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Post by Cindy on May 17, 2016 9:21:47 GMT -5
Before we start this study, I want to ask you to please, please stop me if there is anything, anything at all you do not understand in what I've posted. Do not wait and think you'll ask later. Even if it's just one word you don't understand, please ask me. I am going to try very hard to keep my posts as short as possible so that I won't get ahead of you, so it is important that you read it and reply daily so that I'll know if there is anything I need to explain before I continue.
Secondly, I do not want this to take you away from your daily time with the Lord. If that becomes a problem, please let me know and choose your daily time with the Lord instead of this. You (or we) can always come back to this later.
We are going to start with the Tribulation period, even though the rapture will happen before it. The reason I am doing it this way is because once we understand why the tribulation will happen, we will better understand why the rapture must happen first.
It's important that you understand what the terms that are used mean.
The Tribulation, which is also called "Jacob's Trouble" describes 7 years of God's Wrath being poured out on the earth. Jesus gives us many signs so we will know when the Tribulation is getting close to happening. Dan. 9:24–27; Jeremiah 30:7;
The Rapture is when Jesus comes in the air but does not come down to the earth; He comes to take the Church out of the world instantaneously. No one will see Him except for those who are saved, and they won't see Him until they are rising in the air to meet Him. We are not given any "signs" to watch for that must happen before the rapture. It can happen at any time. 1 Thess. 4:15–17; 1 Cor. 15:51–57;
The Second Coming or Second Advent is when Jesus returns to the earth and defeats the Antichrist and false prophet and all their followers at Armageddon, which is where the last battle will be fought. We, all those who have been saved since Jesus came the first time, and all the angels, will return with Jesus to the earth at the Second Coming. Jesus gives us many signs so we will know when it it getting close to His return. Acts 1:10–11; 2 Thess. 1:6–10; Matthew 24:30;
Israel describes all the people of Jewish descent.
The Church, also called The Body of Christ describes all (Jew or Gentile) who have come to faith in Jesus as their Savior and been born again from the time He came the first time, until the rapture. Those who are saved after the rapture, will not belong to the Body of Christ. One reason is because the body of Christ will already be in Heaven. Eph. 5:23–27; Col. 1:18;
The Millennium describes the 1000 years that Jesus will rule with a "rod of iron" on the earth, after the Tribulation. Rev. 20:2–7;
Those are the basic terms we will be using during this study. Please make notes about them if they are unfamiliar to you as they can get confusing otherwise. (and put the notes in your bible too!)
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383 
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Post by fearnot on May 17, 2016 13:39:55 GMT -5
I have 2 immediate questions
I am a little confused by I Corthians 15:52
where it says:
52 "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet".
The confusion is this verse says the 'last' trumpet, but during the tribulation there will be 7 trumpets....so how can that be the 'last' when 7 more are coming?
Or is it the 'last' in the sense, its the last, before,
the tribulation
( are there others trumpets before the tribulation and this is the 'last' of those before the trib)?
My 2nd is I would like ( if possible) to understand a bit more about those saved during the tribulation who are not of the body of Christ.
I know they will be saved ( and mostly martyrs?) but what is a saved person who is not of the body?
What does that mean more exactly, if we can know?
I do not want to hog all of your time, and because I know ( well am pretty sure LOL) that Eva may have questions also ( and may ask some of those that I might wonder about after a few hours of reflection), I will just ask those two that came to mind.
But if something else does occur and should Eva not ask,
then I will come back later today, and ask some more.
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Post by evafromgreece on May 17, 2016 14:36:57 GMT -5
Hello guys :)
I am not sure if I have to ask something on this, because I am sure we will get into details later.
Two small things only. Cindy asked in the other thread if we know why tribulation has to be for 7 years and I forgot to answer. I dont know why.
Also, people who get saved after the rapture? What is going to happen with them? How are they going to be saved also when the church is already gone?
Thanks guys :)
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Post by Cindy on May 18, 2016 7:27:05 GMT -5
I have 2 immediate questions
I am a little confused by I Corthians 15:52
where it says:
52 "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet".
The confusion is this verse says the 'last' trumpet, but during the tribulation there will be 7 trumpets....so how can that be the 'last' when 7 more are coming?
Or is it the 'last' in the sense, its the last, before,
the tribulation
( are there others trumpets before the tribulation and this is the 'last' of those before the trib)?
My 2nd is I would like ( if possible) to understand a bit more about those saved during the tribulation who are not of the body of Christ.
I know they will be saved ( and mostly martyrs?) but what is a saved person who is not of the body?
What does that mean more exactly, if we can know?
I do not want to hog all of your time, and because I know ( well am pretty sure LOL) that Eva may have questions also ( and may ask some of those that I might wonder about after a few hours of reflection), I will just ask those two that came to mind.
But if something else does occur and should Eva not ask,
then I will come back later today, and ask some more.
I'm glad you're all excited about this and full of questions, but my first post was just to introduce the various terms that we'll be using as I wanted to be sure Eva understood them. I promise we'll get to all that you've asked about and more when we get to that portion of the study, ok?
Hello guys :) I am not sure if I have to ask something on this, because I am sure we will get into details later. Two small things only. Cindy asked in the other thread if we know why tribulation has to be for 7 years and I forgot to answer. I dont know why. Also, people who get saved after the rapture? What is going to happen with them? How are they going to be saved also when the church is already gone? Thanks guys :) |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 18, 2016 9:37:48 GMT -5
Oh about the why 7 years question, I am thinking it's basically God's dealing with Israel. I am not sure but I think at least 1/3 will come to a saving grace believing and trusting Jesus as their Messiah.
I am pretty sure people who are not jewish will be saved also, but His main focus is the Jewish people who were set aside, and now that the church is gone, it will be mainly about them?
But why exactly 7 years, no.
Oh thank you for the trumpet answer, that explains it.
It's funny, I had mentioned it to Leonard, and it got him to thinking, and he found an article by Damien Duck who actually said almost the same thing, only he gave a quote where it actually calls it the trumpet of God.
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Post by Cindy on May 18, 2016 11:02:07 GMT -5
The first part of the OT shows us the beginning of man and how he sinned and how that sin multiplied in the land until eventually God destroyed everything but those He saved in the ark with Noah and His family. After that, we again see how the people began spreading out across the earth and again sin multiplied and the people became wicked, but God found Abraham and established a nation through him. Genesis 17:1–8 tells us about the covenant God made with Abraham.
