can't judge the 'nations',
because there will no longer be 'nations'.
So God's thru the tribulation is dealing with Israel mostly, yes?
Yes, the Tribulation is mainly dealing with Israel, but will also deal with the Gentiles based on how they treat any Jew's and/or their attitude toward Jews. The Gentile Nations will be judged based on how they treated Israel as a Nation. We'll get into all of that though in a while. But you can still ask questions about it if any come up...don't want anyone to think they can't lol
I'm waiting for Eva, as I don't want to continue until I know she understands the difference between Israel and the church....
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 6, 2016 19:38:28 GMT -5
Sounds good to me. She may have gotten busy or perhaps is sick.
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Any time! Sorry it took me so long to explain it.
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