fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383 
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Post by fearnot on May 4, 2015 12:14:01 GMT -5
Chapter 13 starts with how we should relate to governing authority.
I have to admit, I am not exactly thrilled with what God said....at least not at first....because I am so unhappy with our 'so-called' president.
So what does God say?
Romans 13:1
"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established."
So when I read the 1st half of that sentence, my first gut response is.....NOOOOOOO!
But then....
Opps it goes on to say (in the 2nd half of the sentance), that God has established it! Well that
certainly changes things!
And Lo and behold to make sure we got it, verse #2 repeats it!! When God says something twice we are clued to pay attention that it is an important concept, doctrine etc.
But
there is even more!!!
Romans verse #3
"Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves"
.
Now we get to the word(s) rebels and rebelling.
Those words in many peoples minds have gone thru a change not unlike where Scripture tells us in
Isaiah 5:20
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
So where as rebelious people were sinners many see them as courageous heros, or cool wild and FREE spirits!
But that is NOT what God says! We Christians must remember that God Himself is the absolute authority!
So to resist our governing authority ( there is an exception which I will get to soon-ish) is to rebel ( and that IS bad) against what God has instituted and will bring judgement on ourselves! I know someone will ask but what if the people in authority are corrupt? I will get to that shortly
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 4, 2015 12:19:26 GMT -5
LOL I actually wondered if maybe you were working on the board and maybe that is how it got lost...or the quote thing I didn't know ...
oh well I tried to remember as much as I could and in the same order but it didn't come out as good as the first.
Sometimes I post and I feel its so-so.
But once in a while (prob because I remember to pray first ahem!),
then I think.....
yes that is not half bad ( and if so..... may God get the glory)!!
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Post by evafromgreece on May 5, 2015 14:18:24 GMT -5
Very good explanation Eva! You did leave out a couple of important points which I'll ask about in a minute. I'd like you to answer the same questions I asked Barbara about the first part: Why did God insist on animals having to die? You said it foreshadowed what Jesus did, but why didn't God chose some other way of canceling out sin? I'd say I didn't understand why something or someone had to die.... I believe because the consequence of sin is death, so in order for not the person who sinned to die, someone else should pay the prize. Paul is especially talking about other members of the Church but is also including non believers. You did a good job of explaining what it means to offer our bodies as living sacrifices! The first point you left out was “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” (Romans 12:2) If I didn't understand this chapter, I would want to know how we are transformed or changed. The Holy Spirit transforms our lives, if we do let It do soYou also left out: “For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.” (Romans 12:3) "When God gives us that faith, is that all we'll ever have? So if someone starts out with only a little faith, will they always only have a little faith?" I believe the answer is on the above. Holy Spirit will increase our little faith as we are transformedThe Next point you left out was in the next part, about all of us being part of the body of Christ, and the next point you left out was about spiritual gifts. So I would like you to explain both of those to me. Each one of us are a member of the same body, the church. And we have to do different works in order to give glory to God, and we should use our gifts in order to fulfill our purposeI asked Barbara these questions about this section: "how do I know what my gift is? Are you sure everyone has a gift? Do we only get one and is it always the same thing or can it change? If we don't know what are gift is, how can we cultivate it? I don't think I have one as I can't do anything very special...?" (I hear that last line from lots of people!) I am not sure about this My other question would be about honoring others before ourselves...I'd want to know what that means...or more accurately, what it would look like. Lets say you sing in a church choir. You are gifted, you sing so nice... All around you see you are blessed. One day you start compare yourself with the others and boast about how better you are. That is how it looks likeI'd also want to know just how far God expects us to go when He says to bless our enemies and those who are mean to us. Can't we just ignore them? I'd be thinking there was no way I could be nice to people that I hated and now you say that I'm not even allowed to hate them anymore, but before you said that God said to hate evil...these people did evil, so shouldn't I hate them...I don't understand... How can God ask these things of us? No one could do this!" That's how many people respond to this because they think it means that the bad person is going to get away with what they did and they don't like that idea. I don't understand the question But you did a great job explaining it so far! Read more: fresh-hope.com/thread/16/ti-bible-study-chat-romans?page=2&scrollTo=458#ixzz3ZI6mKHC8 |
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Post by Cindy on May 6, 2015 12:11:19 GMT -5
Chapter 13 starts with how we should relate to governing authority.
I have to admit, I am not exactly thrilled with what God said....at least not at first....because I am so unhappy with our 'so-called' president.
So what does God say?
Romans 13:1
"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established."
So when I read the 1st half of that sentence, my first gut response is.....NOOOOOOO!
But then....
Opps it goes on to say (in the 2nd half of the sentance), that God has established it! Well that
certainly changes things!
And Lo and behold to make sure we got it, verse #2 repeats it!! When God says something twice we are clued to pay attention that it is an important concept, doctrine etc.
But
there is even more!!!
Romans verse #3
"Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves"
.
Now we get to the word(s) rebels and rebelling.
Those words in many peoples minds have gone thru a change not unlike where Scripture tells us in
Isaiah 5:20
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
So where as rebelious people were sinners many see them as courageous heros, or cool wild and FREE spirits!
But that is NOT what God says! We Christians must remember that God Himself is the absolute authority!
So to resist our governing authority ( there is an exception which I will get to soon-ish) is to rebel ( and that IS bad) against what God has instituted and will bring judgement on ourselves! I know someone will ask but what if the people in authority are corrupt? I will get to that shortly
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 6, 2015 12:16:42 GMT -5
Cindy I sent or answered a few more e-mails. I am winding down now and unless my son brings up some new thing that I know I will need helpful advice before e-mailing back, I prob won't be taking up more of your time.
