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Post by Cindy on Jun 2, 2016 11:35:32 GMT -5
lol I figured you guys would be pulling out your hair after reading all of that! I won't be able to continue for another day or so, and besides I want Eva to have plenty of time to read it and understand too before I continue anyway, so I guess it works out. I'll always try to give you at least a couple of days to do each post....
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383 
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Post by fearnot on Jun 2, 2016 13:42:07 GMT -5
It is hard to digest all of the countries etc. I was never great at geography LOL
So I will probably have to read it more than once!
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Post by evafromgreece on Jun 2, 2016 15:17:18 GMT -5
So the Jews ansestors were Cannan and Ham? And God chose His nation from Cannan and Ham descendants even though they were cursed?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 2, 2016 18:30:49 GMT -5
Eva:
I could be wrong but I think Cindy wrote that:
"The Shemites (Semites) were the Jews."
That would mean they were from Shem not not Ham.
She also wrote:
"Canaan and his descendants are the fathers of the nations named in Genesis 10:15–20 and were to be the lowest of servants to their brothers.
It is easy to see that they were ultimately made slaves by both the Jews and Gentiles."
So again, if Canaan was slaves to both Gentiles and Jews then they were not Jews.
Tho they did become slaves in Egypt.
God did not chose them because they were the 'best' of all the people ( we are all sinners)
God said in Deut. 7:7-8
v. 7 "The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.
v. 8 But it was because the Lord loved you....."
But as always, I think Cindy may have more to say about it.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 3, 2016 10:47:03 GMT -5
Usually, when we read the OT, we generally focus on what is happening with Israel, but there's a lot in the OT about the Gentiles as well. God did not leave us out. Let's start at the beginning and see what the Gentiles are up to during all this time.
After Adam and Eve sinned, if you recall, God told Satan:“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”” (Genesis 3:15) This is a prophecy that Christ will defeat Satan (crush his head). So from the very start after they sinned, God had a plan to rescue humanity. The next thing we see in the bible is that Adam and Eve had children, Cain and Abel. Abel was godly, and followed the ways of God, Cain wasn't and wound up killing Abel. God tells Cain he must leave God's presence and live elsewhere. Then we're told: “So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.” (Genesis 4:16) Cain begins the first settlement and world system separate from the Lord. Adam and Eve continued where they were and continued to try and please the Lord and follow His ways, but Cain left, as he was told to, but he disobeyed the Lord and settled down and by Genesis 4:17 we see that he built a city. (the Lord had told him he was to continue to wander and not settle down - Genesis 4:12) Up to verse 24, we read about more people born who lived in that city and how ungodly it was. They began the idea of having more then one wife and even more murder was done by then.
Next we hear that Adam and Eve had another son they named Seth. Now, if you look at the names of the people God mentions living in Cain's city, and the names of those born after Seth who was also godly, you'll see something that Satan does all the time - he mimics God. And so the names of the ungodly people are similar to the names of those born to godly Seth's line in chapter 5. Toward the end of that chapter, we're introduced to Noah, and at the beginning of chapter 6 we're told how very evil the people had become. They were so evil, that even Seth's line had been corrupted, all except for Noah and his family. Next comes the flood which destroys everyone and everything on the earth except for Noah's family and the animals on the Ark. In chapter 9, when the flood is over, God gives Noah a blessing and a command: “Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.” (Genesis 9:1)
Next were told of Noah's sons: “The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.” (Genesis 9:18–19) Then we learn that Ham sinned against God and his father, Noah, but the other two sons did not. When Noah discovered what he did, he cursed Ham's son which suggests that his son also sinned with his father: “he said, “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.” He also said, “Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave.”” (Genesis 9:25–27)
The scriptures I've mentioned are all quite important. Let me explain a bit more: The fact that Noah curses Canaan, Ham’s youngest son, suggests that the boy was involved in the sin along with his father and that God would punish the sins of both the father and the son. Canaan and his descendants are the fathers of the nations named in Genesis 10:15–20 and were to be the lowest of servants to their brothers. It is easy to see that they were ultimately made slaves by both the Jews and Gentiles. The Shemites (Semites) were the Jews. Their tribes are listed in Genesis 10:21–32, and Genesis 11:10–26 traces that line to Abraham. The descendants of Japheth are the Gentiles and their tribes are listed in Genesis 10:1–5. I like how one of my commentaries explains chapter 10: Genesis 10 is a key to the rest of the biblical account. It is like the cast of characters given in the preface of a play so that the audience will understand who the players are, how they stand in relation to each other, and which ones have the main roles. Word in life study Bible. You may have heard Chapter 10 called "The Table of Nations" for this is where we began to have Nations on the earth. As I'm not feeling all that well, rather than trying to explain all this myself, I'm going to use some information from the commentaries to make it easier on me.
“The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras.” (Genesis 10:2)
From Japheth came the European races. Japheth, Noah’s youngest son, and his descendants (10:2–5) were largely responsible for the founding of much of what is now Eastern Europe. Some of the settlements included Ukraine (Gomer), Turkey (Magog, Tubal, Meshech), Greece (Javan), southern Russia (Ashkenaz), Cyprus (Elishah), and the Greek Isles (Kittim). Opening up Genesis.
“Gomer” This seems to refer to the Cimmerians, who are mentioned in Homer’s Iliad, chapter 11:13–19. They inhabited northern Asia Minor. They possibly migrated north and become European tribal groups. This can be seen through a similar term for them in north Germany, “Cimbi” and in Wales, “Cymri.”
“Magog” There has been much discussion about this name because of its connection to Ezek. 38–39 and end-time events. However, it must be asserted that Magog, along with Meshech and Tubal, also mentioned in v. 2, are primarily tribes connected with Asia Minor and the coast of the Black Sea. It is quite possible that they migrated north and become the tribal groups of modern Russia. But, in ancient times, they were much closer to the Promised Land. Most assert that Magog is connected with the Scythians, southeast of the Black Sea. This information comes from Josephus.
“Madai” Most assert that this refers to the Medes, who lived south and southwest of the Caspian Sea, who become so important to Israel in their joining with Persia to overthrow the NeoBabylon Empire (Nebuchadnezzar).
“Javan” This seems to refer to the Ionian (southern) Greeks (cf. Dan. 8:21; 10:20; 11:2). This group is spelled “Javana” in Sanskrit; “Juna” in old Persian and “Jounan” on the Rosetta stone. They later became, not only the kingdom of Greece, but possibly a part of the sea peoples in the Aegean area (i.e. Phoenicians and Philistines).
“Tubal” Many assert that this refers to the Tiberenians of central Asia Minor. Both Tubal and Meshech occur in Ezek 38–39 as residing in Asia Minor.
“Meshech” Many assert that this is a tribal group who lived south and southwest of the Black Sea (cf. Ezek. 27:13; 32:26; 38:2; 39:1). This information comes from Herodotus.
“Tiras” There have been several possible identifications for this group, as is so common among commentators. Many of these names and locales are simply uncertain. The possibilities include (1) the Etruscans; (2) an Aegean pirate nation called Pelasgians; (3) Josephus says the Thracians; or (4) Rashi says that it refers to Persia. How it All Began:
Tiras was the ancestor of the Thracians of northern Greece, or perhaps the Etruscans of Italy. KJV Bible Commentary.
“The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah.” (Genesis 10:3)
“Ashkenaz” This is the name adopted by later Jews of Europe (i.e. Germany). The current theories are (1) Scythians in the area of Germany; (2) people close to Lake Urumia; or (3) a tribal group of Bithynia in Asia Minor.
“Riphath” This has been alleged to be a tribal group near the river Rhebas or a tribal group near the Bosphorus.
“Togarmah” These are (1) a tribal group in the area of Cappadocia in Asia Minor; (2) near the ancient city of Carchemish; or (3) a tribal group in Phrygia. All three of these possibilities are in modern Turkey.
“The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittim and the Rodanim.” (Genesis 10:4)
“Elishah” Most assert that this refers to the native population of Cypress. They are mentioned in Ezek. 27:7.
