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Post by evafromgreece on Dec 7, 2015 16:16:04 GMT -5
In Genesis 32:20 and Exodus 33:11, the person that Jacob and Moses saw, I believe was Jesus. The person a human cannot see is the Father. I think it explain this also in John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. ", we as humans we can see only the Son. For example the students of Christ have seen Him again after the resurrection I mean the answer on the above |
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Post by evafromgreece on Dec 7, 2015 16:24:43 GMT -5
OK, so I don't forget, after you do the one about Calling on Jesus, the next one will be Was John the Baptist really Elijah or not, from Matthew 11:13-14 and John 1:19-21.
John was not Elijah.
Humans can only be one human. The Bible does not teach reincarnation!!
A person could use an alias ( like the name John but in fact really be a person with a different name).
It's true Elijah did not die but was taken to Heaven in a whirlwind (Enoch also was taken to Heaven without dying). I think they point to the rapture but that is not the question I am to answer
However Elijah is supposed to come back before the 'Day of the Lord' s so one might attempt to use that fact as part of the proof John was Elijah...
BUT...
John clearly states that he John is NOT Elijah:
"20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.”
However it was prophesied that John would be in the Spirit of Elijah.
Luke 1:17
".....And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah..."
Also ““See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.”” (Malachi 4:5–6) and “But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.”” (Mark 9:13) as well. 2 Kings 2:11 tells about Elijah's ascension. Also “A voice of one calling: “In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.” (Isaiah 40:3)
and Isaiah 40:9, not to mention the ones in between lol.
Keep in mind the prophecies about Elijah are from over 400 years before either John or Jesus was born. Also when you're explaining a contradiction you should always try to use other scriptures to show the clear meaning of the ones in question. (not saying you didn't, just saying) You showed Luke 1:17 which is a good start, but you need to quote the whole thing and let us know who is speaking to who so we have it in context, and then tell if it's a quote from another scripture. (which it is: Malachi 4:5–6) Tell us that he's coming "in the spirit of Elijah" is good, but don't you think that may bring up more questions, like then why wasn't Malachi more specific? Or why did Jesus say both that Elijah has already come and that he WILL come and restore all things? John didn't restore all things so that isn't true is it? And why would Jesus say "if you're willing to accept it"? (Matthew 11:14 ) Either a person is or isn't someone right?
While John did seem to state clearly that he wasn't Elijah, we must look at the rest of his conversation with them about this, not just that one verse I gave you: “He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ.” They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ ”” (John 1:20–23)
What I'm saying hon, is that your answer is good for a start, but you need to go further, ok? Short answers are good, but only when they contain all the needed information. Don't be afraid of a long answer. 
I am just reading this at the moment. I believe the issue of John and Elijah is something tough to explain. How can somebody can be in the spirit of another human being? Elijah also didn't die, so that makes it even more confusing. Its accurate to say, once you die you don't get back on earth. But he didn't die he just left.4 I don't know. |
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Post by Cindy on Dec 8, 2015 12:51:33 GMT -5
Has man ever seen God or can a person ever see God? Can God be seen face to face (Genesis 32:30; Exodus 33:11) or not (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 1 John 4:12)? Show why these verses do not contradict each other.In Genesis 32:20 and Exodus 33:11, the person that Jacob and Moses saw, I believe was Jesus. The person a human cannot see is the Father. I think it explain this also in John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. ", we as humans we can see only the Son. For example the students of Christ have seen Him again after the resurrection
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Post by Cindy on Dec 8, 2015 12:53:13 GMT -5
That's good, BUT: Check out: “The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.” (Matthew 17:10–13) Keep in mind that he said this after John had been killed and after the 3 disciples had seen Elijah with Jesus at the transfiguration which is in Matthew 17:2–3 and on.
Also ““See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.”” (Malachi 4:5–6) and “But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.”” (Mark 9:13) as well. 2 Kings 2:11 tells about Elijah's ascension. Also “A voice of one calling: “In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.” (Isaiah 40:3)
and Isaiah 40:9, not to mention the ones in between lol.