I have had a less than perfect few weeks, but then I would guess that might be true for you and Eva and many others.
I am sooooooo thankful you did take the time. I am certain you saved a lot of hurt feelings and maybe worse!
Plus e-mailing you first stopped me from a life time of spouting off in writing based on intense emotions without thinking it thru! I had to wait for your response and then was convicted by what you had to say and even then I made one mistake at least but it was no doubt sooooo much better than it might have been. PHEW!!!
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Post by Cindy on May 6, 2015 12:31:45 GMT -5
Very good explanation Eva! You did leave out a couple of important points which I'll ask about in a minute. I'd like you to answer the same questions I asked Barbara about the first part: Why did God insist on animals having to die? You said it foreshadowed what Jesus did, but why didn't God chose some other way of canceling out sin? I'd say I didn't understand why something or someone had to die.... I believe because the consequence of sin is death, so in order for not the person who sinned to die, someone else should pay the prize. Paul is especially talking about other members of the Church but is also including non believers. You did a good job of explaining what it means to offer our bodies as living sacrifices! The first point you left out was “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” (Romans 12:2) If I didn't understand this chapter, I would want to know how we are transformed or changed. The Holy Spirit transforms our lives, if we do let It do soYou also left out: “For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.” (Romans 12:3) "When God gives us that faith, is that all we'll ever have? So if someone starts out with only a little faith, will they always only have a little faith?" I believe the answer is on the above. Holy Spirit will increase our little faith as we are transformedThe Next point you left out was in the next part, about all of us being part of the body of Christ, and the next point you left out was about spiritual gifts. So I would like you to explain both of those to me. Each one of us are a member of the same body, the church. And we have to do different works in order to give glory to God, and we should use our gifts in order to fulfill our purposeI asked Barbara these questions about this section: "how do I know what my gift is? Are you sure everyone has a gift? Do we only get one and is it always the same thing or can it change? If we don't know what are gift is, how can we cultivate it? I don't think I have one as I can't do anything very special...?" (I hear that last line from lots of people!) I am not sure about this My other question would be about honoring others before ourselves...I'd want to know what that means...or more accurately, what it would look like. Lets say you sing in a church choir. You are gifted, you sing so nice... All around you see you are blessed. One day you start compare yourself with the others and boast about how better you are. That is how it looks likeI'd also want to know just how far God expects us to go when He says to bless our enemies and those who are mean to us. Can't we just ignore them? I'd be thinking there was no way I could be nice to people that I hated and now you say that I'm not even allowed to hate them anymore, but before you said that God said to hate evil...these people did evil, so shouldn't I hate them...I don't understand... How can God ask these things of us? No one could do this!" That's how many people respond to this because they think it means that the bad person is going to get away with what they did and they don't like that idea. I don't understand the question But you did a great job explaining it so far! Read more: fresh-hope.com/thread/16/ti-bible-study-chat-romans?page=2&scrollTo=458#ixzz3ZI6mKHC8
Next, you said that the Holy Spirit transforms us, but you did not say how. Is it all like magic and just happens without us knowing?
On the question about faith, you are right, our faith grows as we study His Word and spend time with Him. You're also right about us all being part of the body of Christ, the church and everyone having a gift. You said you weren't sure if everyone has a gift or not. Read what Paul said again as he tells us we all have a gift. God doesn't play favorites. He gives everyone a gift, although not everyone uses their gift, and some use it in ways they shouldn't.
I think you got my question about honoring others backward hon lol. I wanted to know what it would look like to honor others more then yourself. What you described was how to think you are better then others, which is the opposite of what God tells us to do.
About my last question about evil people and how we are to treat them: For example, let's say that some guy sees you and for no reason grabs you and beats you up so bad that others have to take you to the hospital. If I was unsaved and did not understand God's Ways, I would think you were crazy if you forgave the man that beat you up and especially if you went out of your way later to help him somehow. I would want to know why your God would ask you to be kind to such an evil person and why He would ask you to forgive them.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 6, 2015 12:56:45 GMT -5
I am so sorry that I broke this study up ....but as you know I got a shocking e-mail from my son, and I've been fighting with my new c-pap (I will put my problem with it in the pain board), issues with my granddaughter etc etc.
That I just could only pray and not give this 100 percent. I didn't want to be writing on Romans ch 13 with only 1/2 concentrating on it while fretting over a half a dozen other things.
You have sooooo helped me that I think I have calmed down enough to get back to our study of God's word.
I am not exactly on track even now because I don't remember where I intended put the 'exception' so I will just address it now; The ONLY time we can, and actually it's stronger than that, we must disobey ANY of our authorities is if the law or the person demands we go against God's law. Even if we have death as the consequence, we must always obey God first!
But of course, we have to be very very certain that it IS God's law, or will.
Anarchy says we can disobey whenever we feel like it for whatever reason we deem worthy! We Christians KNOW that is not right!
However a gung ho patriot says we must obey our country no matter what!!! Ummmmm no that is not right either!!
However there may be some seemly very good reasons to disobey ( the leader is evil and corrupt, it's violating our 'rights', etc.) but actually those are not reasons to disobey either. We can try to get the laws changed but the first and foremost and biblical response is to pray!
Something that is becoming close to the boiling point is 'police brutality' in our country. Are there corrupt brutal police...yes. But that being said, the tide has swung so that the police just trying to do their jobs is automatically suspect in many peoples minds. This is wrong according to God's word.
Romans 13:4-5
" 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities..."