“Tarshish” Although Albright located this at Sardinia, most modern researchers locate it in southern Spain (i.e. Tartessos). It is mentioned in 2 Chr. 9:21; Ps. 48:7; 72:10; Jonah 1:3; 4:2).
“Kittim” There is a consistent opinion that this refers to the settlers on the east coast of Cypress.
“Dodanim” Many assert that the similarity between the Hebrew letters, D (ד) and R (ו), has been confused and that this refers to the tribal inhabitants of the Island of Rhodes (cf. NIV translation). However, others assert that it is northern Greece and still others say it is southern Italy. It is obvious that this is simply unknown.
“(From these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language.)” (Genesis 10:5)
“From these coastlands of the nations” or "the maritime peoples" This phrase is used to symbolize far away peoples, but here it seems to refer to the inhabitants along the coast of the Mediterranean and Black Seas which follows the migration of the children of Japheth. How it All Began
The Hamites
“The sons of Ham: Cush, Mizraim, Put and Canaan. The sons of Cush: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah and Sabteca. The sons of Raamah: Sheba and Dedan.” (Genesis 10:6–7)
These sons of Ham are discussed further in the following verses: Cush in vv. 7–12; Mizraim in vv. 13–14; and Canaan in vv. 15–19. Put, although not discussed, seems to refer either to East Africa (Somalia), southern Arabia, Libya or Cyrene. It is obvious from this many possible locations that we are uncertain.
“Canaan was the father of Sidon his firstborn, and of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girgashites, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites and Hamathites. Later the Canaanite clans scattered and the borders of Canaan reached from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.” (Genesis 10:15–19)
“Sidon” This is the famous Phoenician seaport and originally its capital, north of Palestine
“Heth” This seems to be a non-Semitic name. It is possibly the beginning of the Hittite group. In the Bible they are located in two places: (1) around the city of Hebron and (2) north of Palestine in central Turkey. They dominated this entire region between 1800–1200 B.C The tribal group called Hivites may also be connected to the term Heth.
“the Jebusite” These were the occupants of the city of Salem or Jebus, later Jerusalem
“Amorite” The term Amorite can be a collective term (cf. Gen. 15:16) like the term Canaanite. We think it had the connotation of “high-lander” (the literal name meant “westerner”) while Canaanite had the connotation of “low-lander” (the literal name meant “land of purple”). In the Bible the inhabitants of Canaan are listed in several places: (1) by two tribal groups in Gen. 13:7, 34:30; Judg. 1:4, 5; (2) by seven nations in Deut. 7:1; Josh. 3:10; 24:11; (3) by ten nations in Gen. 15:19–20; and (4) the most common usage is a sixth nation designation that is used the majority of times in the Pentateuch.
“Girgashite” This was a Canaanite tribe often named in the various lists of the tribes of Canaan (Gen. 10:16; 15:21; Deut. 7:11; Josh. 3:10; 24:11; Neh. 9:8; 1 Chr. 1:14), but no locality is ever identified.
“the Hivite” They seem to be the inhabitants of central Palestine. Some identify them with Hurrians. Numbers 13:29 is a good geographical summary of the division of these tribes in Palestine.
“Arkite” This seems to be the inhabitants of a coastal city and island north of Sidon
“Sinite” This seems to be the inhabitants of a city close to Arke
“Arvadite” This seems to refer to the inhabitants of an island off the coast north of Palestine. Like the two previous ones it is north of Tripolis.
“Hamathite” This refers to the inhabitants of a city on the Orontes River
“Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim” These are cities of the plains that God later destroys. They are located in the southern end of the Dead Sea.
“Lasha” Jerome says that this was east of the Dead Sea How it All Began
The Semites
“Sons were also born to Shem, whose older brother was Japheth; Shem was the ancestor of all the sons of Eber.” (Genesis 10:21)
“Shem” This is the Hebrew term “name”. His importance is seen because he is mentioned both here and in 11:10–26. The rebellious people of chapters 10–11 want to build a “name” for themselves. His name links up with Genesis 4:26 (i.e. YHWH’s name glorified). He will represent the chosen line of blessing (cf. 12:2).
OK, I'm going to stop here for today. But it's important that we know where the Gentiles and Jews came from. Please read all of Genesis 10 so you can get the full picture, and we'll talk more about it all tomorrow. Oh, the reason I put some names in red is because I would expect that you probably recognize those names or if not, then I wanted to draw your attention to them.
It is hard to digest all of the countries etc. I was never great at geography LOL
So I will probably have to read it more than once! So the Jews ansestors were Cannan and Ham? And God chose His nation from Cannan and Ham descendants even though they were cursed?
The scriptures I've mentioned are all quite important. Let me explain a bit more: The fact that Noah curses Canaan, Ham’s youngest son, suggests that the boy was involved in the sin along with his father and that God would punish the sins of both the father and the son. Canaan and his descendants are the fathers of the nations named in Genesis 10:15–20 and were to be the lowest of servants to their brothers. It is easy to see that they were ultimately made slaves by both the Jews and Gentiles. The Shemites (Semites) were the Jews.
Than, Look at the very end of my post Eva, which I quoted above, the part that says: The Semites
“Sons were also born to Shem, whose older brother was Japheth; Shem was the ancestor of all the sons of Eber.” (Genesis 10:21)
“Shem” This is the Hebrew term “name”. His importance is seen because he is mentioned both here and in 11:10–26. The rebellious people of chapters 10–11 want to build a “name” for themselves. His name links up with Genesis 4:26 (i.e. YHWH’s name glorified). He will represent the chosen line of blessing (cf. 12:2).
Eva:
I could be wrong but I think Cindy wrote that:
"The Shemites (Semites) were the Jews."
That would mean they were from Shem not not Ham.
She also wrote:
"Canaan and his descendants are the fathers of the nations named in Genesis 10:15–20 and were to be the lowest of servants to their brothers.
It is easy to see that they were ultimately made slaves by both the Jews and Gentiles."
So again, if Canaan was slaves to both Gentiles and Jews then they were not Jews.
Tho they did become slaves in Egypt.
God did not chose them because they were the 'best' of all the people ( we are all sinners)
God said in Deut. 7:7-8
v. 7 "The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.
v. 8 But it was because the Lord loved you....."
But as always, I think Cindy may have more to say about it.
I'm going to be busy this weekend again so probably won't be able to add more here till Monday. In fact, as far as this thread goes, let's plan on taking the weekends off, unless you need them to catch up or something, as it looks like I'm only going to have time to do the accountability thread on the weekends. OK?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 3, 2016 13:10:57 GMT -5
That is good for me too.....like this weekend one of the things we need to do is go grocery shopping, among other stuff ( i.e. our landlord often comes on weekends, and is ummmmm distracting LOL with things he wants to talk about the place etc.)
So that works good, and really you will start on Tue right? So Tue-Fri.?
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Post by Cindy on Jun 6, 2016 11:46:46 GMT -5
Ok, I hope everyone is caught up. Before we talked about the table of nations in Genesis 10, do you remember what the Lord had commanded everyone to do after the flood? His command to them was to be fruitful, (have children) and spread out all over the earth. Remember? It's in Genesis 9:7.
Chapter 10, where it lists the descendants of Noah's sons, when listing the sons of Shem, there's something interesting said in the verse about the second to last son: “Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan.” (Genesis 10:25) This is telling us that the events that happened at Babel, happened during Peleg's lifetime. In fact, his name means "division". This also lets us know that the information in chapter 10 was placed ahead of the time when it actually happened. The reason for this was to let us know the names of the important people that we'd be reading about next so we'd know what to watch for. For example, often in both fiction and non fiction books, the author will have a "cast of characters" at the beginning of the book, so you can recognize their names when you read about them later in the book. It's kind of the same thing here.