Keep in mind the prophecies about Elijah are from over 400 years before either John or Jesus was born. Also when you're explaining a contradiction you should always try to use other scriptures to show the clear meaning of the ones in question. (not saying you didn't, just saying) You showed Luke 1:17 which is a good start, but you need to quote the whole thing and let us know who is speaking to who so we have it in context, and then tell if it's a quote from another scripture. (which it is: Malachi 4:5–6) Tell us that he's coming "in the spirit of Elijah" is good, but don't you think that may bring up more questions, like then why wasn't Malachi more specific? Or why did Jesus say both that Elijah has already come and that he WILL come and restore all things? John didn't restore all things so that isn't true is it? And why would Jesus say "if you're willing to accept it"? (Matthew 11:14 ) Either a person is or isn't someone right?
While John did seem to state clearly that he wasn't Elijah, we must look at the rest of his conversation with them about this, not just that one verse I gave you: “He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ.” They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ ”” (John 1:20–23)
What I'm saying hon, is that your answer is good for a start, but you need to go further, ok? Short answers are good, but only when they contain all the needed information. Don't be afraid of a long answer.
I am just reading this at the moment. I believe the issue of John and Elijah is something tough to explain. How can somebody can be in the spirit of another human being? Elijah also didn't die, so that makes it even more confusing. Its accurate to say, once you die you don't get back on earth. But he didn't die he just left.4 I don't know. |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Dec 8, 2015 14:45:04 GMT -5
Since I am not feeling very good, first time in I can't remember hearing a raspy sound when breathing, extremely tired and a stye on my eye etc. I will just add to what I already wrote rather than trying to combine in proper order what i wrote before and now.
In Matthew 11:10 God said he would send His messenger Elijah to prepare the way before Jesus. So John was fulfilling the role of Elijah in spirit and in power but not in reincarnation or some weird body snatcher type thing.
" will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you."
So John did what the prophet Elijah would have done for Jesus.
Malachi 4:5 " will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you."
Elijah The messenger (who is like Elijah in spirit and power calling men to repentance) is not the same person,
as Elijah the prophet.
Elijah the prophet, who never died, will come back some time in the future, before Judgement day.
I am not sure I have totally explained it yet but I need to lay down my stomach is also upset and I am congested
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Post by Cindy on Dec 9, 2015 12:57:07 GMT -5
sorry everyone, not a good day; can't stay awake. Guess my body is insisting I rest whether I like it or not. I'll try again tomorrow.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Dec 10, 2015 15:21:24 GMT -5
I am sorry to hear you are not feeling well, I will pray about it.
I too have been feeling kind of sick and I only slept a weeee bit last night which doesn't help.
I am not sure if I included Malachi 3:1 to show the difference between Elijah the messenger and Elijah the Prophet.....I think I gave the scripture words but didn't say where in the Bible it was:
"I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty."
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Post by Cindy on Dec 11, 2015 12:49:00 GMT -5
Since I am not feeling very good, first time in I can't remember hearing a raspy sound when breathing, extremely tired and a stye on my eye etc. I will just add to what I already wrote rather than trying to combine in proper order what i wrote before and now.
In Matthew 11:10 God said he would send His messenger Elijah to prepare the way before Jesus. So John was fulfilling the role of Elijah in spirit and in power but not in reincarnation or some weird body snatcher type thing.
" will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you."
So John did what the prophet Elijah would have done for Jesus.
Malachi 4:5 " will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you."
Elijah The messenger (who is like Elijah in spirit and power calling men to repentance) is not the same person,
as Elijah the prophet.
Elijah the prophet, who never died, will come back some time in the future, before Judgement day.
I am not sure I have totally explained it yet but I need to lay down my stomach is also upset and I am congested
Yes, I understand what you're saying and you got it right hon. Very good! The only thing I'd object to is how you're calling one Elijah the prophet and the other, Elijah the messenger. They are both Elijah the Prophet. A prophet is God's messenger. I understand why you labeled them differently, but that can actually lead to more confusion instead of less for someone who doesn't know the Word, and could even be taken wrong. However, like I said, I know why you did it and that you're not feeling well which makes it even more understandable. Please understand that when I point out things like this, it's not because you got something "wrong", or did badly, because you didn't. I only point them out so you can get even better. I do the very same thing to myself believe it or not!  To me, the whole point of this is not just to answer a question, but to get better and better at doing so. I learn from what you guys say and hope that by my pointing things out like this, that you guys can get better too. I am sorry to hear you are not feeling well, I will pray about it.