I was listening to a black man talking about the lastest killing by 6 policemen ( It's not clear to me that they actually killed the man but maybe there was neglect while he was in the police van?) but in any case, this man was saying the man who died was 40 some years old and he was 'running away??" from the police. This was a black man saying: "come on you are 40 plus years and you are still running like a teen who knows he did wrong?"
It struck me that he had a point. While almost everyone else wanted to rush to judgement about these police ( who may have done wrong, but then again, they may not have 'killed' this man).
And if we look at it in the light of scripture we need to be very careful of our attitude about police. They not only risk their lives daily ( most of them) they are still and nevertheless God's servants.
And in this case I fail to see 'racism' since 3 of the police were black, and the highest officer was a black woman!!
Scripture goes on to say they are God's agents of wrath to bring punishment on wrong doers. I frankly am amazed at how compassionate many of them remain when they see so much sorrow and evil all day long day in and day out!
Perhaps I am slightly in favor of police because my uncle ( well I was adopted but to me he was just my uncle) what the head of RI state police. He was a man that refused to take bribes from RI mafia etc. He could be stern but also kind, funny and fair. When his own son fell alseep at the wheel of a car he did not give Brouse an 'special' treatment!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 6, 2015 14:06:05 GMT -5
The next issue in obedience is paying taxes....nobody's favorite topic, but scripture is short and to the point....yes we must pay our taxes!
Additionally we are to pay our financial debts.
Which brings us to a happier subject:love
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Post by evafromgreece on May 6, 2015 16:10:21 GMT -5
I start chapter 13
As we know God is the one who allows anything to happen or not to happen. So, we are to respect the ones that are in control, because God put them there for His own reasons weather we like it or not. So when we go against them we go against the will of God. If we do good works and respect the law of our country there is nothing to be afraid of. But if you do works agaisst the law you should be afraid. We should respect the law of our country, pay our taxes, and honour the ones who are in control everywhere.
And we should love and respect everyone, thats the way to truly follow the law. If we choose to love others we wont fail to treat them badly and not follow our obligations over them.
The end of this corrupted world is near, and we should deny this worlds works and way of view and way of life. We should work for our spirit and not to live according of the will of the flesh
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Post by Cindy on May 7, 2015 13:54:17 GMT -5
I am so sorry that I broke this study up ....but as you know I got a shocking e-mail from my son, and I've been fighting with my new c-pap (I will put my problem with it in the pain board), issues with my granddaughter etc etc.
That I just could only pray and not give this 100 percent. I didn't want to be writing on Romans ch 13 with only 1/2 concentrating on it while fretting over a half a dozen other things.
You have sooooo helped me that I think I have calmed down enough to get back to our study of God's word.
I am not exactly on track even now because I don't remember where I intended put the 'exception' so I will just address it now; The ONLY time we can, and actually it's stronger than that, we must disobey ANY of our authorities is if the law or the person demands we go against God's law. Even if we have death as the consequence, we must always obey God first!
But of course, we have to be very very certain that it IS God's law, or will.
Anarchy says we can disobey whenever we feel like it for whatever reason we deem worthy! We Christians KNOW that is not right!
However a gung ho patriot says we must obey our country no matter what!!! Ummmmm no that is not right either!!
However there may be some seemly very good reasons to disobey ( the leader is evil and corrupt, it's violating our 'rights', etc.) but actually those are not reasons to disobey either. We can try to get the laws changed but the first and foremost and biblical response is to pray!
Something that is becoming close to the boiling point is 'police brutality' in our country. Are there corrupt brutal police...yes. But that being said, the tide has swung so that the police just trying to do their jobs is automatically suspect in many peoples minds. This is wrong according to God's word.
Romans 13:4-5
" 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities..."
I was listening to a black man talking about the lastest killing by 6 policemen ( It's not clear to me that they actually killed the man but maybe there was neglect while he was in the police van?) but in any case, this man was saying the man who died was 40 some years old and he was 'running away??" from the police. This was a black man saying: "come on you are 40 plus years and you are still running like a teen who knows he did wrong?"
It struck me that he had a point. While almost everyone else wanted to rush to judgement about these police ( who may have done wrong, but then again, they may not have 'killed' this man).
And if we look at it in the light of scripture we need to be very careful of our attitude about police. They not only risk their lives daily ( most of them) they are still and nevertheless God's servants.
And in this case I fail to see 'racism' since 3 of the police were black, and the highest officer was a black woman!!
Scripture goes on to say they are God's agents of wrath to bring punishment on wrong doers. I frankly am amazed at how compassionate many of them remain when they see so much sorrow and evil all day long day in and day out!
Perhaps I am slightly in favor of police because my uncle ( well I was adopted but to me he was just my uncle) what the head of RI state police. He was a man that refused to take bribes from RI mafia etc. He could be stern but also kind, funny and fair. When his own son fell alseep at the wheel of a car he did not give Brouse an 'special' treatment!
If our laws or leaders tell us to go out and kill our neighbor, well that obviously goes against God's Word and we are not to do that. If they tell us that all men must join the military when they turn 18 (or older) that is not against God's Word, even if they wind up being sent to war and have to kill people. My rights are violated every time I have to take a drug test when I go to the doctor because I'm on narcotics; because in our country people are supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. It made me really angry and I wanted desperately to do something about it. But when I looked in God's Word for guidance, I found that wasn't His Way. Instead, His Way is for me to give the situation to Him and let Him be the judge and work things out in His Time. And so I did.
Think about who had conquered Israel when Jesus was living on the earth. The Romans! They were very evil. No, not every single Roman, but the leaders sure were, as were many if not most who were in the army of Rome. They kept Israel under very tight control and the Jew's hated it. That's why they wanted the Messiah to come so badly. And that's why they missed Him when He did come. They were so obsessed with their rights and their country being violated, that they were no longer concerned about their spiritual life.