OK, back to what I said before, remember that God had commanded them to spread out and cover the whole earth. But what do they actually do? They started to spread out, but then something happened. “Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.” (Genesis 11:1–2) Everyone spoke the same language, and after starting out, they found a place they liked and decided to disobey God and build themselves a city and settle down there. So they disobeyed God and stayed together in that place, and shortly they became proud and decided that instead of giving glory to God, that they would make a name for themselves. So they built a high tower as a monument to themselves, to show off how great they were. (just like we do today) God of course, saw how they'd become proud and disobeyed Him, so He caused them to scatter over all the earth and gave them different languages so they couldn't go back and understand each other. In other words, He forced them to obey. By the way, when God said "nothing will be impossible for them" in Genesis 11:6 He is talking about how great their sin will be if He allows it to continue. They would have gone from bad to much worse.
Now, back to Genesis 10:25, where we were told that this happened during Peleg's lifetime. Because God tells us that, we can know that this horrible disobedience happened just 5 generations after the flood! So within just 5 generations the world had already gone back to the horrible sinful ways.
Genesis 11:10–26 then tells us (and would tell Israel) who their ancestors were. We know the Jew's came from Noah's son Shem as Genesis 11:26 tells us that Abram, who God called to be the Father of the Jew's and changed his name to Abraham, was his descendant. Chapter 12 begins the story of the Jew's which we've already discussed.
The reason I wanted to point all this out, is that we often think that there's no mention of the Gentiles in the Old Testament, that it's all about the Jew's. But it's really about everyone. We've already seen that after the flood, everyone disobeyed God and began the tower of Babel and then were scattered over the earth by God. Everyone includes the ancestors of both the Jew's and the Gentiles. Sadly, we Gentiles didn't learn anything from God's discipline at the tower of Babel. And that's pretty sad since most of the human race are Gentiles. But God always has someone who loves Him with all their heart, and this time it was a man named Abram who would become the father of the Jew's. Even as the bible continues to tell us about the story of the Jew's, we constantly hear about the gentiles too. The Jew's are constantly running into gentiles and every time they do, there's generally trouble.
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Post by evafromgreece on Jun 6, 2016 13:25:53 GMT -5
Hey guys :)
I confused the Sinites with the Shemites. Now its clear
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Post by evafromgreece on Jun 6, 2016 13:43:28 GMT -5
"OK, back to what I said before, remember that God had commanded them to spread out and cover the whole earth. But what do they actually do? They started to spread out, but then something happened. “Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.” (Genesis 11:1–2) "
I am not sure what this practically meant. God ordered them to wonder around earth without permanent home? Not to build a house lets say? Or not to be in a specific area for long? Was it a sin to build a house lets say?
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Post by Cindy on Jun 7, 2016 10:16:56 GMT -5
Hey guys :) I confused the Sinites with the Shemites. Now its clear "OK, back to what I said before, remember that God had commanded them to spread out and cover the whole earth. But what do they actually do? They started to spread out, but then something happened. “Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.” (Genesis 11:1–2) " I am not sure what this practically meant. God ordered them to wonder around earth without permanent home? Not to build a house lets say? Or not to be in a specific area for long? Was it a sin to build a house lets say?
But they didn't obey God. Instead, they came to a place they liked and they all stayed in that one place.
God had good reasons for telling them to cover the whole earth. Remember, when God created Adam and Eve, He gave them a job to do and that job belongs to every man and woman to this day. Their job was to care for the animals and the earth. They were the caretakers of earth. When man refused to spread out and cover the whole earth, they were leaving most of the earth without anyone to take care of it.
However, just because we happen to know one reason that God wanted them to spread out over the whole earth, really doesn't matter. God commanded them to do something and they disobeyed - that's what is important. God is not obligated to tell us why He wants us to do or not do something. But we are obligated to obey Him no matter what. It's like a famous saying we have here in the United States from our armed services: "Ours is not to question why, ours is but to do or die." This is something I think most parents try to teach their children. Most children will ask their parents "why" they have to do something, or why they can't do something they want to do. Sometimes parents will give the child their reason, but sometimes we don't. I would tell my children that they didn't need to know why, they just needed to obey me because I was their mother. For awhile my children got really bad about wanting to know why, and would constantly ask me about it, trying to get me to give in and let them do what they wanted to. It got so bad that I finally started telling them that my reason was that I was practicing the art of saying no. They hated it when I said that, but it finally taught them to stop questioning me when I told them to do something, or told them they couldn't do something. It's an important lesson that all children need to learn, (the lesson that we are to obey those in authority over us without asking for a reason) Sadly, it seems many today never learned that lesson and therefore are not teaching their children that lesson.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 7, 2016 12:35:49 GMT -5
After all we've looked at so far in Genesis, the next 12 or so chapters are all about Abram, how God changed his name to Abraham, and all that happened to him and between him and God. He's important because he's the only man that was not worshiping idols at that time. Everyone else was, and it was only 5 generations after the flood!
5 generations may sound like a long time, but it's really not long at all. Think of it this way: 1) My grandmother, 2) my mother, 3) myself, 4) my children, 5) my grandchildren and 6) my granddaughter's son (my great grandson) make 6 generations! I've lived to see 6 generations already and if I live for another 15 years it's quite possible that I could see the 7th generation of my family! The reason I'm bringing this up is to show us that all these people knew Noah and his sons, or at least knew of them, since they were originally all family. Therefore they also knew about God and knew what He required of them, how they were to worship Him, and of course also knew that they were not to make up their own gods (idols) to worship. They knew about God because Noah knew and Noah would have raised his children to know. Noah was the 10th generation from Adam, and in those days, because of the long life spans, he may have even known Adam. If I could live long enough to know the 7th generation of my family, surely with their long life spans they could know 10 generations, don't you think? I'm making this point for a reason. We need to understand that there was no logical reason for anyone to have turned away from God by Noah's time, or even by Abraham's time (Abraham was the 10th generation from Noah). We often tend to think that thousands of years would have gone by and no one would remember God, but that's simply not true. Part of the reason we tend to think like that is because the world has taught us that early man lived in caves and were stupid. We know that's not true though. Oh, they may have lived in caves at times, but not because they didn't know how to build a house, but instead because it was convenient. As far as intelligence goes, we know they were very intelligent, as God and Adam and Eve had many conversations together before they sinned. They were not savages, they were very intelligent, probably more then we are!
So there was no excuse at all for any of the people to turn away from God. They did so not because they didn't know any better, but because they wanted to. They chose to turn away from Him and do what they wanted instead of what He wanted. Thankfully, God always kept at least one person who's heart was totally committed to Him. That does not mean that the person did not sin, it just means that the person loved God and did not "want" to sin, and tried not to. They were just like us though and could not help sinning some times.
In Genesis 16, God tells us about the fruit of one of Abraham and Sarah's sins. The baby Ishmael was born to them through Sarah's maid Hagar. Later the "child of promise", Isaac, would be born. But Abraham loved Ishmael and begged God to bless him too, and God did. He promised Abraham that He would make Ishmael into a nation too. (Genesis 17:20) Ishmael became the father of all the Arabs, all the muslims who to this day hate their half brothers, the Jew's.
A short time later, in Chapter 18, we get another look at what is going on with all the other people in the world - the people who would become the gentiles. Jesus came to speak to Abraham and tell him again that He was going to give him another son, a son from Sarah, and she would have the baby within a year. He then decided to tell Abraham what was going on elsewhere, and told him about the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah. So in 10 generations from the flood, the people became so sinful that God first had to intervene and force them to spread out over all the earth, and then after that, had to destroy several cities because they'd become so terribly wicked! Abraham pleaded with God and God saved Lot and his family so they wouldn't be destroyed with the rest of the wicked people. Lot was not a righteous man and his family wasn't either. God saved him from the destruction because Abraham asked Him to. It was only because of Abraham's prayers that Lot and his family were saved. (his wife died though because she looked back after being told not to) Lot was not as wicked as the rest of the people were. He knew God's laws but did not really care about God. He did not want others to dislike him, and so he just let everyone do whatever they wanted to, and quietly went about his own business. He didn't like all the sin, but he liked some of it. We can easily see that because the angels had to practically drag him out of the city! After being saved from the destruction of the cities, Lot's daughter's got him drunk and then got him to have sex with them. They both became pregnant and the sons they had grew up to be enemies to the Jew's but there are some very interesting things said about them. Their sons, Moab and Ben-Ammi, descendants were the Moabites and Ammonites. I'm going to stop here for now though and we will talk about the Moabites and Ammonites more tomorrow.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 7, 2016 15:37:53 GMT -5
I really needed to hear this today:
"Thankfully, God always kept at least one person who's heart was totally committed to Him. That does not mean that the person did not sin, it just means that the person loved God and did not "want" to sin, and tried not to. They were just like us though and could not help sinning some times."