Eventually God made the nation of Israel from Abraham's descendants and He did give Israel the Land, but their possession of it was determined by their obedience to God, which He warned them about many times, including Deut 11:26-28. Then in Deut 28, God told them exactly what their blessings would be if they obeyed and exactly what their curse would be if they disobeyed Him. The curse would be used to discipline them. It would be a good idea to read chapter 28 and see this for yourself. Keep in mind that all the land that God gave to Israel was given to them because of the wickedness of the Gentiles that were living there. This alone should have been a vivid reminder to them that they should not anger the Lord and disobey Him, but sadly it wasn't. In Deuteronomy 7:6–8 and Deuteronomy 9:6 the Lord told them why He chose them, and that it was not because they were righteous or the biggest nation or any great thing like that, but simply because He was God and chose to love them and kept His promises, like the one He made to Abraham.
In the next portion of the OT, we learn about how Israel went into Egypt and eventually became slaves there. After 400 years, the Lord called Moses to rescue them and bring them out of Egypt and into the land God had promised Abraham He would give them.
After God brought the Jew's out of Egypt, He did something very, very important to the Jew's and to the gentiles. First, He fulfilled the prophecy He'd given Moses by bringing them all to the foot of Mount Sinai to worship Him there. But He also gave Moses a message for the people. Let me share these very important scriptures with you: “Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. The people all responded together, “We will do everything the LORD has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.” (Exodus 19:3–8)
Notice that God told Israel what their job was going to be. Just as He saves us so we can do the good works He planned for us to do, so He saved them so they could do the work He had planned for them. The work He had for them was to be His priests. Their job was to tell the world about Him. Notice that the entire nation together said that they would obey everything the Lord said to them. Notice that the Lord had 3 titles for them, 1. a treasured possession, 2. a kingdom of priests, and 3. a holy nation. These titles show the blessings that would be theirs if they obeyed Him. They would belong especially to the Lord, and would represent Him on the earth, and would be set apart to Him for His purposes. Another important thing to keep in mind is that God said this blessing was conditional. There is an "if" before He tells them the blessing and the "if' is "if they obey Him fully" then these 3 titles would be theirs and they would have these blessings as well as all those He promised Abraham.
Next, God told Moses to tell prepare all of Israel to hear from Him. Moses told Israel that they had to wash themselves and their clothes and then he would consecrate them so they'd be ready to hear from God. Israel spent two days washing and being consecrated and they were ready to Hear from God on the third day. Moses had also told them that God would be on the mountain so no one, not even an animal could touch the mountain or they would die, because God is Holy and cannot be where sin is. On the third day, there was the sound of a trumpet which announced the presence of God on the mountain, and all of Israel gathered together at the foot of the mountain to listen to Him. (Exodus 19:16) The Lord descended to the top of the mountain and called Moses to come up to meet Him. It was at this time that the Lord gave Moses the 10 commandments.
Did you notice that there was the sound of a trumpet blast which announced the presence of God? That's why there will be the sound of a trumpet at the rapture as well, because it will be announcing the presence of God.
We've already seen how Israel seemed to constantly fall away and sin against God, so He would punish them and then they would repent and He'd rescue them again. This continued until they were sent to Babylon for 70 years. It was during and toward the end of that time that God told His prophets, including Daniel, what was going to happen to Israel and to the Gentiles as well.
We see right at the very start that Israel did not obey the Lord very well or very often. They would rejoice in how He rescued them, and then turn right around and worship idols instead of Him! God disciplined them each time they did this and each time they sinned in other ways, trying to teach them that obedience brought blessings and disobedience brought pain and heartache. After many unnecessary delays because of their disobedience, God finally established them in the promised land. And again, they began the same routine of disobedience! They would disobey Him and He would discipline them. Then when they cried out to be saved again, in His love and mercy He would again rescue them. What they didn't seem to understand was that each time, He was really rescuing them from themselves because it was their own sin that brought the hardships onto them.
If you read Deut 28, you may have noticed that the curses got worse as they went along. They started out affecting the people themselves with sickness and or poverty or both, then eventually became so bad that they said they would be conquered by other nations and forced to leave the promised land and become slaves again in other lands. As we read the history of Israel in the OT we see this is just what happened to them. Each time they disobeyed the sentence against them was a little worse then the one before, they would eventually repent and turn to God, and He would rescue them and then the whole cycle would start over again. In between each cycle the Lord sent prophets to warn the people and remind them to obey Him, but they never listened to them, or perhaps I should say that very few ever listened to them. God always kept a remnant of people who belonged to Him alone. During this time too the nation of Israel became divided into two houses instead of just one and became Israel and Judah, the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom.
Finally God allowed Assyria to defeat Israel, and the Babylonians to conquer Judah and their captivity and slavery to the Babylonians was the worst and lasted for 70 years. He did this because their sin of idolatry had become so pervasive that there were very few people left that truly worshiped Him. When they were taken captive by Babylon, God removed the turban which represented the priestly leadership and He removed the crown which represented the succession of Kings. ““ ‘O profane and wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Take off the turban, remove the crown. It will not be as it was: The lowly will be exalted and the exalted will be brought low. A ruin! A ruin! I will make it a ruin! It will not be restored until he comes to whom it rightfully belongs; to him I will give it.’” (Ezekiel 21:25–27) Neither office was fully restored after they returned from this captivity. That's very important to remember. Another important detail about this is that this is when “the times of the Gentiles” which is spoken of in the NT actually began. “They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) Because this is so important, we are going to start with the Babylonian exile.
“This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. “But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt,” declares the LORD, “and will make it desolate forever.” (Jeremiah 25:11–12) The prophet Daniel was one of the ones who were captured and taken to Babylon. He was righteous and loved God and studied His Word, especially the prophecies of Jeremiah such as the one above, who was also alive during this time. When he saw that the captivity was to last for 70 years, he began praying, because he knew those years were almost up. “In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom— in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.” (Daniel 9:1–3) Because he searched God's Word and listened to God's prophets, God showed Him what His plan for Israel was.
““Seventy ‘sevens’ (70 “sevens” is a span of 490 years.) are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”” (Daniel 9:24–27)
The 70 “sevens” would begin, with the issuing of the decree to restore & rebuild Jerusalem. The decree took place on March 4, 444 b.c. (Neh. 2:1–8).
The first 7 weeks or 49 years covers the end of Nehemiah's career in rebuilding Jerusalem and the end of the ministry of Malachi and the close of the Old Testament.
The 62 weeks or 434 more years for a total of 483 years takes us to the first advent of the Messiah. This was fulfilled at the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem.
The Messiah, or the "anointed one" will be “cut off,” is talking about when Jesus died on the cross;
and the final 7 years or 70th week will be the time of Antichrist during the Tribulation period.
"The people of the ruler who will come" are the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem in ad 70.