Remember the things we learned about anger. I reminded you of that in my last email. People tend to fight for their rights or try to find ways to not do what our leaders tell us to when they're angry about something, usually something that affects them. Just like I was about the drug tests. But that's not righteous anger. Righteous anger is when God or His Word is somehow being twisted or sinned against. Righteous Anger looks for a way to reconcile people and situations, and never tries to just punish someone because they've sinned. Instead Righteous Anger tries to show them the sin so they can repent and be reconciled to God and to any people involved.
Righteous Anger
When God doesn’t get what He wants.
God’s will is violated
Motivated by a sincere love for God.
Christ is Lord of your life.
Sinful Anger
When I don’t get what I want.
My will is violated
Motivated by a love of some idolatrous desire.
I am lord of my life.
““In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.” (Ephesians 4:26–27) Quoted from Ps 4:4. By NT standards, anger can be either good or bad, depending on motive and purpose. Paul may have been sanctioning righteous indignation, anger at evil. This type of anger hates injustice, immorality, ungodliness, and every other sin. When such anger is unselfish and based on love for God and others, it not only is permissible but commanded. Jesus expressed this righteous anger (see Mt 21:12; Mk 3:5; Jn 2:15). Even righteous anger can turn to bitterness, so it should be set aside by the end of each day. If anger is prolonged, it may become hostile and violate the instruction of Ro 12:17–21. The MacArthur study Bible
Speaking of Righteous Anger, like you, I've also been upset about all that's been going on and wrote about it in Christian Chat yesterday.
I'm so fed up with the rioting and all the talk! I think most folks are too scared to post on it but I think you'd like it and it may clear up some things for you too. By the way, many people in both my family and my husbands were or are policemen too!
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Post by Cindy on May 7, 2015 13:56:09 GMT -5
I start chapter 13 As we know God is the one who allows anything to happen or not to happen. So, we are to respect the ones that are in control, because God put them there for His own reasons weather we like it or not. So when we go against them we go against the will of God. If we do good works and respect the law of our country there is nothing to be afraid of. But if you do works agaisst the law you should be afraid. We should respect the law of our country, pay our taxes, and honour the ones who are in control everywhere. And we should love and respect everyone, thats the way to truly follow the law. If we choose to love others we wont fail to treat them badly and not follow our obligations over them. The end of this corrupted world is near, and we should deny this worlds works and way of view and way of life. We should work for our spirit and not to live according of the will of the flesh |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 7, 2015 15:53:53 GMT -5
Agghhhhh I didn't mean that we should fight for our rights I said:
"However there may be some seemly very good reasons to disobey ( the leader is evil and corrupt, it's violating our 'rights', etc.) but actually those are not reasons to disobey either."
I said we there may be some seemingly (was the word)...in other words people may think IF the Leader is EVIL
or it violates our rights
But I said :
But actually those are NOT
reasons to disobey!!!
We might think at first if a leader is EVIL it would be a good reason but it is not a reason to disobey either.
Did I say that too confusingly?
I most certainly did not mean they were in fact okay reasons.
I feel so bad you thought that was what I meant.
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Post by evafromgreece on May 7, 2015 16:26:51 GMT -5
"As far as why animals had to die, it wasn't so that humans wouldn't have to because humans did die because of sin. Before they sinned, Adam and Eve would not have ever died. They did not get "old" or "sick" before they sinned. Because they sinned, they immediately began to die, and eventually did die, just as all humans have ever since. The only difference now is that for those who have been saved, we don't ever really die, we will live forever; but because we are stuck with this body, we do have to give it up so we can get our new body that will never die. So that isn't why God chose to have animals sacrificed" Hmm, I am not sure then "Next, you said that the Holy Spirit transforms us, but you did not say how. Is it all like magic and just happens without us knowing?" We do know, we do pray for it, and it is up to us if we allow it to work on us or not. "On the question about faith, you are right, our faith grows as we study His Word and spend time with Him. You're also right about us all being part of the body of Christ, the church and everyone having a gift. You said you weren't sure if everyone has a gift or not. Read what Paul said again as he tells us we all have a gift. God doesn't play favorites. He gives everyone a gift, although not everyone uses their gift, and some use it in ways they shouldn't." ok I think you got my question about honoring others backward hon lol. I wanted to know what it would look like to honor others more then yourself. What you described was how to think you are better then others, which is the opposite of what God tells us to do. Yes, lets say we have free time and we are in a hurry to go for a walk near the sea. We see someone cry. We cancel the walk to help. That is an example honouring others About my last question about evil people and how we are to treat them: For example, let's say that some guy sees you and for no reason grabs you and beats you up so bad that others have to take you to the hospital. If I was unsaved and did not understand God's Ways, I would think you were crazy if you forgave the man that beat you up and especially if you went out of your way later to help him somehow. I would want to know why your God would ask you to be kind to such an evil person and why He would ask you to forgive them. Because we are not the one to judge them, this is Gods role Read more: fresh-hope.com/thread/16/ti-bible-study-chat-romans?page=2#ixzz3ZUPxKk32 |
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Post by Cindy on May 8, 2015 12:00:39 GMT -5
Agghhhhh I didn't mean that we should fight for our rights I said: "However there may be some seemly very good reasons to disobey ( the leader is evil and corrupt, it's violating our 'rights', etc.) but actually those are not reasons to disobey either." I said we there may be some seemingly (was the word)...in other words people may think IF the Leader is EVIL or it violates our rights But I said : But actually those are NOTreasons to disobey!!! We might think at first if a leader is EVIL it would be a good reason but it is not a reason to disobey either. Did I say that too confusingly? I most certainly did not mean they were in fact okay reasons. I feel so bad you thought that was what I meant.