I always feel so bad when I sin, and I try not to, but do ( I suspect, even more than I know). This Was encouraging ( tho not the sinning part).
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Post by Cindy on Jun 8, 2016 11:57:49 GMT -5
I really needed to hear this today:
"Thankfully, God always kept at least one person who's heart was totally committed to Him. That does not mean that the person did not sin, it just means that the person loved God and did not "want" to sin, and tried not to. They were just like us though and could not help sinning some times."
I always feel so bad when I sin, and I try not to, but do ( I suspect, even more than I know). This Was encouraging ( tho not the sinning part).
I made a mistake in my last paragraph yesterday that I need to correct:
I forgot about what 2 Peter 2:7–8 says about Lot, and it says he was righteous. Interestingly, Lot is not mentioned in the "hall of faith" in Hebrews 11, which tells me that he is not someone we are to pattern ourselves after. From just reading the story in Genesis though, it sure doesn't sound like he was righteous. Yet the Lord decided to make him righteous and saw him that way even though he wasn't, just like He sees us. So while I did make a mistake, in another way, I didn't. Strange isn't it? Let me share what some commentaries say about him:
As a judge Lot sought to screen out the wickedness of his townfolk and to give advice on good living. He knew truth and justice, righteousness and evil. He was “a righteous man” (2 Peter 2:7–8). Yet in spite of his denunciation of their lifestyle, he liked the good life of Sodom’s society. He preferred making money off its citizens to staying in the hills (cf. Gen. 13:10–11) where there would be no filthy living but also no “good life.” The Bible Knowledge Commentary
When the heavenly contingent came to visit Abraham, he was at his tent door; but Lot was sitting in the gate of a wicked city. Abraham was a pilgrim and stranger, only passing through this world; but Lot had gradually abandoned his tent and settled down in Sodom. Instead of keeping his eyes on the heavenly city, Lot looked toward Sodom and began to walk by sight . Then he moved his tent near Sodom, and finally he moved into Sodom (Genesis 14:12). Worldliness is not a matter of physical geography but of heart attitude (1 John 2:15–17). Lot’s heart was in Sodom long before his body arrived there. No doubt he got his first love for the world when he went to Egypt with Abraham (Genesis 13:1, 10), and he never overcame it. It was early afternoon when the Lord and His angels visited Abraham (Genesis 18:1), but it was evening when the angels entered Sodom. Abraham was “walking in the light” while Lot was “walking in darkness” (1 John 1:5–10). 2 Peter 2:7–8 indicates that Lot was a saved man. He had union with the Lord, but not communion; sonship, but not fellowship. He was “saved, yet as by fire” (1 Cor. 3:14–15). Be Obedient.
It looks like this commentary made the same mistake I did:
Lot’s offer of his daughters leaves no doubt that this phrase refers to sexual intimacy (v. 8). Sexual perversions were common in Canaanite culture and religious rites. Lot reflects the effects of Sodom on his own morality. Sexual violence is condemned in Gen 34 as well as in the rest of OT history (Judg. 19:22, 23; 2 Sam. 13). Lot is rescued not because of his own virtue but because of his relationship to Abraham (v. 29). The Woman’s Study Bible
“So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.” (Genesis 19:29)
Let's also look at this scripture: “and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.” (2 Peter 2:7–9)
So, God's Word tells us that God called Lot righteous, but that God did not rescue Lot because of his own righteousness, but rescued him because Abraham loved him and God knew it would make Abraham sad if Lot was killed. So because of Abraham, and most likely due to his many prayers for Lot (for we know Abraham was an intercessor and prayed a great deal) God imputed His righteousness, the righteousness of Christ, onto Lot and saved him, both physically and spiritually. Lot was not as wicked as the people in Sodom were, but some of their lack of morals had rubbed off on him, as we see by him offering his daughters to the men. We can see how different Lot is from a truly righteous man simply by comparing his life with Abraham's life. (By the way, this should give us great hope for our loved ones who are not saved!)
I got very excited yesterday when I discovered something about the sons of Lot's daughters.
I had a bunch of questions about it for God so needed a lot more time to study it before I could share it. This is another instance of me learning something because I'm helping you guys learn!
Both the Moabites and Ammonites were enemies of Israel, yet were also related to them as their ancestry goes back to Lot who is Abraham's nephew.
First I remembered what Daniel said about them: “He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand.” (Daniel 11:41) This verse is speaking about the antichrist and saying that he will invade the beautiful land, which is Israel. He will attack the other countries around Israel as well and many of them will fall, but Edom, Moab and Ammon will be kept safe from him by God. I wanted to know why God would keep them safe, since they had treated Israel badly many times and there are many prophecies also saying that God will judge them and they'll be punished. Yet we also see this scripture and these other ones: ““Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab in days to come,” declares the LORD. Here ends the judgment on Moab.” (Jeremiah 48:47) ““Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,” declares the LORD.” (Jeremiah 49:6) Both of these are speaking of the end of the tribulation when Jesus begins the Millennial Kingdom! When asking the Lord why He was going to restore them, He first took me to Ruth 1:1 and reminded me that Ruth was from Moab and we know from Matthew 1:5 that Ruth is an ancestor of Jesus! Ruth's grandson was King David's father! I also discovered that in the group of men that are called David's "mighty men" was one who was from Moab and another who was from Ammon. On top of that, David's son Solomon had wives who were from Ammon and who was the mother of King Rehoboam. So it seems like they're popping up everywhere now.
Next I was led to Deuteronomy 2:9: “Then the LORD said to me, “Do not harass the Moabites or provoke them to war, for I will not give you any part of their land. I have given Ar to the descendants of Lot as a possession.”” and ““Today you are to pass by the region of Moab at Ar. When you come to the Ammonites, do not harass them or provoke them to war, for I will not give you possession of any land belonging to the Ammonites. I have given it as a possession to the descendants of Lot.”” (Deuteronomy 2:18–19)
So not only is God going to keep them safe during the tribulation, and then restore them for the Millennial Kingdom, but He also gave them land, just like He gave land to Israel! But what about the bad way they'd treated Israel? Here is what God said about that: “No Ammonite or Moabite or any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation. For they did not come to meet you with bread and water on your way when you came out of Egypt, and they hired Balaam son of Beor from Pethor in Aram Naharaim to pronounce a curse on you.” (Deuteronomy 23:3–4) Their punishment was that none of them would be saved until after 10 generations had passed. It would take that long for the taint of sin to be removed far enough that some of them could then be saved. Then the Lord said: “However, the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam but turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you. Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them as long as you live.” (Deuteronomy 23:5–6) So they were not to accept a treaty with them. Next God also mentions Edom who seems bound up with Moab and Ammon; He also mentions Egypt: “Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country. The third generation of children born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD.” (Deuteronomy 23:7–8) So because of their sin, they could not be saved for 3 generations.
Finally I was reminded that when the antichrist defiles the temple and begins to persecute the Jew's, that God had made a safe place for them to hide in the mountains and that safe place is in Moab. But I'll have to tell you more about that tomorrow as this has already taken me too long to write....
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 8, 2016 17:25:21 GMT -5
That was really interesting!!! Thank you for all the time and effort you took to write it all out.
I had no idea that God will keep them safe during the tribulation.
I am not exactly sure what country or people they are now?
Is Egypt also to be safe?
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Post by Cindy on Jun 9, 2016 12:49:37 GMT -5
That was really interesting!!! Thank you for all the time and effort you took to write it all out.
I had no idea that God will keep them safe during the tribulation.
I am not exactly sure what country or people they are now?
Is Egypt also to be safe?