"desolations have been decreed" are God's judgements, His Wrath being poured out during the Tribulation
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ " Is talking about the 7 year treaty that the Antichrist will confirm with Israel saying that he will protect her and allowing her to have their temple and worship restored.
"In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." Half way through the 7 years of the Tribulation would be 3 and a half years. So 3 and a half years after agreeing to the treaty with Israel, the Antichrist will break the treaty and force them to stop their worship and sacrifices at their temple. We are told how he will do this:
"And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation," An abomination is something that causes disgust; something that is detestable. When it involves the temple it would "defile" it, making it so that it was "unclean" and Israel would not be able to worship in it anymore until it had been cleansed again.
Daniel prophesied that the Temple would be used for an “abominable” purpose at some time in the future. As a result, God’s faithful people would no longer worship there—so great would be their moral revulsion, contempt, and abhorrence at the sacrilege—and the Temple would become “desolate.” Nelson’s new illustrated Bible dictionary
Jesus spoke about this too: ““So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” (Matthew 24:15–16). "The Holy place" was the area inside the temple where the ark of the covenant would have been, behind the curtain that was torn in two when Jesus died. John wrote that the false prophet will set up an image to this ruler and that the world will be compelled to worship it instead of God: “Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.” (Revelation 13:14–15) When we put this and other scriptures together we find that the Antichrist will surround Jerusalem with soldiers and will set up His image in the temple and force all the people to worship him instead of God. This is what Jesus warned them about and told them that when they saw this, they should flee to the mountains. Here are a couple of other scriptures that talk about it: ““When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” (Mark 13:14) ““When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.” (Luke 21:20) Daniel also speaks of it again: ““From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.” (Daniel 12:11) The angel said that 1,290 days will be measured off from the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished. The last half of the 70th “seven” of years is “a time, times, and half a time”. We see this in Daniel 7:25 and Rev 12:14. which is 3 and a half years. It is also called 42 months in Rev 11:2 and 1,260 days in Rev 11:3. This leaves us with an extra 30 days which is the time during which Jesus will judge the people and nations after the Tribulation.
Keep in mind when reading this that this is God's plan for Israel. At the time God revealed this to Daniel, Israel was in bondage to Babylon and Jerusalem and much of the country of Israel had been destroyed. When Daniel heard all of this, he was horrified! He was horrified because he hoped, like we all do, that Israel would behave themselves and obey God after He rescued them from Babylon, but this showed him that while God would indeed rescue them yet again, that they still would not obey Him and would therefore have to face more punishment and discipline for their sins.
This is already much longer and more involved then I intended it to get, so I'm going to stop here for now. You should probably look up the scriptures I've posted for you and read them for yourself to get a better idea of what has happened and what will happen.
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Post by evafromgreece on May 18, 2016 15:46:06 GMT -5
Hello guys :)
I have one question. Did people in the OT count days , hours and years in the same day as we do now? 1 year= 12 months etc? Because if not, we might miss something. I am not sure.
Also, about the Jewish people. They had the OT, they read the prophets. It amazes me how they did not see anything of these while reading the OT, and how they dont see it until now...
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 18, 2016 17:40:20 GMT -5
Eva: It kind of like how people today don't see the end times racing towards them ( tho many are beginning to just recently)
Cindy: I was thinking when you said that the Jews did not obey God very well, or very often, that could be said of me, unhappily.
I also wonder ( as just an aside) if it would be a good way for parents to raise children ( to some extent anyway) by obedience bringing blessings and disobedience not.
I wonder if the Image that has been breathed into and that can speak and kill, be some type of robotic/android mixed with human/demon brains.
I know we won't really know until we know, but they are doing such scary things with androids and by the time the anti-Christ is on the world's scene they may have figured out how to do the final stage of downloading a human brain into such a thing. At least they are madly at work on such an abomination.
I did read Deut. 28 and it was depressing to read all the curses. I understand they were warned, and made the choice to sin, so they brought it on themselves. If they wanted blessings they could have asked God to help them choose to obey.
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Post by Cindy on May 19, 2016 10:39:47 GMT -5
Hello guys :) I have one question. Did people in the OT count days , hours and years in the same day as we do now? 1 year= 12 months etc? Because if not, we might miss something. I am not sure. Also, about the Jewish people. They had the OT, they read the prophets. It amazes me how they did not see anything of these while reading the OT, and how they dont see it until now...
But they did see Eva, at least some of them did, just as some of us now see. Daniel saw it and that's why he prayed and was given more revelation. All the prophets saw it too. Even a few of the common people saw it, as God always has a remnant that truly belongs to Him and He tells us that He will always tell those who love Him and obey Him what He's going to do. Sadly, most people then, just like most people now, really don't want to know God or have anything to do with Him. Then there's another group that pretend to want to know Him, but what they really want is just His gifts, and they don't really care about Him at all. In fact, if they can get what they want another way, even from Satan, they will, because that's what they care about, not God.
Eva: It kind of like how people today don't see the end times racing towards them ( tho many are beginning to just recently)
Cindy: I was thinking when you said that the Jews did not obey God very well, or very often, that could be said of me, unhappily.
I also wonder ( as just an aside) if it would be a good way for parents to raise children ( to some extent anyway) by obedience bringing blessings and disobedience not.
I wonder if the Image that has been breathed into and that can speak and kill, be some type of robotic/android mixed with human/demon brains.
I know we won't really know until we know, but they are doing such scary things with androids and by the time the anti-Christ is on the world's scene they may have figured out how to do the final stage of downloading a human brain into such a thing. At least they are madly at work on such an abomination.
I did read Deut. 28 and it was depressing to read all the curses. I understand they were warned, and made the choice to sin, so they brought it on themselves. If they wanted blessings they could have asked God to help them choose to obey.
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Post by Cindy on May 19, 2016 11:55:17 GMT -5
I'm sorry that post was so long, I honestly didn't mean for that to happen... I just couldn't find a good place to stop before I did.
For today I want to go over a few things a little bit more. First, as I said, it's important to remember what was said in Ezekiel 21:25–27 and that neither office will be fully restored until after the Lord returns and sets up the Millennial Kingdom. Remember, when Jesus was here the first time, the priesthood was so corrupt that the high priest was not chosen the way God had told them to do it; he was picked by the Romans based on how much money the priest would bribe him with. So although there was a high priest then, it was not the person who was supposed to be the high priest. And of course we know that the throne of David was not filled at that time either since they were ruled by the Romans. Yet even knowing how corrupt the priesthood was and the high priest, Jesus still gave them the respect the office they held called for. That's something we all need to learn to do!
Are there any questions about ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’?