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Post by Cindy on May 8, 2015 12:16:37 GMT -5
"As far as why animals had to die, it wasn't so that humans wouldn't have to because humans did die because of sin. Before they sinned, Adam and Eve would not have ever died. They did not get "old" or "sick" before they sinned. Because they sinned, they immediately began to die, and eventually did die, just as all humans have ever since. The only difference now is that for those who have been saved, we don't ever really die, we will live forever; but because we are stuck with this body, we do have to give it up so we can get our new body that will never die. So that isn't why God chose to have animals sacrificed" Hmm, I am not sure then "Next, you said that the Holy Spirit transforms us, but you did not say how. Is it all like magic and just happens without us knowing?" We do know, we do pray for it, and it is up to us if we allow it to work on us or not. "On the question about faith, you are right, our faith grows as we study His Word and spend time with Him. You're also right about us all being part of the body of Christ, the church and everyone having a gift. You said you weren't sure if everyone has a gift or not. Read what Paul said again as he tells us we all have a gift. God doesn't play favorites. He gives everyone a gift, although not everyone uses their gift, and some use it in ways they shouldn't." ok I think you got my question about honoring others backward hon lol. I wanted to know what it would look like to honor others more then yourself. What you described was how to think you are better then others, which is the opposite of what God tells us to do. Yes, lets say we have free time and we are in a hurry to go for a walk near the sea. We see someone cry. We cancel the walk to help. That is an example honouring others About my last question about evil people and how we are to treat them: For example, let's say that some guy sees you and for no reason grabs you and beats you up so bad that others have to take you to the hospital. If I was unsaved and did not understand God's Ways, I would think you were crazy if you forgave the man that beat you up and especially if you went out of your way later to help him somehow. I would want to know why your God would ask you to be kind to such an evil person and why He would ask you to forgive them. Because we are not the one to judge them, this is Gods role Read more: fresh-hope.com/thread/16/ti-bible-study-chat-romans?page=2#ixzz3ZUPxKk32
About the Holy Spirit transforming us, you still haven't told me how we're transformed and again this is something we have talked about a LOT, so I know you know the answer. For some reason though, it's just not getting into your mind right now. This too has been discussed by both Barbara and me on the replies here. So again, please go back and read ALL the replies on this thread and then tell me how we are transformed, ok?
That was a good example of honoring others before ourselves Eva, thank you!
Eva, hon, you're giving me short answers that only another Christian would understand. I'm trying to help you learn to think about how to explain things to someone who does not know the Bible, and does not know God, and therefore does not understand any of this. When you say we're to forgive, pray for and bless people who have been mean to us because "we are not to judge them, that's God's role", it would mean nothing to an unbeliever, other then causing them to have yet more questions. WHY is it God's role and not ours? Why do we have to be nice to people who have hurt us? Why do we have to forgive them? Try to think how you would explain this to someone who really knows nothing about it ok? The reason this is important is because when you speak to unbelievers, the ones who would question you about this, would most likely be people who had been badly hurt by someone. If you give them an answer like the one you gave here, they would most likely get up and run away and not want anything at all to do with a God that made demands like that. People who have been hurt, need hope, and need to be spoken to in a way that shows them that God really cares about them and that He's not going to just let someone get away with doing something horrible to someone else. Think about all of that, and ask the Lord to help you find a way to answer this question. Of course by now you will have read the replies to this by Barbara and that will help you too.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 8, 2015 14:34:00 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy!!! :)
I know that I sometimes write in a confusing manner and I even have occasionally have forgotten a word which makes the sentence the exact opposite of what I meant :(
Back to Romans 13: 8-10
God tells us that when we love others ("our neighbors as ourselves") we fulfilled the other parts of the law, like do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not murder, covet etc.)
We would not want someone to have sex with our mate, so we can know not to have an "affair" with a neighbor's spouse. Likewise we do not want someone to covet and eventually steal our belongings, or murder us. So when we love neighbors, friends and even strangers, we know not to do any of those things to them, because we would be hurt and upset if it happened to us. Therefore Love fulfills the Law.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 8, 2015 15:02:33 GMT -5
In the last verses of Romans 13: 11-14 we are warned that the day is near and we are to 'wake up from our slumber".
Many Christians after they were saved went into an almost hibernation mode and are more or less sleep walking thru life, and as a result we have allowed the enemy (satan and/or his demons) and our sin to let us slip into:
Romans 13:13 ".... carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy",
and other sins....
so that, it would be hard to tell us from an unbeliever, a very sad state indeed!
The believer has to realize that each day that passes means Jesus is that much closer to returning and do we really want Him to find us in such "deeds of darkness" Romans 13:12?
Instead, we are encouraged to put on the "armor of light and clothe ourselves with the Lord Jesus" Romans 13:14
and
"not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh" Romans 13:14
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Post by Cindy on May 9, 2015 8:44:22 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy!!! :)
I know that I sometimes write in a confusing manner and I even have occasionally have forgotten a word which makes the sentence the exact opposite of what I meant :(
Back to Romans 13: 8-10
God tells us that when we love others ("our neighbors as ourselves") we fulfilled the other parts of the law, like do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not murder, covet etc.)
We would not want someone to have sex with our mate, so we can know not to have an "affair" with a neighbor's spouse. Likewise we do not want someone to covet and eventually steal our belongings, or murder us. So when we love neighbors, friends and even strangers, we know not to do any of those things to them, because we would be hurt and upset if it happened to us. Therefore Love fulfills the Law. In the last verses of Romans 13: 11-14 we are warned that the day is near and we are to 'wake up from our slumber".