Petra and Bozrah During the Tribulation
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 9, 2016 20:27:27 GMT -5
Thanks I read what you wrote on Petra and Bozrah. I didn't realize that Bozrah was also a possible place for them.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 10, 2016 13:00:46 GMT -5
you're welcome.
It seems like there had been trouble between Esau and Jacob from before they were even born, and the older they got, the worse the trouble between them was. Jacob followed after God's ways, or at least tried his best to do so, while Esau, did the opposite. Sounds a lot like Cain and Able doesn't it? So much like them that Esau even said he wanted to kill his brother! (Genesis 27:41) Then take a look at who Esau marries, which will also show us something else that's important:
which is that the terms Edom, and Esau are interchangeable with each other and with the word, "gentiles". We read: “This is the account of Esau (that is, Edom). Esau took his wives from the women of Canaan: Adah daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Oholibamah daughter of Anah and granddaughter of Zibeon the Hivite—” (Genesis 36:1–2) “Now Esau learned that Isaac had blessed Jacob and had sent him to Paddan Aram to take a wife from there, and that when he blessed him he commanded him, “Do not marry a Canaanite woman,” and that Jacob had obeyed his father and mother and had gone to Paddan Aram. Esau then realized how displeasing the Canaanite women were to his father Isaac; so he went to Ishmael and married Mahalath, the sister of Nebaioth and daughter of Ishmael son of Abraham, in addition to the wives he already had.” (Genesis 28:6–9)
Just to refresh your memory on who the Canaanites were:
“Canaan was the father of Sidon his firstborn, and of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girgashites, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites and Hamathites. Later the Canaanite clans scattered and the borders of Canaan reached from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.” (Genesis 10:15–19)
We learn about Ishmael's sons in Genesis 25:12–18, and they are the ancestors of the Arabs, and have been bitter enemies of the Jew's sine Ismael was born.
Genesis 25:1–4 tells us that after Sarah died, Abraham got married again to Keturah and his new wife bore him 6 more sons. Keturah, is also called his concubine in Genesis 25:6 and 1Chronicles 1:32, so she was a wife of lower status than Sarah. Her sons became the ancestors of still other Arab tribes - also enemies of Israel.
So now we can see that Gentiles make up all people except for the Semites or who we today call the Jew's, Israel.
When I told you before that God had given land to Moab and Ammon, I forgot to tell you that He also gave land to Esau/Edom: “Give the people these orders: ‘You are about to pass through the territory of your brothers the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir. They will be afraid of you, but be very careful. Do not provoke them to war, for I will not give you any of their land, not even enough to put your foot on. I have given Esau the hill country of Seir as his own. You are to pay them in silver for the food you eat and the water you drink.’ ”” (Deuteronomy 2:4–6)
God is good and loving to all people, not just the Jewish people. He was always giving the gentiles as well as the Jew's another chance to choose Him instead of their wicked ways. Sadly that rarely happened. On the other hand, it did happen once in awhile. If you read the OT carefully, you'll find that there are individual gentiles mentioned as friends of Israel. Like the Moabites and Ammonites who were their national enemies, and yet one of each were numbered with David's mighty men. More then one King in Israel had friends who were from these gentile nations but who had come to believe in the One True God and worshiped Him in Jerusalem with the the Jew's. It was almost like even though Israel did not do their job of teaching the other nations about God, that some individuals discovered God through them anyway, almost as though it was an accident. But we know there are no accidents, so God must have led them to Israel where they could learn about Him. Like Ruth who was devoted to her mother in law, and chose to follow her to Israel and to adopt her God as her own God. The Lord rewarded her by making her the ancestor of our Lord. But there were many others who heard of Israel's God, and some chose to come and worship Him as their God too.
Most of them did not choose to do so, even though they had heard a lot about Israel's God, and often were very afraid of Him. If you read the OT carefully, you'll discover that all the gentiles knew about Israel's God. They chose to ignore Him, they chose to rebel against Him. They were not living in ignorance of Him. For example let's look at when Rahab made her choice to worship the True God: “Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.” (Joshua 2:8–11) This was true everywhere Israel went, not because they were doing their job and teaching people about the Lord, but simply because people naturally gossip, and so the stories of how they came out of Egypt, and everything that God did for them passed from one area to the next, and everywhere, people heard about their God and how He was more powerful than any of their gods. I'm sure it brought up old memories in their elders of the time long ago when they chose to follow their own ways instead of God's back in Babel.
So we can't say that the gentiles didn't know that what they were doing was wrong, they did know, and chose to do it anyway. Speaking of what the gentiles were doing that was so wicked, I'd like you to read Leviticus 17 and 18, Leviticus 19:26-Leviticus 20:21 as these are the laws God gave Israel so that they would not do what the gentiles were doing. Pay attention when you read it so that you understand the reason God tells Israel to do things a certain way. For example in chapter 17, verses 5 and 7 we're shown why they have to bring their sacrifices to the tent of meeting instead of just sacrificing anywhere they want to:
“This is so the Israelites will bring to the LORD the sacrifices they are now making in the open fields. They must bring them to the priest, that is, to the LORD, at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and sacrifice them as fellowship offerings.” (Leviticus 17:5) “They must no longer offer any of their sacrifices to the goat idols to whom they prostitute themselves. This is to be a lasting ordinance for them and for the generations to come.’” (Leviticus 17:7) because that's what the gentiles did. Then right at the beginning of chapter 18 we're told: “You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices.” (Leviticus 18:3) Then God begins to name some of those practices and tells them again not to do these things.
And toward the end of chapter 20 we're told: “You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.” (Leviticus 20:23)
When we read these chapters of Leviticus, we realize that God is showing us what is wicked and why the gentiles are going to be thrown out of their land. They are not innocent - they know that what they're doing is wicked, but they continued to do it anyway. Remember too that for these particular gentiles, God gave them over 400 years to repent of their sins and turn to Him, but 99% of them refused to do so. Those who did repent, stayed with Israel, those that did not, were killed by Israel. God used Israel as His judgement against them. God was very patient with them to give them that long to repent. He warned them many times, but still they continued, so that eventually He sent Israel to conquer them and kill them.
“Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.” (Romans 2:4–12)
“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.” (2 Peter 3:8–10)
God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He does not change. He demands holiness from us, just as He did from Israel. Israel too refused to obey Him, and look what they have been through because of that. And they still have the Tribulation to go through as well, because of their continued disobedience. You would think that the gentiles, (you and me) would learn from this lesson to obey God, but most of us, have not. Most of us, still do whatever we want to whether God approves of it or not.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 10, 2016 15:40:35 GMT -5
In Leviticus 17: 7 "They must no longer offer any of their sacrifices to the goat idols to whom they prostitute themselves."
Is the 'goat idol' the same as baphomet ( the goat image so many rock stars, new agers etc. are into today?)
In Leviticus 18:8 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living."
Didn't Jacob do that with Leah and Rachel ( tho he was tricked)?
Also, there are people who try to make the argument that the Bible does not have a problem with being 'gay/homosexual'....however in
Leviticus 18:22 it seems to me it's pretty clear wording that God does NOT approve
“‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."
It obviously is one of many sexual sins, but it is not OK.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 13, 2016 12:19:58 GMT -5
In Leviticus 17: 7 "They must no longer offer any of their sacrifices to the goat idols to whom they prostitute themselves."
Is the 'goat idol' the same as baphomet ( the goat image so many rock stars, new agers etc. are into today?)
In Leviticus 18:8 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living."
Didn't Jacob do that with Leah and Rachel ( tho he was tricked)?
Also, there are people who try to make the argument that the Bible does not have a problem with being 'gay/homosexual'....however in
Leviticus 18:22 it seems to me it's pretty clear wording that God does NOT approve
“‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."
It obviously is one of many sexual sins, but it is not OK.
Yes, that's what Jacob and many others did. God never condoned men having more then one wife, even though it was an accepted practice in all the pagan lands. Just as God does not condone homosexual relationships, even though it is now recognized as legal in many lands.