Are there any questions about "the time of the gentiles" that we spoke about before?
Please understand that what I tried to get across in my last post was like trying to explain in one sentence all that had happened for a thousand years. So this has been just the very tip of the iceberg so to speak.
Now, we know some of what God told Daniel (He revealed much more to Him then what I've shared so far) and we know that God also revealed parts of this to many of the other prophets. We also know that Jesus spoke about this as well, but of course that wouldn't happen yet for hundreds of years, so for now we'll concentrate just on what Daniel and the other Israelites had to go on. We are very much like they were. Daniel was living in Babylon because he and the rest of the Jew's had been taken captive and their country totally destroyed. By this time, Daniel must have been in his early 80's since he'd been captured when he was around 14 years old. While Daniel and his friends may seem to have nice jobs working in the palace for the King, he was still their enemy and they must have felt it keenly and wanted very much to be back in their own country and have their own King. While Daniel didn't have to fear going hungry or being worked to death as many of his countrymen did, he did realize that every day brought the possibility of death for him as the other Babylonians who worked in the palace hated him. They were constantly trying to find ways to get rid of him, to cause the King to distrust him etc. So we need to realize that his life was not "easy".
Daniel was a man who loved the Lord, and he continued to keep God's laws, pray, and studied His Word daily. When he studied, just like us, he looked for what God was saying for him at that time. Specifically he looked to find out when, if ever, he and his people would be able to return to the land God had given them. That's when he discovered that God had told Jeremiah that they would have to stay in Babylon for 70 years and realized that their time was almost up! That must have seemed like a glorious light shinning at the end of a very long tunnel to him!
When we study God's Word, all we have to do is open up our bibles, but that wasn't the case for Daniel. He knew all that God had said and that had been written before his time - he probably memorized most of it before he was taken captive, as most Jewish boys did in that day. But,there were prophets who were alive and speaking to the people even before the Jerusalem fell, so their words were just being written down and not available right away. And of course, not everyone believed they were prophets since they didn't want to believe the city would fall or that they'd be taken captive. Some of the prophets who lived during the same times as Daniel were Jeremiah,Ezekiel, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Malachi, Ezra and Nehemiah. Often when prophets told the people things they didn't want to hear, they wouldn't be added to the holy books until long after they'd died and been proven right beyond all doubt. So the only people who paid attention to them were those who truly loved God and for them, God would make sure His Words reached them one way or another. Once Babylon conquered Israel and took the people captive, they dispersed the people all over the mid east, keeping some of them, like Daniel, in Babylon, and there were even a few very poor people left in Israel. So the various true prophets would send letters containing God's Word to the cities the Jew's were held captive in. So as you can see, it wasn't a simple thing for Daniel to discover what God had said about his time or what would happen afterward. Especially considering his great age when God gave him the prophecy I shared with you yesterday. It's amazing that anyone in that time would live to be that age and not only live that long, but be mentally and physically healthy.
What's amazing to me is that God revealed his Master Plan for both Israel and the Gentiles to Daniel! Some of it has already taken place and been fulfilled exactly as God told Daniel it would be, and some is yet to come, but because the others have already been fulfilled, we can know that the rest will be as well. It's like God showed Daniel all that would happen from his time until the Second coming! I can barely imagine what that must have been like for him. We know that he was horrified by much of it, because he tells us so, and it's easy to see why he would be.
If you look again at the small part that I shared with you yesterday, you'll see that God also tells Daniel "why" this will happen for the Jew's: ““Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”” (Daniel 9:24–27)
The "why" is very important, so it's what we'll discuss tomorrow. Please study it yourself and see what the Lord tells you about it too. And please let me know if there's anything I've said that you don't understand or want to understand better, ok? Don't be afraid to ask a question because you think I'll cover it later. Ask anyway. If I'm going to cover it later, I'll let you know, but would hate to have you not ask and find out later that you didn't understand something.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on May 19, 2016 13:16:45 GMT -5
I noticed God uses 7's as the 'clock' or time piece but I am not sure why 7?
I know God also gave 7 days to comprise a week. I have heard, somewhere ( probably wrong info) that in the Bible certain numbers have significance ( like names of people).....so that 7 I think ( I have forgotten) is the number of completion?
Is that some false numerology sort of like the 'Bible Code' stuff?
Anyway, it seems the reasons are:
1) to finish transgression, (which transgression exactly)?
2) to put an end to sin,( that must be at the very very end?)
3) to atone for wickedness,(who is going to they themselves or Jesus....Jesus right?)
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,(Jesus)
5) to seal up vision and prophecy ( is this for Daniel to seal it up or God will and why?)
6) and to anoint the most holy. (Jesus)
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Post by Cindy on May 20, 2016 12:36:38 GMT -5
I noticed God uses 7's as the 'clock' or time piece but I am not sure why 7?
I know God also gave 7 days to comprise a week. I have heard, somewhere ( probably wrong info) that in the Bible certain numbers have significance ( like names of people).....so that 7 I think ( I have forgotten) is the number of completion?
Is that some false numerology sort of like the 'Bible Code' stuff?
Anyway, it seems the reasons are:
1) to finish transgression, (which transgression exactly)?
2) to put an end to sin,( that must be at the very very end?)
3) to atone for wickedness,(who is going to they themselves or Jesus....Jesus right?)
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,(Jesus)
5) to seal up vision and prophecy ( is this for Daniel to seal it up or God will and why?)
6) and to anoint the most holy. (Jesus)
Those are great answers and great questions Barbara! We'll have to take a very close look at what's God said to see what was meant. To answer the questions we also need to remember who He is talking to and who He is talking about, and we know He's talking to Daniel, a Jew, and we're told the rest in the first part of the scripture: ““Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city..." (Daniel 9:24)
1) to finish transgression, To finish the transgression refers to rebellion against God. So to finish transgression is saying that Israel's disobedience will be brought to an end at the Second Coming, when she repents and turns to Jesus as her Savior. It was His death on the cross that made this future finishing of their transgressions (their sins) possible.
2) to put an end to sin, This is emphasizing that all of Israel's sin would be punished- that their substitute would take the punishment for them, and of course that substitute was and is the Savior, Jesus, who bore the price of sin at His death on the cross. This is saying then that Israel's sin will have been judged with finality or irreversibly. This will happen at the Second Coming.