Many Christians after they were saved went into an almost hibernation mode and are more or less sleep walking thru life, and as a result we have allowed the enemy (satan and/or his demons) and our sin to let us slip into:Romans 13:13 ".... carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy",
and other sins....so that, it would be hard to tell us from an unbeliever, a very sad state indeed!
The believer has to realize that each day that passes means Jesus is that much closer to returning and do we really want Him to find us in such "deeds of darkness" Romans 13:12?
Instead, we are encouraged to put on the "armor of light and clothe ourselves with the Lord Jesus" Romans 13:14
and
"not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh" Romans 13:14
I want to do something different for chapter 14. Instead of doing it the way we have been, what I want you both to do for chapter 14 is to first pray, then read it, then study it over a period of one week. If there's something you don't understand or aren't sure of, I want you to pray about it and try to find the answer yourself. If after doing that, you're still unsure or have any doubts, you can post and ask me about that verse. After you have had one week to do this, I then want you to each write a couple of pages talking about chapter 14 and what the Lord is saying to us in it. Post it here when you're done, and we'll take it from there. So for now, you are the preacher, and you're going to study this chapter to prepare for your sermon and then write your sermon. OK? Of course this means you don't have to post at all during the next week unless of course you have a question and you want to be sure you got the answer right. You can use any materials you want to in order to help you prepare your sermon. Let's see what the Lord says to us through you! 
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 9, 2015 9:46:15 GMT -5
Today is Sat so we would post next Sat right?
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Post by Cindy on May 10, 2015 10:35:28 GMT -5
How about if I give you until Monday the 18th? Mainly because I generally take Sunday's off, plus this gives Eva time to catch up and get started on it too.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 10, 2015 16:42:38 GMT -5
I do have a problem. I prayed and read Ch 14. I think the 7th day Adventists are a cult but many people think they are true Christians.
So their being vegetarians is not a problem, nor that they worship on Sat.
But among the issues I do have a problem with are:
They believe unless a person worships on Sat. they are not saved,
and Sunday worshippers will take the Mark of the Beast.
That you must obey all of God's commands and you will be sinless and the only way to obtain God's favor
That Jesus is the arch angel Michael
and there is no Hell
The list goes on and on.
but if they are not a cult then Ch 14 becomes impossible for me to apply to my life as far as not 'judging' those things I see in 7th Day Adventism as NOT being in Scripture and being something Ellen G White wrote.
There are a few other groups who also try to claim they are Christians who are even waaaay more non-biblical.
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Post by Cindy on May 11, 2015 13:17:41 GMT -5
I do have a problem. I prayed and read Ch 14. I think the 7th day Adventists are a cult but many people think they are true Christians.
So their being vegetarians is not a problem, nor that they worship on Sat.
But among the issues I do have a problem with are:
They believe unless a person worships on Sat. they are not saved,
and Sunday worshippers will take the Mark of the Beast.
That you must obey all of God's commands and you will be sinless and the only way to obtain God's favor
That Jesus is the arch angel Michael
and there is no Hell
The list goes on and on.
but if they are not a cult then Ch 14 becomes impossible for me to apply to my life as far as not 'judging' those things I see in 7th Day Adventism as NOT being in Scripture and being something Ellen G White wrote.
There are a few other groups who also try to claim they are Christians who are even waaaay more non-biblical.
For example: Let's say we meet a sister in Christ who loves the Lord with all her mind, heart and strength, and she is totally convinced that it's a sin to eat meat. She's doing all she can to follow the Lord because she wants to please Him. Let's say that this sister has also confided in us that she always used to eat meat before she was saved, and loves it, so whenever she sees someone else eating it, it's a big temptation to her. I know it's not a sin to eat meat, and have talked to her about it before, and realize that this is something that she's going to have to learn from the Lord and not from me, as she's not ready to accept the truth about it yet. To her, just thinking that it might not be a sin, is a temptation to her to eat it and she's scared to death she's going to sin if she does. So because she's my sister in Christ, and I don't want her to feel as though she's being tempted to sin, I won't eat meat whenever there's a chance she might see me. Someday, maybe the Lord will teach her that it's not a sin, and then we can enjoy it together, but until then, I'll do all I can to help her avoid it. And, who knows, maybe the Lord doesn't want her to eat meat. If so, who am I to argue with Him?
Do you understand now why Romans 14 has nothing to do with people who are part of a cult?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on May 11, 2015 21:49:05 GMT -5
Perfect Cindy! It is what I thought but I wanted to be absolutely sure!
I know there are some strange doctrines that are supposed to be Christian (?)that some people hold to like:
the 'lost tribes of Israel' being in England, or here or there;
God wants us to be 'rich',
or if you just have enough faith you can be healed of almost any medical problem, etc. etc. etc.
I think some of those are apostate, or not the true gospel either....
But can I just ignor them and stick to just what is in Chapter 14 meat eating or not meat eating, what day we worship on
and nothing being unclean ( would that be like pigs? dead bodies? skin diseases, etc.?)
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Post by Cindy on May 12, 2015 12:03:33 GMT -5
Yes, you should ignore them because what Paul wrote in Romans has nothing to do with cults and false teachers. That's why you can ignore them, not because I'm saying you can.