True, the bible is quite clear about it, but those who want to justify their sin, will twist God's word to make it say what they want it to say, no matter what the sin is. I remember trying to find out if premarital sex was a sin when I was a young teen. Of course the only bible I had was KJV and the words it used to describe sin were fornication and adultery. My bible dictionary defined adultery as sex with someone other than your spouse, and fornication was defined the same way. Needless to say, I knew in my heart that it was wrong, but I told myself that as long as I married the boy, it would be ok assuming that I didn't have sex with anyone but him and that we were married when we were old enough. That way of thinking really messed me up and my boyfriend too. Even back then when I was 14, I knew the bible well and my boyfriend didn't. So he believed whatever I told him. I felt guilty though even though I'd twisted God's word to make myself believe it would be ok. I felt dirty and felt that I had no other choice in life except to marry that boy because of what we'd done. It didn't matter whether or not he or I was happy or if we cared about each other. In my mind, there simply was no other option. Besides which, I felt that no other man would ever want me since I was no longer a virgin. Talk about carrying a whole lot of guilt and shame around for a long time! Eventually, when it became obvious that my boyfriend and I were not going to get married, (by the time I was 18) I decided that there was no reason not to have sex with someone since no one would want me anyway, and since I'd already spoiled myself for God. (I didn't think He would forgive me for it as I didn't understand that ALL my sins were forgiven. I thought only the sins I'd done before I was saved were forgiven, so I knew I was going to Hell, therefore I might as well do whatever I wanted to. Or so I told myself anyway.
I'm sure that many of the homosexuals who say that God's Word doesn't call homosexuality a sin, know in their hearts that it really does, just like I did about regular sex. If they do belong to God, if they are among the elect, God will convict them of their sin and show them His Truth at the exact moment that He knows they're ready. Just as He did me. And what a wonderful moment that will be when they realize that all their sins are paid for and that God has made them totally, 100% clean, even cleaner then they were at the moment of their birth as a baby! There are no outstanding charges against them, and He takes away our guilt and shame as well! I'll never ever forget that day, and I'm sure they won't either when that day arrives for them!
Anyway, as far as Jacob and many others in the Bible who sinned in this way, or any other way for that matter, I love how the Lord shows us by sharing their lives with us, sins and all, that when He forgives us and cleanses us, that we are truly clean, and He can and will still use us for great things to bring His Name great glory.
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Post by evafromgreece on Jun 13, 2016 15:41:17 GMT -5
Hey guys! Abrahan was the uncle of Lot, right?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 13, 2016 17:20:14 GMT -5
I have seen several recent you tube videos of former gay men, who have come to the Lord Jesus, repented of their former homosexual relationships and one young man's wife, was 9 mts pregnant ( he seemed to genuinely love the Lord).
So it does happen ( the turn around from the 'gay lifestyle') to repentance and a love for a woman. It was uplifting to see what God can do!!
I saw this crazy dedication to a Swedish ( I think) underground train....and it was the most demonic crazy ceremony! Part of the dancer/actors etc. was someone dressed like Baphomet ( goat creature costume) with eerie wailing (hardly dressed in any clothes), dancers....
What that had to do with a fast train opening ceremony stretched the imagination...
I could only watch 3 mins of it, and I was done.
A friend had sent me an e-mail of it...it was so demonic and bizarre!
But it sort of pointed out where the world is heading,
when what would have been a 'normal' ceremony, had morphed into something so creepy.
It's like satan's time is getting soooo close.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 13, 2016 17:23:03 GMT -5
Yes Eva: Abraham was Lot's uncle.
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Post by evafromgreece on Jun 14, 2016 8:37:36 GMT -5
“Now Esau learned that Isaac had blessed Jacob and had sent him to Paddan Aram to take a wife from there, and that when he blessed him he commanded him, “Do not marry a Canaanite woman,” and that Jacob had obeyed his father and mother and had gone to Paddan Aram. Esau then realized how displeasing the Canaanite women were to his father Isaac; so he went to Ishmael and married Mahalath, the sister of Nebaioth and daughter of Ishmael son of Abraham, in addition to the wives he already had.” (Genesis 28:6–9)
Esau and Mahalath were related, right?
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Post by evafromgreece on Jun 14, 2016 9:18:45 GMT -5
Remember too that for these particular gentiles, God gave them over 400 years to repent of their sins and turn to Him, but 99% of them refused to do so. Those who did repent, stayed with Israel, those that did not, were killed by Israel. God used Israel as His judgement against them. God was very patient with them to give them that long to repent. He warned them many times, but still they continued, so that eventually He sent Israel to conquer them and kill them.
Can we discuss the above a bit more?
Did God give dirrect orders to the gentiles, just like He did to the Jews? They obviously heard what happened to the Jews when they sinned , probaby they have known from their ancestors what happened to them when they sinned. But was this direct? Did He commanded them the way He did to Jews?
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Post by Cindy on Jun 14, 2016 11:23:44 GMT -5
Hey guys! Abrahan was the uncle of Lot, right? I have seen several recent you tube videos of former gay men, who have come to the Lord Jesus, repented of their former homosexual relationships and one young man's wife, was 9 mts pregnant ( he seemed to genuinely love the Lord).
So it does happen ( the turn around from the 'gay lifestyle') to repentance and a love for a woman. It was uplifting to see what God can do!!
I saw this crazy dedication to a Swedish ( I think) underground train....and it was the most demonic crazy ceremony! Part of the dancer/actors etc. was someone dressed like Baphomet ( goat creature costume) with eerie wailing (hardly dressed in any clothes), dancers....
What that had to do with a fast train opening ceremony stretched the imagination...
I could only watch 3 mins of it, and I was done.
A friend had sent me an e-mail of it...it was so demonic and bizarre!
But it sort of pointed out where the world is heading,
when what would have been a 'normal' ceremony, had morphed into something so creepy.
It's like satan's time is getting soooo close. Yes Eva: Abraham was Lot's uncle.  “Now Esau learned that Isaac had blessed Jacob and had sent him to Paddan Aram to take a wife from there, and that when he blessed him he commanded him, “Do not marry a Canaanite woman,” and that Jacob had obeyed his father and mother and had gone to Paddan Aram. Esau then realized how displeasing the Canaanite women were to his father Isaac; so he went to Ishmael and married Mahalath, the sister of Nebaioth and daughter of Ishmael son of Abraham, in addition to the wives he already had.” (Genesis 28:6–9) Esau and Mahalath were related, right?
Remember too that for these particular gentiles, God gave them over 400 years to repent of their sins and turn to Him, but 99% of them refused to do so. Those who did repent, stayed with Israel, those that did not, were killed by Israel. God used Israel as His judgement against them. God was very patient with them to give them that long to repent. He warned them many times, but still they continued, so that eventually He sent Israel to conquer them and kill them. Can we discuss the above a bit more? Did God give dirrect orders to the gentiles, just like He did to the Jews? They obviously heard what happened to the Jews when they sinned , probaby they have known from their ancestors what happened to them when they sinned. But was this direct? Did He commanded them the way He did to Jews?
It's the same thing we see today. People know about God and they know that all they have to do is read the bible to discover the truth and how to please Him, and they choose not to. (or, if bibles are not available to them, they know that they only have to seek Him through prayer) They choose instead to do what they want to do, and therefore, God is allowing them to do just that. One day soon, they will all be judged, right along with all the gentiles that have lived since the flood, and all will be sent to Hell. (God will also judge the Jew's who chose not to obey Him, and they too will be sent to Hell.) God does not see people as Jew's, gentiles, Greeks, Americans, Europeans, etc. He sees each person for the individual they are and He judges each person individually based on the knowledge they had of Him and what they did with it.
God is completely fair and just. He does not force anyone to choose to obey Him. He lets us make our own choices, knowing that one day we will have to answer for the choices we have made.
To us, what happened during Abraham's lifetime seems a long time after the flood, but for them, it wasn't. Abraham was the 10th generation from Noah and therefore could have even known Noah, just as Noah could have known Adam and Eve. If we can know someone in the 7th generation of our family, then it's entirely possible for them with their much longer lives to have known someone from the 10th generation.
We might as well talk about this next then. You guys will have to do some reading and then we'll discuss it tomorrow, God willing. Happy Reading!