3) to atone for wickedness, To make reconciliation for iniquity, or to atone for wickedness, is talking about the death of our Lord to pay for sin. At the time of Daniel, the Jew's sacrificed daily to be forgiven of their sins. They knew that the sacrifices didn't really cleanse them of sin, but were instead a promise that one day God would send a Savior who would somehow pay for their sins, making them clean forever. They didn't understand how it would happen, but those who were saved in the Old Testament were saved because they had faith that God would send a Savior and somehow work this miracle. So here, the prophecy is saying that this will happen and one day all Israel will be saved. We know that the Jew's hearts have been hardened for now, and they won't accept the atonement until she repents at the end of the Tribulation, at the Second Coming of Christ.
The first 3 were fulfilled in principal at the Lord's First Coming and will be fulfilled in full at the Second Coming for Israel.
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, With sin taken care of in the first three parts of this prophecy, righteousness can now be a reality for Israel. This will be applied to Israel at the Second Coming and will begin the Millennial Kingdom. This is saying then that God will establish and age of righteousness, which we call the Millennial Kingdom. This is what Ezekiel is talking about here: “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.” (Ezekiel 11:19–20)
5) to seal up vision and prophecy There will no longer be a need for visions or prophecy or revelations during this Millennial Kingdom since all prophecy will have been fulfilled. All that God promised Israel will be fully realized in the millennial kingdom. Until then, prophecies are “unsealed.”
6) and to anoint the most holy. This is talking about the dedication of either the Most Holy Place in the future millennial temple. (described in Ezekiel 41–46) or it could be speaking of when Jesus officially begins His reign and takes the throne in the Millennial Kingdom. Jesus is called “the Anointed One” (Dan. 7:25–27) and is King of kings and Lord of lords in the Millennium.
All 6 then, anticipate the establishment of Israel’s promised millennial kingdom under the authority of Jesus. They summarize God’s whole program to bring the nation Israel the blessings He promised through His covenants (Gen. 15:18–21; 2 Sam. 7:16; Jer. 31:31–34).
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Post by evafromgreece on May 20, 2016 15:45:30 GMT -5
I dont have much to write at the moment, because I read again both posts in order to have a full picture.
One small thing. Cindy said that they didnt have any books back then. They did not because they were in captivity, or they just didnt have yet?
Wow! I didnt know that!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 20, 2016 16:56:49 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy for clearing all those up!
What a lot of hard work and effort you put in, I am so grateful!
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Post by Cindy on May 21, 2016 10:36:50 GMT -5
I dont have much to write at the moment, because I read again both posts in order to have a full picture. One small thing. Cindy said that they didnt have any books back then. They did not because they were in captivity, or they just didnt have yet? Wow! I didnt know that!
Here's another scripture that talks about Daniel and Isaiah's prophecies:
“I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.” (Romans 11:25–26)
“This is the plan determined for the whole world; this is the hand stretched out over all nations. For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?” (Isaiah 14:26–27)
I'm not going to write anymore until Monday, so you have the weekend to look this over and see if you have any more questions. Thank you Cindy for clearing all those up!
What a lot of hard work and effort you put in, I am so grateful!
Here's another scripture that talks about Daniel and Isaiah's prophecies:
“I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.” (Romans 11:25–26)
“This is the plan determined for the whole world; this is the hand stretched out over all nations. For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?” (Isaiah 14:26–27)
I'm not going to write anymore until Monday, so you have the weekend to look this over and see if you have any more questions.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 21, 2016 18:49:42 GMT -5
Well I have read Revelation and other end time scripture passages ( old and new testament), and read lots of Christian fiction on it....but there is never a end, and already you have explained a lot of new things or shown them in a different or expanded light.
I had to go watch Devon at 3:30 in the morning last night ( first time in a looong time, and I never do well the next day).
So I was sort of glad we are having a few days break.
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Post by Cindy on May 23, 2016 10:15:06 GMT -5
I added this to my post from May 18th, so it would all be in the right order if someone else reads this thread. So I'm going to delete it from this one.
I'm not going to add anymore until I've heard from Eva. I just didn't want to forget this part as it's another very important part of the story that I should have explained before telling you about Daniel.
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Post by evafromgreece on May 23, 2016 15:09:40 GMT -5
Hey guys :)
I dont have something new to add about the previous part.
I have a question on this, its something that fits also the topic we are discussing in general.
What would have happened to the gentiles if the Jewish nation had done all they have agreed with the Lord there? If they had fully obey Him? Would still be there a plan for the Gentiles to get saved? If their job was to tell the world about Him, and to be a nation of priests, their role was to help the gentiles get saved?
Am I thinking correctly?
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Post by Cindy on May 24, 2016 11:39:49 GMT -5
Hey guys :) I dont have something new to add about the previous part. I have a question on this, its something that fits also the topic we are discussing in general. What would have happened to the gentiles if the Jewish nation had done all they have agreed with the Lord there? If they had fully obey Him? Would still be there a plan for the Gentiles to get saved? If their job was to tell the world about Him, and to be a nation of priests, their role was to help the gentiles get saved? Am I thinking correctly?
If Israel had done their job, many Gentiles would have been saved, and Jesus still would have had to die, but after his resurrection He would have begun the Millennial Kingdom. yes, their job was to help the gentiles know the Lord and be saved. Sadly they didn't do this.
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Post by Cindy on May 25, 2016 11:31:25 GMT -5
Waiting to make sure Barbara has read all of it and that everyone understands everything so far.....
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Post by evafromgreece on May 25, 2016 15:22:03 GMT -5
Hey guys :) I dont have something new to add about the previous part. I have a question on this, its something that fits also the topic we are discussing in general. What would have happened to the gentiles if the Jewish nation had done all they have agreed with the Lord there? If they had fully obey Him? Would still be there a plan for the Gentiles to get saved? If their job was to tell the world about Him, and to be a nation of priests, their role was to help the gentiles get saved? Am I thinking correctly?
If Israel had done their job, many Gentiles would have been saved, and Jesus still would have had to die, but after his resurrection He would have begun the Millennial Kingdom. yes, their job was to help the gentiles know the Lord and be saved. Sadly they didn't do this.
Yes I think I am ok. But, in this thread when something new is posted I try to read again some parts of the previous posts, in order to link all these together. So I might see something as we go forward that I would like us to discuss |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 25, 2016 19:30:29 GMT -5
I sorry, I got completely lost as to what day it was arrrggghhhh
Sorry.
Yes, I understand what you have written so far.
Back to one of your earlier questions about 7 years.....I am wondering if Mark 13:20 has something to do with it
"“If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them."
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Post by Cindy on May 26, 2016 10:36:18 GMT -5
You understand everything I've written?
If Israel had done their job, many Gentiles would have been saved, and Jesus still would have had to die, but after his resurrection He would have begun the Millennial Kingdom. yes, their job was to help the gentiles know the Lord and be saved. Sadly they didn't do this.