Do you understand why it has nothing to do with false teachers and cults? It's because Paul himself says he's talking about people who are truly born again but who's faith is weak. Paul is always very exact about what and who he's talking to and about. He tells us in other places how to deal with false teachers and cults, but here he's talking only about real Christians who's faith is weak. Do you understand what he means when he says that? He's not saying that they don't have "enough" faith. He's saying that they haven't grown enough yet to understand that they don't have to be concerned about things like he's pointing out. When they're more mature in their faith, then they'll be able to put this behind themselves. It's not necessarily a new Christian, although it could be, it could also be someone who's been saved for years, but hasn't ever grown in their faith. (we have a lot of people like that around now days. This is also why I made a point of saying that the cults and false teachers are preaching another gospel. There's a big difference in someone who's believing wrongly about something and even teaching others about it and so misleading them, and someone who's preaching another gospel.
The gospel is what saves us, it's the basic doctrine we need to know so we can be saved. Therefore things that are not part of that core group of doctrines is not an issue that would cause someone not to be saved if they believed it. The core doctrines are thins like: knowing you're a sinner and that you need a savior, knowing you need to repent and why, knowing that Jesus was/is both fully human and fully God and that he died for our sins and rose again to prove that He had the power to save us from our sins; knowing that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are all individuals and yet are still One God (the trinity); knowing we're saved by grace through faith and not of works or anything we've done; that Jesus is the only way to salvation, and that He was born of a virgin. The JW's and other groups, deny the resurrection, and also deny that Jesus was/is both God and man, so that makes them guilty of preaching another gospel. Catholics deny that we're saved by grace through faith alone, among other things and so they also preach a different gospel.
Therefore Paul is not speaking about them or anyone else that is part of a cult. He's only talking about people who know and believe the truth about the gospel and are saved but who's faith is weak. Understand?
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Post by evafromgreece on May 12, 2015 13:47:50 GMT -5
Hello guys.
Cindy I see what you mean by telling me to try to explain things in the way I was to explain them to an unbeliever.
Although I am a bit lost in the thread and I still haven't found the answers on the issue about animals and the transformation issue.
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Post by evafromgreece on May 12, 2015 14:48:24 GMT -5
Chapter 14
I believe that in 14:1-5 Paul wants to make clear that some things are not that important. It reminds me of the story of Jesus who did heal in the day of Sabbath, and the priests did not notice the importance of the healing and focused on more on the day. So Paul says that believers are to support people who are in their beginning in faith and not to judge them about things that has no importance, such us food or seeing one day as more holy than another.
In verses 6-9 Paul notices that our lives and anything we do in our lives belong to the Lord, we belong to the Lord who is the Lord of all and rose from the dead, and that is what really matters.
In 10-12 Paul says again that we should not judge, and that this is God's role, because He knows our hearts. When we judge and not support, we make people go away from God and this is not helpful, this would not help people get closer to Him and get saved, and this is a sin also.
Then also Paul tries to declare again what is important and what is not.
There are not clear and unclear foods and we should not judge people on their eating habits and make them go away from Christ for something really useless. What is really useful is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, the above I would say have eternal value while food has value only on earth. So we should not destroy Gods works by focusing on earthly things such us food.
And I am not sure about 22-23
And why actually they were talking so much about food?
Were they talking about fasting, right? Who is fasting and whos not? |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 12, 2015 22:46:41 GMT -5
Yes I do understand and Thank you!!!
I can now go ahead and prepare what to write!
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Post by Cindy on May 13, 2015 11:57:43 GMT -5
As far as why animals had to die, it wasn't so that humans wouldn't have to because humans did die because of sin. Before they sinned, Adam and Eve would not have ever died. They did not get "old" or "sick" before they sinned. Because they sinned, they immediately began to die, and eventually did die, just as all humans have ever since. The only difference now is that for those who have been saved, we don't ever really die, we will live forever; but because we are stuck with this body, we do have to give it up so we can get our new body that will never die. So that isn't why God chose to have animals sacrificed. Here's Barbara's post about the animals and transformation. She did a very good job explaining it so hopefully you'll be able to understand it:
Romans 12:
So the first thing we need to try and understand about is the word 'sacrifice' in this chapter.
God himself killed the first animal and made the 1st sacrifice for Adam and Eve's sin.
Animals ( especially lambs were used because they pointed to the "Lamb of God which would take away the sins of all who believed on Him (Jesus).
The animals had to die in order to make peace with God ( atonement for sins) and then to receive forgiveness.
However, The animals could not really pay for any human sin,
but rather, they 'foreshadowed' Jesus's one time (only....once and for ever) death on the cross ( sacrifice) which as far as God was concerned and so should we) ended all future animal sacrifice.
So that brings us to the first verse in Romans chapter 12 where we are told that we believers are to be "living ( not dead) sacrifices. Chapter 12 is going to help us see and understand what and how living sacrifices think and behave.
Romans 12: V 2 tells us:
"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind."
We are 'transformed" by the renewing of our minds by studying ( with Jesus) the word of God the Bible.
Hebrews 4:12 tells us that God's Word is powerful:
"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."
What we fill our minds with..... is what we will think..... and that will affect how we act.
God's living alive word, in fact, in John 1:1 tells us that:
The Word Became Flesh
John:1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
The Word IS GOD.....you can't find a better way to not be conformed to this world!
So we know a living sacrifice doesn't have to die ( but it might require suffering) except a 'dying to self'and placing ourselves totally under God's control).
Some people (even some Christians) might balk at that idea of being under God's 'control' because they believe the greatest blessing is to be 'freeeeeee"!
But that is a lie, no one is free!! If you do not belong to God then you belong to satan and are a slave of sin!
So Roman's 12 shows us how to be totally devoted to the Lord, to be Holy and pleasing to Him because of His mercy and love to us. A major shift needs to happen from our self-centeredness and what will God give me to how may I serve others with the gifts God has given me. Each person has a 'primary' gift.
Tho all believers should cultive the other gifts...i.e. like 'serving' even if it is not his or her speciality.