“I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.” (Romans 9:1–5)
“It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”” (Romans 9:6–9)
“Then the LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.” (Genesis 18:10)
“Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”” (Romans 9:10–12)
“Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. The LORD answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. The LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.”” (Genesis 25:21–23)
“When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. The first to come out was red, and his whole body was like a hairy garment; so they named him Esau. After this, his brother came out, with his hand grasping Esau’s heel; so he was named Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when Rebekah gave birth to them.” (Genesis 25:24–26)
“Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”” (Romans 9:13)
““I have loved you,” says the LORD. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” the LORD says. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.” Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.” But this is what the LORD Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the LORD—even beyond the borders of Israel!’” (Malachi 1:2–5)
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Post by evafromgreece on Jun 14, 2016 15:00:31 GMT -5
To conclude Abraham descendants are all people who have respect to the Lord, right?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 14, 2016 15:14:02 GMT -5
I remember asking you once before about the verse where God says Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated...
But I forgot how you explained it?
Because on first reading it sounds like a type of election where even before they were born God chose Jacob but not Esau....but I think you said that was not really what it was saying?
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Post by Cindy on Jun 15, 2016 12:27:37 GMT -5
yes, and they disobeyed Him. Remember when I told you about how God told them to spread out over the earth and they refused and settled in Babylon instead and made that tower? That was the last time He spoke directly with them as a group. They knew His laws and how to worship Him and how to please Him, but chose not to. They chose to make their own gods and do what they wanted to instead. After that, God found one man out of all of them that was still obeying Him, the man who's name was changed to Abraham, and God made a nation out of His descendants - Israel. We know too that if one single person out of all the gentiles alive had chosen to try to please God, that God would have moved heaven and earth to help them and they would have been saved. Because none did, (except for Abraham), God left them to do what they wanted. God never forces Himself on anyone.
It's the same thing we see today. People know about God and they know that all they have to do is read the bible to discover the truth and how to please Him, and they choose not to. (or, if bibles are not available to them, they know that they only have to seek Him through prayer) They choose instead to do what they want to do, and therefore, God is allowing them to do just that. One day soon, they will all be judged, right along with all the gentiles that have lived since the flood, and all will be sent to Hell. (God will also judge the Jew's who chose not to obey Him, and they too will be sent to Hell.) God does not see people as Jew's, gentiles, Greeks, Americans, Europeans, etc. He sees each person for the individual they are and He judges each person individually based on the knowledge they had of Him and what they did with it.
God is completely fair and just. He does not force anyone to choose to obey Him. He lets us make our own choices, knowing that one day we will have to answer for the choices we have made.
To us, what happened during Abraham's lifetime seems a long time after the flood, but for them, it wasn't. Abraham was the 10th generation from Noah and therefore could have even known Noah, just as Noah could have known Adam and Eve. If we can know someone in the 7th generation of our family, then it's entirely possible for them with their much longer lives to have known someone from the 10th generation.
We might as well talk about this next then. You guys will have to do some reading and then we'll discuss it tomorrow, God willing. Happy Reading!
“I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.” (Romans 9:1–5)
“It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”” (Romans 9:6–9)
“Then the LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.” (Genesis 18:10)
“Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”” (Romans 9:10–12)
“Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. The LORD answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. The LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.”” (Genesis 25:21–23)
“When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. The first to come out was red, and his whole body was like a hairy garment; so they named him Esau. After this, his brother came out, with his hand grasping Esau’s heel; so he was named Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when Rebekah gave birth to them.” (Genesis 25:24–26)
“Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”” (Romans 9:13)
““I have loved you,” says the LORD. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” the LORD says. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.” Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.” But this is what the LORD Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the LORD—even beyond the borders of Israel!’” (Malachi 1:2–5)
To conclude Abraham descendants are all people who have respect to the Lord, right? I remember asking you once before about the verse where God says Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated...
But I forgot how you explained it?
Because on first reading it sounds like a type of election where even before they were born God chose Jacob but not Esau....but I think you said that was not really what it was saying?
In Romans 9:1–5 Paul tells us about 7 blessings that Israel as a nation had been given, and yet even with all those blessings they had not recognized their Savior and did not accept Him. This broke Paul's heart. Reading about all those blessings that had been given to Israel, someone might ask, "If God gave them all of that, and did all of that for them, then did God's Word fail to do what He wanted it to do, since they did not accept Christ as their Messiah?" Paul tells us the answer to that question next: “It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”” (Romans 9:6–9) His answer would have upset many of the Jew's for he was saying there were two kinds of Israel and two kinds of "election". First, God chose physical, historical Israel by selecting Abraham & his descendants through which He accomplished many things, including the establishment of Scripture and the line of descent through which Jesus would be born. Second, God chose certain individuals to be saved. In other words, not everyone who was born as a physical descendant of Israel was saved, and some who were not born to physical Israel were saved. This is why Paul quoted the verse from Genesis: “Then the LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.” (Genesis 18:10) Abraham's first born son was Ishmael, who was born to Abraham by Hagar, Sarah's maid, but God did not choose him. After Ishmael was born, Abraham had a son by Sarah, Isaac, and God chose him to be part of the covenant. Later, after Sarah died, Abraham married Keturah and had 6 more sons by her, but God did not choose any of them either. (1 Chronicles 1:32) Tradition in those days was that the first born son always got the largest blessing, the largest inheritance, but God did not do things the way the world did, He did things His own way, and chose the second born son of Abraham to continue the line of descent that would lead to the birth of Jesus.
Since Abraham had been the father of both Isaac and Ishamel as well as keturah's sons, but his sons had different mothers, Paul continued to explain by saying that God not only chose the son of one mother over the son of another mother, but also one twin over another twin: “Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”” (Romans 9:10–12) God chose the twin who was born second over the one who was born first, again doing the opposite of what the world would have done. Not only that, but we're told in that God chose this son before he was even born! So the baby obviously had not done anything to cause God to choose him. God did not choose this second son because of His foreknowledge of what he would do in the future either. This is telling us that people are chosen simply because of God’s choice, not our lineage, merit, or achievements.
Finally Paul says: “Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” (Romans 9:13–16) That first sentence tends to confuse many of us. Paul is quoting from Malachi which says: ““I have loved you,” says the LORD. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” the LORD says. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.” Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.” But this is what the LORD Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the LORD—even beyond the borders of Israel!’” (Malachi 1:2–5) When we say we love or hate someone, we are talking about how we feel emotionally about them, but that is not what God is talking about when He says this. This is talking about God's commitment to a Messianic line and promise. So this is showing God's priority - who He has chosen to be in the Messianic line. In fact, the verses that Paul is quoting from are not talking about only the men, Jacob and Esau, but are speaking about their descendants, the nation of Israel and the nation of Edom which descended from Esau.
But let's look at what Malachi is saying in context. Esau had rejected his birthright & held both his birthright and the promises of God in contempt. Moses had told Israel not to despise the Edomites. (Deuteronomy 23:7) But Esau's descendants, the Edomites, believed that Israel had taken the land of Canaan by deception. Because of that, they were constantly trying to harm Israel. Even after Israel was divided into two lands, Israel and Judah, Edom continued to harass them. Just before Malachi wrote this, they had cooperated with the Assyrian invasion of Judah, and when the Judeans were taken into exile they claimed the land for themselves. For these reasons they came under the Lord’s judgment (Ezekiel 35:5–15; Ezekiel 36:1–15). When the Judean exiles returned to the region of Jerusalem the Edomites further opposed them. This was the situation when Malachi heard the Lord saying, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau”. When God says He hates Esau, He is simply saying that He had favored Jacob with a special privilege. So God's "hatred" of Esau was only the other side of His loyalty to His covenant with Israel.