Yes I think I am ok. But, in this thread when something new is posted I try to read again some parts of the previous posts, in order to link all these together. So I might see something as we go forward that I would like us to discuss
By the way, I hope you are also reading the replies to Barbara, and that she's reading the replies to you, because if you're not, you may miss something important.
I sorry, I got completely lost as to what day it was arrrggghhhh
Sorry.
Yes, I understand what you have written so far.
Back to one of your earlier questions about 7 years.....I am wondering if Mark 13:20 has something to do with it
"“If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them."
Remember, when you read Mark or the other gospels that speak about this, you have to look at the context and see who Jesus is talking to when He made this statement. He was talking to his disciples who were Jew's, just like He was, and who had asked Him a very Jewish question. They wanted to know when the Millennial Kingdom would start. For more context, so we can answer this question, let's see what Jesus said just before the verse you quoted: ““When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.” (Mark 13:14–19) He spoke about the abomination of desolation, which we know will happen right in the middle of the tribulation, when the Antichrist breaks the treaty he confirmed with Israel before. It is at this point that the Jew's will be martyred, and this will continue for the rest of the tribulation. This last half of the Tribulation is often called "The great Tribulation" because as bad as the first half will be, the second half will be so much worse. Now look at the verse in question: “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.” (Mark 13:20) Most commentaries say that the elect is Israel and all who have been saved at that time, although there are a few that limit it to Israel since that's what Jesus was talking about at the time. Jesus says though that if God doesn't cut short the time, no one would survive it. To me, that means the elect He's speaking of must be Israel in this particular verse. The reason I say that is because although Christians will also be martyred during this time, they will not be hunted down and tortured and killed the way the Jew's will be. The AntiChrist will do to the Jew's what Hitler tried to do during the Holocaust, because Satan hates the Jews above all people groups. So what he will do to the Jew's during these 3 and a half years that are left, will make the Holocaust look like a Sunday picnic. If God doesn't intervene, there would be no Jew's left alive. One way that God will intervene is by making the safe place for them in the desert. The other way He will intervene is by cutting the time short. One way of "cutting short those days" would be that He could mean that the Lord shortened the time that the AC would be allowed to kill them to the last half of the Tribulation instead of allowing him to do that for the full 7 years. It could also mean that if the Lord had allowed the Tribulation to last any longer then what He has planned, no one would survive.
The Lord is always in complete control, and He will be during the Tribulation as well. Right now, He limits how much Satan is allowed to do to us, and although Satan will be allowed to do much, much more during the Tribulation, the Lord will not allow him to kill everyone. There will be a remnant left to populate the Millennial Kingdom.
“In that day the remnant of Israel, the survivors of the house of Jacob, will no longer rely on him who struck them down but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overwhelming and righteous. The Lord, the LORD Almighty, will carry out the destruction decreed upon the whole land.” (Isaiah 10:20–23)
“In the whole land,” declares the LORD, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ ”” (Zechariah 13:8–9)
“And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.” (Romans 11:26)
The above scriptures are scary because they show us that only one third of all the Jew's left alive on the earth when the Tribulation starts, will be saved. Only one third of them! The other two thirds will die unsaved. And we're told that the third who will be saved, will first go through great trials during the Tribulation. By the end of the Tribulation though, this one third will know Jesus as their Savior.
“In those days, at that time,” declares the LORD, “search will be made for Israel’s guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare.” (Jeremiah 50:20)
“I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before. I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me.” (Jeremiah 33:7–8)
““Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Ephraim’s stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.’ Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand. “When your countrymen ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.” (Ezekiel 37:16–22)
The Lord let's us know that at the point when that remnant is saved, they will be completely forgiven, and Israel will no longer be divided into two houses (Judah and Israel) but will be whole once more.
Have you noticed that so far there has been hardly any talk of Gentiles? So far, everything has been about Israel. Why do you think that is?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 26, 2016 17:04:24 GMT -5
You asked Eva and I a question in our accountability thread asking:
"Eva, and Barbara too... do you understand why God has planned for a 7 year tribulation?"
I guess the part of that question that I've been trying to figure out, was why 7 years, and not 5 or 10, or 8. or 20?
You did say, there is no 'magic' or whatever about a 'number'. I was thinking how names in the old testament sometimes either reflected the character or hoped for character of the person, but nothing like that holds for numbers.
But still curious why 7 years, I then thought, perhaps because if it were longer, no people would still be alive and maybe if shorter, people would not cry out to God to be saved.
However, I don't think you intended for us to actually think about why seven years, but more about why the tribulation, that will just happen to be 7 years.....right?
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Post by Cindy on May 31, 2016 9:57:20 GMT -5
You asked Eva and I a question in our accountability thread asking:
"Eva, and Barbara too... do you understand why God has planned for a 7 year tribulation?"
I guess the part of that question that I've been trying to figure out, was why 7 years, and not 5 or 10, or 8. or 20?
You did say, there is no 'magic' or whatever about a 'number'. I was thinking how names in the old testament sometimes either reflected the character or hoped for character of the person, but nothing like that holds for numbers.
But still curious why 7 years, I then thought, perhaps because if it were longer, no people would still be alive and maybe if shorter, people would not cry out to God to be saved.
However, I don't think you intended for us to actually think about why seven years, but more about why the tribulation, that will just happen to be 7 years.....right?
 I'm still not feeling very well, which means my brain isn't working as well as it could be, so I can't really answer your question the way you want me to. What I recall is that it has to do with the way the Lord set everything up in the beginning with Israel. Many commentaries say that the number Seven stands for—completion Ex. 20:10, fulfillment Josh. 6:4 and perfection Rev. 1:4. However I believe that the Bible tells us why it's 7 years. Look at what God tells the Israelites in Leviticus 26. He tells them what will happen to them if they disobey Him. Now this is not a list of curses like the passage we saw in Deuteronomy, although it does include some of that. This is different. I don't want to quote it all here, so you'll need to read it to understand. Read Leviticus 26:14-46. I will quote one passage though as it's repeated 4 times: ““ ‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.” (Leviticus 26:18) Toward the end, starting at Leviticus 26:40 God tells them that after all this, if they confess their sins, that He will remember His covenant with them, etc. and will keep His promise. The covenant is the one we spoke of giving them the land forever, this will happen in the Millennial Kingdom with Jesus ruling over them.
So, that should give you plenty to work on for today. Hopefully Eva will see this too so she can read it as well.
You do realize don't you why there will be a tribulation? We studied that and found the answer in the passage in Daniel which told us what the tribulation would accomplish. Remember?