I too have been feeling kind of sick and I only slept a weeee bit last night which doesn't help.
I am not sure if I included Malachi 3:1 to show the difference between Elijah the messenger and Elijah the Prophet.....I think I gave the scripture words but didn't say where in the Bible it was:
"I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty."
I hope you're feeling better too. I'm still hurting but at least I'm not exhausted like I have been.
Did I already give you another one? I honestly can't remember....I'm getting confused with you guys doing two different ones. That's ok though. I saw another one today that might be fun: It's two verses right next to each other: “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.” (Proverbs 26:4–5) Those certainly seem to contradict each other don't they? Please explain what they're saying and how they are not contradictory.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Dec 11, 2015 17:42:50 GMT -5
Oh thank you soooo much for explaining that if they had excepted Jesus as the Messiah then John would have been the Elijah spoken of in prophecy.....I did not understand that but as soon as I read it, it so explained the missing piece!
How funny your pick for the next one, I often would wonder about those very two verses....but but I was going to ask YOU about them LOL sigh
I am thinking it might have something to do with the phrase "according to his folly"
But just an aside: The thing I notice about this is, the so-called contradiction is so 'evident'. ( Not that there is one....) but it's like God knew people would knock themselves out pouring over the Bible ... not to get close to the Lord but to 'prove' it false via 'contradictions.
It's like God had a sense of humor and said, don't bother yourselves having to work hours on end trying to find a contradiction, look... here you go, I put these two side by side for you LOL
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Post by Cindy on Dec 12, 2015 10:36:43 GMT -5
LOL Yep, it sure sounds like it doesn't it? I'm sorry hon, I thought you'd remember that from when we studied the gospels but it has been a very long time since then.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Dec 12, 2015 18:37:01 GMT -5
So first we should pray before we answer, or not answer, a fool according to his foolish, folly.
(Anyone who does not believe God's word is a fool).
However, two different people could pose the exact same question about God, His word, or some problem etc.
Sometimes, we may be almost certain that, one of the people is just itching for a fight with the intent to make us, God, His word etc. look foolish, racist, homophobic, chauvinistic, cruel, ignorant, etc. etc.
Yet, another person may be truly wanting to understand.
If a person is just wanting to argue and make God look bad, then we do not need to reply.
We need to pray and be careful in trying to discern the objective of a person, if we were to make our decision based on just our own ability to 'read' people, without prayer, we might be making a grievous mistake in not answering someone, because they ask the question in an angry belligerent manner.
A person could be sincerely wanting to know, but due to some great sorrow in their life, they feel hurt and angry at God because they don't understand why something very sad happened. We would want to answer that person ( if we could).
Actually, an insincere fool, might ask in a very calm, seemingly thoughtful , truly seeking way, but very soon, their true motive would become evident, as they become more snide and contemptuous.
I think I will wait for your reply and make sure I am on the right track.
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Post by Cindy on Dec 15, 2015 12:08:41 GMT -5
Eva, is there a reason you can't be here every day? It's getting difficult for me again to keep track of things because you're always behind and therefore are not doing the same lesson as Barbara. It's not like Barbara's going fast either because if she was, we'd be doing a different one every other day and we're obviously not doing that. So this is getting pretty frustrating for me that you can't keep up. So first we should pray before we answer, or not answer, a fool according to his foolish, folly.
(Anyone who does not believe God's word is a fool).
However, two different people could pose the exact same question about God, His word, or some problem etc.
Sometimes, we may be almost certain that, one of the people is just itching for a fight with the intent to make us, God, His word etc. look foolish, racist, homophobic, chauvinistic, cruel, ignorant, etc. etc.
Yet, another person may be truly wanting to understand.
If a person is just wanting to argue and make God look bad, then we do not need to reply.
We need to pray and be careful in trying to discern the objective of a person, if we were to make our decision based on just our own ability to 'read' people, without prayer, we might be making a grievous mistake in not answering someone, because they ask the question in an angry belligerent manner.
A person could be sincerely wanting to know, but due to some great sorrow in their life, they feel hurt and angry at God because they don't understand why something very sad happened. We would want to answer that person ( if we could).
Actually, an insincere fool, might ask in a very calm, seemingly thoughtful , truly seeking way, but very soon, their true motive would become evident, as they become more snide and contemptuous.