Our human nature wants to call God unjust for choosing one person over the other, and Paul was aware of that. That's why he wrote this: “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” (Romans 9:14–16) Paul is reminding us that if God chose people based only on righteousness, then no one would ever be saved, because we all deserve to go to hell. Paul quoted Exodus 33:19 here to show that God extends His mercy and compassion according to His Will, and not ours, because we all deserve to be condemned, but God chooses to give us mercy instead. Because of that, God chose one man, one family, and one nation to bring us the Messiah who would die for the sins of us all. When we realize that God could react toward us (mankind) in raw power sending us all to hell or destroying us all, it's amazing that He chose instead to exercise mercy and compassion and choose to save many of us instead. Not only that, but God's choices never violate any of His attributes. (Some of His attributes are: omnipotence, omniscience, eternality, glory, sovereignty, unfailing love, His compassion and mercy, wisdom, justice, righteousness, holiness, etc) It's hard to understand, but God's sovereignty does not violate our free will either. The problem is that we can't really understand all of this completely. Some people get very upset because they can't understand it. But if we could understand everything about God, then He wouldn't be God, He wouldn't be any more intelligent than we are, and we know that God's wisdom is far beyond our intelligence! Therefore, when I come to something like this that we humans are simply not able to understand, I simply accept it, knowing that God is always right, and He loves me so I have nothing to fear from it.
Finally, let me quote from a commentary as I think it sums this up better than I could:
God’s gracious and merciful plan does not violate human freedom. To select Jacob over Esau reflects God’s choice to have the nation Israel come through Jacob’s descendants, not Esau’s. In saying God “hated” Esau, Paul did not imply that God excluded him from salvation. For Messiah’s line, God chose the tribe of Judah (not the most noble of characters), rather than the descendants of Joseph (a true believer). In that sense, he “hated” Joseph but “loved” Judah. God executes His redemptive, gracious plan as He pleases. Humans have no claim on God. So, on the national level, God sovereignly decided to have mercy on Israel (including the patriarchs). Nevertheless, Abraham’s physical children cannot claim they are automatically “elected” for salvation and are therefore “righteous” apart from genuine faith in Christ. God’s gracious election also operates for salvation: God has determined to save those who trust in His Son. God will have mercy on whom He wills to have mercy, and no claim even of Jewish descent will override what the divine Potter chooses to do. The Apologetics Study Bible
We can discuss this more if you'd like to.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 15, 2016 15:55:38 GMT -5
This time the meaning sunk in!! I think its the word 'hated' meaning for most people today, does not mean the same as back then.
I wonder if the Hebrew or Aramaic? word 'hated' actually has a meaning more like.... God's sovereign choice?
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Post by Cindy on Jun 16, 2016 10:00:31 GMT -5
This time the meaning sunk in!! I think its the word 'hated' meaning for most people today, does not mean the same as back then.
I wonder if the Hebrew or Aramaic? word 'hated' actually has a meaning more like.... God's sovereign choice?
Let me see if I can say all of this a bit more simply:
In the beginning God created Adam and Eve and they were perfect, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. They had a good relationship with God and spoke with Him daily. They knew what He required of them and they loved Him. But Satan came and put doubt in Eve's mind and she sinned, then Adam knowingly sinned as well and their minds and hearts became corrupted by sin. Because of that sin, the whole earth and everything on it became tainted with sin and began to decay and die. God could no longer have a relationship with Adam and Eve like He used to, but He had a plan to save them and the rest of humanity.
Adam and Eve then had children who were conceived and born in sin and were themselves corrupted by it as would be all humans from that time on as sin is like a contagious virus that spreads quickly attacking everyone. Sin not only spreads, it also tends to grow and accumulate so the people and the earth became darker and darker with sin. Finally everyone was so wicked that God had to wipe out everyone and everything He had made on the earth, except for one man and his family who still worshiped Him and tried to please Him. That man was Noah.
After the flood, sin again began to spread and accumulate. Mankind again quickly rebelled against God, and things continued to go downhill. But there was again one man who still loved God and tried to please him, that man was Abram, and God chose him and his wife Sarai, later changing his name to Abraham and hers to Sarah.
As I said before, sin spreads and accumulates so with each generation it was getting worse and worse. But there was never a time after Adam and Eve that anyone born could live with God and have a relationship with Him because every single person born was wicked and full of sin, and therefore deserved nothing but to go to Hell. We are used to sin and we don't see it as being as bad as it is. It must have seemed horrible to Adam and Eve but as time went on, people very quickly became used to it as it was part of them, so it seemed normal to them very quickly. Just as people who live with chronic pain, have to be very careful because pain is no longer something that causes them to think that something is wrong and that they should see a doctor, so people with chronic sin, (which was everyone) no longer realized that sin was something terribly wrong that they desperately needed to be rid of. Sin corrupts everything - our thoughts, our feelings, and because of that our words and actions. There was no one on earth that was "better" than anyone else. Not even Abraham or Noah or even Enoch, who was taken to heaven without dying. (Genesis 5:22–24) The reason God took him to be with Him in heaven was because Enoch loved God and did his best to please Him all the time for over 300 years. Enoch still sinned though, but because he tried so hard to please God in an ungodly world, God decided to keep him from experiencing the wages of sin, which is death. Because our minds are corrupted and because sin is so much a part of us and our world, it's very hard for us to understand just how sinful and how corrupted we are. The more we grow in our faith though, the more God changes us to be like Jesus, the more of our sinfulness we see and the better we understand just how awful sin is and what it does to us.
God chose Noah and his family, and later Abraham and his family, not because they were righteous and good, but simply because it was His choice and those particular people did still try to please Him even though they were by no means perfect. When God first called Abram, He made a promise to him that He would make him into a great nation and bless him, and bless those who were good to him and curse those who were not. (Genesis 12:2–3) Later, God made a covenant with him promising to give his descendants the land of Israel in Genesis 15:18–21.
From Abraham's children, God chose Isaac to be the child of God's promise to Abraham, the promise that would someday bring about the Messiah who would save the people of earth from sin. From each generation after Isaac, God chose another person to continue the line of promise that would eventually bring about the birth of the Messiah. God chose one sinner over another sinner to be in that line. He did not choose one person because they were better than another person. In Deuteronomy 7:7–8 and Deuteronomy 9:6 we're told that God didn't choose these people to become the physical nation of Israel and the physical line that the Messiah would come from because of anything special about them, but instead because "He loved them" and because of the promise He made to Abraham. When God says it's because He loved them in these scriptures, He is not speaking of loving them like we mean when we say it. He is saying the same thing here that we talked about when He said He hated Esau but loved Jacob. In other words, He chose them because it was His sovereign choice.
However, when God chooses someone, He always does so for a reason, and the reason He chose Abraham and his descendants to create the nation of Israel was so that they would learn His commands and what He requires of us, and would be holy, and teach others about Him. He said they would be a holy nation of priests and would teach others about Him. That is why He constantly told them not to copy the ways of the world for the world was full of sin and if they were to be the opposite of that. They were to first learn His ways, and then live according to His ways, so they could show the world what pleases God, and bring others to salvation. It's really amazing how quickly God's plan came about, because when God chose Abraham's grandson Jacob to continue the line of blessing, God changed his name to Israel. Jacob's (Israel's) sons would become the fathers of the 12 tribes of Israel!
Let me repeat myself again: everyone that lived was a sinner who deserved nothing but hell. Out of all those sinners, God in His mercy chose some people who He would teach so that they in turn could teach the rest of the world about Him, and everyone could be saved. At the same time, God was also choosing people who would eventually bring the Messiah into the world. God did not save or create Israel because they were good or better, but because He wanted to save everyone!
From the time that God changes Jacob's name to Israel, in Genesis 32:28, on we are continually shown how wicked everyone, both Israel and the gentiles were, and how different the people who did try to please God were from the rest of the world. God shows us their sins so we can learn from them. For example, He does not want us to read about Jacob's sins and think how bad Jacob was, He wants us to see ourselves when we read about the sins of others.
Lastly, in the old testament, you will see names such as “the Amorites” which is just another name for the for Canaanites in general, and which for the most part are simply called "the gentiles" in the new testament. The only time we have to be specific about which group of gentiles God is talking about is when we are studying prophecy concerning the tribulation, so we will know exactly who is going to attack who. We'll get into that later though. For now, we don't really have to be concerned with who is who, and can simply consider everyone gentiles except for those who belong to the tribes of Israel.
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