Sorry I haven't been well. I feel badly not being able to keep this up for you, but I just can't do it right now. I did have some that I wanted to share today, but it's going to have to wait. But to remind myself, I want to next take a look at what the Gentiles have been up to during all the years that we normally focus on Israel in the OT.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on May 31, 2016 11:46:58 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy! I do pray you will get to feeling better!!
Do worry about not being able to post right now, when you are feeling better, will be fine!
I 'think' the tribulation, is primarily for the Jews. We Gentiles had been grafted in and once we have been raptured, God will go back and deal with the Jewish people, 1/3 of which will trust in Jesus as their Messiah and be saved during the Tribulation.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 1, 2016 10:47:35 GMT -5
that's true, but the reason for the tribulation is what we saw in the scriptures from Daniel, remember? I hope what I shared about the number 7 helped too.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 1, 2016 12:21:31 GMT -5
Usually, when we read the OT, we generally focus on what is happening with Israel, but there's a lot in the OT about the Gentiles as well. God did not leave us out. Let's start at the beginning and see what the Gentiles are up to during all this time.
After Adam and Eve sinned, if you recall, God told Satan:“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”” (Genesis 3:15) This is a prophecy that Christ will defeat Satan (crush his head). So from the very start after they sinned, God had a plan to rescue humanity. The next thing we see in the bible is that Adam and Eve had children, Cain and Abel. Abel was godly, and followed the ways of God, Cain wasn't and wound up killing Abel. God tells Cain he must leave God's presence and live elsewhere. Then we're told: “So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.” (Genesis 4:16) Cain begins the first settlement and world system separate from the Lord. Adam and Eve continued where they were and continued to try and please the Lord and follow His ways, but Cain left, as he was told to, but he disobeyed the Lord and settled down and by Genesis 4:17 we see that he built a city. (the Lord had told him he was to continue to wander and not settle down - Genesis 4:12) Up to verse 24, we read about more people born who lived in that city and how ungodly it was. They began the idea of having more then one wife and even more murder was done by then.
Next we hear that Adam and Eve had another son they named Seth. Now, if you look at the names of the people God mentions living in Cain's city, and the names of those born after Seth who was also godly, you'll see something that Satan does all the time - he mimics God. And so the names of the ungodly people are similar to the names of those born to godly Seth's line in chapter 5. Toward the end of that chapter, we're introduced to Noah, and at the beginning of chapter 6 we're told how very evil the people had become. They were so evil, that even Seth's line had been corrupted, all except for Noah and his family. Next comes the flood which destroys everyone and everything on the earth except for Noah's family and the animals on the Ark. In chapter 9, when the flood is over, God gives Noah a blessing and a command: “Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.” (Genesis 9:1)
Next were told of Noah's sons: “The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.” (Genesis 9:18–19) Then we learn that Ham sinned against God and his father, Noah, but the other two sons did not. When Noah discovered what he did, he cursed Ham's son which suggests that his son also sinned with his father: “he said, “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.” He also said, “Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave.”” (Genesis 9:25–27)
The scriptures I've mentioned are all quite important. Let me explain a bit more: The fact that Noah curses Canaan, Ham’s youngest son, suggests that the boy was involved in the sin along with his father and that God would punish the sins of both the father and the son. Canaan and his descendants are the fathers of the nations named in Genesis 10:15–20 and were to be the lowest of servants to their brothers. It is easy to see that they were ultimately made slaves by both the Jews and Gentiles. The Shemites (Semites) were the Jews. Their tribes are listed in Genesis 10:21–32, and Genesis 11:10–26 traces that line to Abraham. The descendants of Japheth are the Gentiles and their tribes are listed in Genesis 10:1–5. I like how one of my commentaries explains chapter 10: Genesis 10 is a key to the rest of the biblical account. It is like the cast of characters given in the preface of a play so that the audience will understand who the players are, how they stand in relation to each other, and which ones have the main roles. Word in life study Bible. You may have heard Chapter 10 called "The Table of Nations" for this is where we began to have Nations on the earth. As I'm not feeling all that well, rather than trying to explain all this myself, I'm going to use some information from the commentaries to make it easier on me.
“The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras.” (Genesis 10:2)
From Japheth came the European races. Japheth, Noah’s youngest son, and his descendants (10:2–5) were largely responsible for the founding of much of what is now Eastern Europe. Some of the settlements included Ukraine (Gomer), Turkey (Magog, Tubal, Meshech), Greece (Javan), southern Russia (Ashkenaz), Cyprus (Elishah), and the Greek Isles (Kittim). Opening up Genesis.
“Gomer” This seems to refer to the Cimmerians, who are mentioned in Homer’s Iliad, chapter 11:13–19. They inhabited northern Asia Minor. They possibly migrated north and become European tribal groups. This can be seen through a similar term for them in north Germany, “Cimbi” and in Wales, “Cymri.”
“Magog” There has been much discussion about this name because of its connection to Ezek. 38–39 and end-time events. However, it must be asserted that Magog, along with Meshech and Tubal, also mentioned in v. 2, are primarily tribes connected with Asia Minor and the coast of the Black Sea. It is quite possible that they migrated north and become the tribal groups of modern Russia. But, in ancient times, they were much closer to the Promised Land. Most assert that Magog is connected with the Scythians, southeast of the Black Sea. This information comes from Josephus.
“Madai” Most assert that this refers to the Medes, who lived south and southwest of the Caspian Sea, who become so important to Israel in their joining with Persia to overthrow the NeoBabylon Empire (Nebuchadnezzar).
“Javan” This seems to refer to the Ionian (southern) Greeks (cf. Dan. 8:21; 10:20; 11:2). This group is spelled “Javana” in Sanskrit; “Juna” in old Persian and “Jounan” on the Rosetta stone. They later became, not only the kingdom of Greece, but possibly a part of the sea peoples in the Aegean area (i.e. Phoenicians and Philistines).
“Tubal” Many assert that this refers to the Tiberenians of central Asia Minor. Both Tubal and Meshech occur in Ezek 38–39 as residing in Asia Minor.
“Meshech” Many assert that this is a tribal group who lived south and southwest of the Black Sea (cf. Ezek. 27:13; 32:26; 38:2; 39:1). This information comes from Herodotus.
“Tiras” There have been several possible identifications for this group, as is so common among commentators. Many of these names and locales are simply uncertain. The possibilities include (1) the Etruscans; (2) an Aegean pirate nation called Pelasgians; (3) Josephus says the Thracians; or (4) Rashi says that it refers to Persia. How it All Began:
Tiras was the ancestor of the Thracians of northern Greece, or perhaps the Etruscans of Italy. KJV Bible Commentary.