I think I will wait for your reply and make sure I am on the right track.
That's certainly one way of looking at it. By the way, the biblical definition of a fool is: an unbeliever who rejects the Truth. So theses verses are talking about how we should reply to a fool under different circumstances (which is what you pointed out). Like you said, it takes discernment to decide which way is the correct way to respond to the fool. To know for sure how to decide which way to respond to them we would also want to look at other scriptures that teach us about that. For example we're told to “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.” (Titus 3:9–10) and “Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.” (2 Timothy 2:23) When looking at the verses in proverbs we can see that the first one is saying that we shouldn't answer a fool by agreeing with their ungodly ideas as that would make us as bad as they are. We know that too because the Lord tells us to defend the faith, not to just agree and tolerate everyone's ideas. Agreeing with a fool that way only gives them false confidence to continue to think they're right, and doesn't help them at all. Instead we need to either rebuke them or else gently explain the Truth to them, (depending on the situation). The second verse is referring to the content of our rebuke/correction of them. We have to correct them based on what they said "their folly". In other words if they're insisting that the world just came together all by itself, it's not going to be very helpful if we try to correct them by talking about God's sovereignty, instead we need to talk to them about how God made the earth and all that's in it and show them how foolish their ideas are. If we don't do that, then they'll go away thinking they're really smart and we will have been the real fool.
Let's hold off starting another one until we hear from Eva...if it doesn't take too long that is.... OK? Sorry hon, I'm just exhausted and need to go rest anyway.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Dec 15, 2015 18:59:53 GMT -5
I also thought that we ( well me anyway) need to pray about what is really my goal in engaging a fool?
I know many times in the past, I would hop right into the fray, feeling confident in 'my' knowledge, wisdom, intellect etc. to 'win' the debate.
Firstly, because I did not pray first or have the Holy Spirit guidance, in many ways I was essentially coming from a similar motivation.....'my glory' and to win!!
Even IF I had given a correct Biblical answer, because I had not prayed, the 'foolish person' could tell it was a battle of egos and I had become like him. On some basic level that person could not see a difference between he ( or she) and me.....I was not debating to give God the glory.
Yes, in my heart, I did wish the person would see the light of Jesus and be saved, but because I had answered the fool without God's help, most likely and most times, I was left disappointed.
Another thing is often the 'fool' was in some ways a better 'fighter' than I. Someone sensing I was on my own, they would often soon start baiting me with all manner of swear words, threats to my family even, etc. In the very very beginning I would often fall right into their trap and get angry...so I not only lost, I was not a good ambassador for my Lord and I felt terrible.
What was even worse, was on some occasions having now assured themselves of a "live one" they had e-mailed or texted their friends to join in....so it became me against a gang of anesthetists.
I still have fallen to the terrible 'tactical' error ( as a soldier of Jesus) by starting and engagement without pray or discernment first, but I have learned a little anyway, one post and I am oh oh....oh noooooo I am not going down that rabbit hole again and immediately pray before the next post...
And I have seen a different response when I am not going in my own strength and for my glory. I sometimes feel like giving myself a kick that I still will jump before looking ( praying).
People like to accuse Christian of a "blind' leap of faith....no we are not to do that we are to count the cost etc.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Dec 15, 2015 19:02:55 GMT -5
I am so sorry you are feeling poorly! I have also been feeling punky. Two nights in a row now I have had to get up and 2 am and last night 3 am to go sit. I don't think my body takes kindly to that sort of thing anymore.
I will of course keep praying for you.
Thank you as always for your wonderful posts!!!!!
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Post by Cindy on Dec 16, 2015 11:20:33 GMT -5
I also thought that we ( well me anyway) need to pray about what is really my goal in engaging a fool?
I know many times in the past, I would hop right into the fray, feeling confident in 'my' knowledge, wisdom, intellect etc. to 'win' the debate.
Firstly, because I did not pray first or have the Holy Spirit guidance, in many ways I was essentially coming from a similar motivation.....'my glory' and to win!!
Even IF I had given a correct Biblical answer, because I had not prayed, the 'foolish person' could tell it was a battle of egos and I had become like him. On some basic level that person could not see a difference between he ( or she) and me.....I was not debating to give God the glory.
Yes, in my heart, I did wish the person would see the light of Jesus and be saved, but because I had answered the fool without God's help, most likely and most times, I was left disappointed.