I have been told by other people that my 'gift' was mercy, but I struggle with the 'cheerful' part sometimes.
The 'world' today, especially in our country, starts teaching very very young children to be 'proud'.
Parents and teachers alike either knowingly or without thinking it thru will often say: " I am soooo proud of you" or You should be so proud of your self etc. God states this theme ( of not being proud or conceited etc. 3 or 4 times in this chapter.....
When God says a similar thing several times we know it is important!!
Perhaps as we go thru this list in Ch. 12 and we see a little progress, we may be tempted to start thinking how much better we are than those who don't do any of these good and Godly things....
But God does not want us to be boastful and think we are better than other people.
God has given each believer a 'measure of faith' and it is with that we are able to think with sober judgement.
And then there is love and it must be real love and sincere.
The 2nd half of this verse (9) says we are to hate what is evil. The word 'hate' may seem like such a strong word, that many people think the word 'hate' is evil.
But this is not so, because 'evil' is so 'evil it can only be hated....and furthermore God tells us in the last part of this verse to cling to what is good!
We are to be devoted to each other in brotherly love and we are told in the following verses over 4 times to honor others above ourselves.
God gives us more of His wonderful list for us to begin to be transformed;
being patient in affliction seems like a hard one and will take much prayer and God's Holy spirit etc. to help us put into practice. In fact, God encourages us to be faithful in prayer and with such a list so unlike what most of us would do naturally, faithful in prayer makes great sense!
Perhaps one of the hardest to put into practice is v.14 , which tells us we are to:
"14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse"
Many people's first response would be to strike back, but God says to Bless them instead.
I just read yesterday an example of this: Pastor SAEED ABEDINI's head of his cell group, attacked him for singing praises to God....so instead of lashing back at him...
Pastor Saeed hugged him and showed him love that was in his heart.
And this poor man is in so much pain from multiple beatings ( he was supposed to have surgery but they never gave it to him rather they are increasing their torture.!
But the Lord goes even further and makes it clear we are not to repay anyone evil who has been evil to us....and also we are to as much as possible live in peace with every one v.18
We are warned not to seek revenge because that is something that is totally up to God. Instead we are to show our enemy as much love as we can so that we won't be over come by evil, but will overcome evil with good!!! Chapter 14
I believe that in 14:1-5 Paul wants to make clear that some things are not that important. It reminds me of the story of Jesus who did heal in the day of Sabbath, and the priests did not notice the importance of the healing and focused on more on the day. So Paul says that believers are to support people who are in their beginning in faith and not to judge them about things that has no importance, such us food or seeing one day as more holy than another.
In verses 6-9 Paul notices that our lives and anything we do in our lives belong to the Lord, we belong to the Lord who is the Lord of all and rose from the dead, and that is what really matters.
In 10-12 Paul says again that we should not judge, and that this is God's role, because He knows our hearts. When we judge and not support, we make people go away from God and this is not helpful, this would not help people get closer to Him and get saved, and this is a sin also.
Then also Paul tries to declare again what is important and what is not.
There are not clear and unclear foods and we should not judge people on their eating habits and make them go away from Christ for something really useless. What is really useful is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, the above I would say have eternal value while food has value only on earth. So we should not destroy Gods works by focusing on earthly things such us food.
And I am not sure about 22-23
And why actually they were talking so much about food?
Were they talking about fasting, right? Who is fasting and whos not?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on May 18, 2015 12:21:25 GMT -5
Romans 14
When we study Romans 14, the first thing we need to understand is this message is only for true believers. It does not apply to atheists, or believers in false religions, pagan religions, false gospels (which are not true gospels).
So Chapter 14 of Romans is written to mature believers in the only true gospel, concerning other believers who may be new believers ( 'baby Christians'), or even older believers who have not really matured in the faith.....
or as Romans 14:1 says: "One whose faith is weak".
Certain things like the eating of mean or not eating of meat, or which day is sacred are not issues that we need to take the weak brother or sister to task about.
The important things are to be grateful to the Lord, give Thanks to Him, to live our lives for Him and if necessary to die for Him.
So we are not to put or be a stumbling block to a brother or sister in the Lord.
Therefore we should not distress them by what we do or do not eat around them, because not only would it not be a loving way to behave, we don't want to possibly destroy or delay the work of the Lord for the sake of food!
We know the Kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking ( tho we will eat and drink in His Kingdom in Heaven. There is even a marriage feast which I am looking forward to!) Rather God's kingdom is first of Love, peace, and joy!
Therefore, we should not eat meat, drink wine, or do anything that might cause them to fall.
We have to be careful what we say and how we say it, so that we are not insensitive or inconsiderate, thereby hurting their feelings, embarrassing them or offending them in public or private.
In fact, in these cases it would be better if we did not even express what we believe about these issues....we can and should 'deny self'. ( since it's not a 'salvation issue').
We can let if be between ourselves and God.
It can be an opportunity for the strong mature believer to humble themselves and not demand their "rights' to enjoy food that they know is perfectly fine to eat.
They can practice patience, compassion, and understanding of the weaker, misinformed believer.
God loves them and so should we.
But we should glorify Christ Jesus in all we say and do.
We all walk according to the light God has given us, so a new baby Christian tho misinformed and even in error, if he thinks a food is unclean then it is unclean to him...until he is persuaded otherwise.
Don't shake his tender and weak faith over a bit of meant you fancy.
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Post by evafromgreece on May 18, 2015 15:19:49 GMT -5
The only thing I am not sure why it being mentioned so much is food. Did they have strict rules on what to eat or not to eat? I remember some issues in OT about unclear animals etc, but this is NT
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