“The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah.” (Genesis 10:3)
“Ashkenaz” This is the name adopted by later Jews of Europe (i.e. Germany). The current theories are (1) Scythians in the area of Germany; (2) people close to Lake Urumia; or (3) a tribal group of Bithynia in Asia Minor.
“Riphath” This has been alleged to be a tribal group near the river Rhebas or a tribal group near the Bosphorus.
“Togarmah” These are (1) a tribal group in the area of Cappadocia in Asia Minor; (2) near the ancient city of Carchemish; or (3) a tribal group in Phrygia. All three of these possibilities are in modern Turkey.
“The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittim and the Rodanim.” (Genesis 10:4)
“Elishah” Most assert that this refers to the native population of Cypress. They are mentioned in Ezek. 27:7.
“Tarshish” Although Albright located this at Sardinia, most modern researchers locate it in southern Spain (i.e. Tartessos). It is mentioned in 2 Chr. 9:21; Ps. 48:7; 72:10; Jonah 1:3; 4:2).
“Kittim” There is a consistent opinion that this refers to the settlers on the east coast of Cypress.
“Dodanim” Many assert that the similarity between the Hebrew letters, D (ד) and R (ו), has been confused and that this refers to the tribal inhabitants of the Island of Rhodes (cf. NIV translation). However, others assert that it is northern Greece and still others say it is southern Italy. It is obvious that this is simply unknown.
“(From these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language.)” (Genesis 10:5)
“From these coastlands of the nations” or "the maritime peoples" This phrase is used to symbolize far away peoples, but here it seems to refer to the inhabitants along the coast of the Mediterranean and Black Seas which follows the migration of the children of Japheth. How it All Began
The Hamites
“The sons of Ham: Cush, Mizraim, Put and Canaan. The sons of Cush: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah and Sabteca. The sons of Raamah: Sheba and Dedan.” (Genesis 10:6–7)
These sons of Ham are discussed further in the following verses: Cush in vv. 7–12; Mizraim in vv. 13–14; and Canaan in vv. 15–19. Put, although not discussed, seems to refer either to East Africa (Somalia), southern Arabia, Libya or Cyrene. It is obvious from this many possible locations that we are uncertain.
“Canaan was the father of Sidon his firstborn, and of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girgashites, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites and Hamathites. Later the Canaanite clans scattered and the borders of Canaan reached from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.” (Genesis 10:15–19)
“Sidon” This is the famous Phoenician seaport and originally its capital, north of Palestine
“Heth” This seems to be a non-Semitic name. It is possibly the beginning of the Hittite group. In the Bible they are located in two places: (1) around the city of Hebron and (2) north of Palestine in central Turkey. They dominated this entire region between 1800–1200 B.C The tribal group called Hivites may also be connected to the term Heth.
“the Jebusite” These were the occupants of the city of Salem or Jebus, later Jerusalem
“Amorite” The term Amorite can be a collective term (cf. Gen. 15:16) like the term Canaanite. We think it had the connotation of “high-lander” (the literal name meant “westerner”) while Canaanite had the connotation of “low-lander” (the literal name meant “land of purple”). In the Bible the inhabitants of Canaan are listed in several places: (1) by two tribal groups in Gen. 13:7, 34:30; Judg. 1:4, 5; (2) by seven nations in Deut. 7:1; Josh. 3:10; 24:11; (3) by ten nations in Gen. 15:19–20; and (4) the most common usage is a sixth nation designation that is used the majority of times in the Pentateuch.
“Girgashite” This was a Canaanite tribe often named in the various lists of the tribes of Canaan (Gen. 10:16; 15:21; Deut. 7:11; Josh. 3:10; 24:11; Neh. 9:8; 1 Chr. 1:14), but no locality is ever identified.
“the Hivite” They seem to be the inhabitants of central Palestine. Some identify them with Hurrians. Numbers 13:29 is a good geographical summary of the division of these tribes in Palestine.
“Arkite” This seems to be the inhabitants of a coastal city and island north of Sidon
“Sinite” This seems to be the inhabitants of a city close to Arke
“Arvadite” This seems to refer to the inhabitants of an island off the coast north of Palestine. Like the two previous ones it is north of Tripolis.
“Hamathite” This refers to the inhabitants of a city on the Orontes River
“Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim” These are cities of the plains that God later destroys. They are located in the southern end of the Dead Sea.
“Lasha” Jerome says that this was east of the Dead Sea How it All Began
The Semites
“Sons were also born to Shem, whose older brother was Japheth; Shem was the ancestor of all the sons of Eber.” (Genesis 10:21)
“Shem” This is the Hebrew term “name”. His importance is seen because he is mentioned both here and in 11:10–26. The rebellious people of chapters 10–11 want to build a “name” for themselves. His name links up with Genesis 4:26 (i.e. YHWH’s name glorified). He will represent the chosen line of blessing (cf. 12:2).
OK, I'm going to stop here for today. But it's important that we know where the Gentiles and Jews came from. Please read all of Genesis 10 so you can get the full picture, and we'll talk more about it all tomorrow. Oh, the reason I put some names in red is because I would expect that you probably recognize those names or if not, then I wanted to draw your attention to them.
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Post by Cindy on Jun 1, 2016 12:43:27 GMT -5
These graphics may help too... I hope they are large enough for you to see...
   They should show up in my bible study folder of graphics soon so if you click on this link you can find them and see them much larger: (they will probably be the last 3 graphics on the page.)picasaweb.google.com/115951139222034695957/6142835522168861041
notice on the top right there's a little slider, and if you slide it all the way to the right the graphics will get much larger. 
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jun 1, 2016 17:11:38 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy!!
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I'm still not feeling very well, which means my brain isn't working as well as it could be, so I can't really answer your question the way you want me to. What I recall is that it has to do with the way the Lord set everything up in the beginning with Israel. Many commentaries say that the number Seven stands for—completion Ex. 20:10, fulfillment Josh. 6:4 and perfection Rev. 1:4. However I believe that the Bible tells us why it's 7 years. Look at what God tells the Israelites in Leviticus 26. He tells them what will happen to them if they disobey Him. Now this is not a list of curses like the passage we saw in Deuteronomy, although it does include some of that. This is different. I don't want to quote it all here, so you'll need to read it to understand. Read Leviticus 26:14-46. I will quote one passage though as it's repeated 4 times: ““ ‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.” (Leviticus 26:18) Toward the end, starting at Leviticus 26:40 God tells them that after all this, if they confess their sins, that He will remember His covenant with them, etc. and will keep His promise. The covenant is the one we spoke of giving them the land forever, this will happen in the Millennial Kingdom with Jesus ruling over them. 
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