Another thing is often the 'fool' was in some ways a better 'fighter' than I. Someone sensing I was on my own, they would often soon start baiting me with all manner of swear words, threats to my family even, etc. In the very very beginning I would often fall right into their trap and get angry...so I not only lost, I was not a good ambassador for my Lord and I felt terrible.
What was even worse, was on some occasions having now assured themselves of a "live one" they had e-mailed or texted their friends to join in....so it became me against a gang of anesthetists.
I still have fallen to the terrible 'tactical' error ( as a soldier of Jesus) by starting and engagement without pray or discernment first, but I have learned a little anyway, one post and I am oh oh....oh noooooo I am not going down that rabbit hole again and immediately pray before the next post...
And I have seen a different response when I am not going in my own strength and for my glory. I sometimes feel like giving myself a kick that I still will jump before looking ( praying).
People like to accuse Christian of a "blind' leap of faith....no we are not to do that we are to count the cost etc.
“But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.” (Titus 3:9–10)
“Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.” (2 Timothy 2:23)
““Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.” (Matthew 7:6)
“If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.” (Matthew 10:14)
“I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.” (Romans 16:17)
“In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:6)
“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.” (2 John 10–11)
“But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.” (1 Corinthians 5:11)
Studying all of these showed me when I should speak and when I should stay silent and not engage the person at all. When we had our old board, if you remember, there was a time I was very active in the apologetics forum. God taught me a lot from that. He taught me a lot because I constantly made mistakes in how I dealt with the people there. With His help, I learned from them - well first I learned they were wrong, and then I learned what I was supposed to do LOL. But if you look at these scriptures, it really limits who we should speak to about the faith. Yes, we are called to defend the faith, but that doesn't mean we're to do so with every single person that asks a question or who insists they're right about something that is obviously against God's Word. Again, when we had our old board, you may have noticed that I completely stopped posting in the apologetics forum after awhile. The reason I did was because it became very clear to me that the people who were posting in there were not in the least bit interested in knowing the Truth. All they wanted to do was argue. They spent their days going from one board to another, arguing about the very same things everywhere. They did this not just for a few weeks or months, or until their questions or statements were adequately answered, but literally for years and for all I know are still doing it! So there was no reason for me to talk to them because they weren't interested in the Truth.
As I continued to grow in my faith, and in part due to the time I had spent in apologetics, I got to know the way people talk when they're not interested in the Truth, when all they want to do is argue. So when new people would come to our board and post something, say about creation or any subject really, trying to prove that what we believe is wrong, my standard answer was to post that if they really wanted to know the Truth and weren't just interested in arguing, then all they had to do was pray and ask the Lord to guide them to the Truth and read - and then I'd tell them whatever scriptures were relevant to what they were talking about.
If I wasn't completely sure whether or not they were interested in the truth, I'd post a simple reply to their question, not a long answer, and wait to see how they dealt with my reply as that would show their true intention. People who like to argue all tend to say the same things and quote each other a lot or quote others who argue on their side of things etc, so they're pretty easy to spot. A few times there were some who asked me why I wouldn't come and debate with them, and to them I told the truth: that I simply didn't have the time to waste on something that wasn't going to do them any good anyway, when there were people that really were interested in knowing God's Truth. After that, I wouldn't reply to them again.
Of course, if the person was truly interested, then I didn't mind spending all day talking to them if it would help.
I am so sorry you are feeling poorly! I have also been feeling punky. Two nights in a row now I have had to get up and 2 am and last night 3 am to go sit. I don't think my body takes kindly to that sort of thing anymore.
I will of course keep praying for you.
Thank you as always for your wonderful posts!!!!! |
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Post by evafromgreece on Dec 16, 2015 16:17:41 GMT -5
"My sweet friend, you're over thinking it hon. But that's ok, because other people do too and we need to be able to answer them. Let me deal with what "forms" Jesus has been "seen" in, since we know Jesus is God. First of all, anytime Jesus was seen in the old or new testament, He was never seen in "All His Glory" as God. In the old testament, He took on the form of what others thought was an angel, so they did not see "God" because He disguised Himself. When He was born here, He took on human flesh, and by that very act, He again disguised Himself. So again, although people saw Him, they saw Him as a human not what He really looks like as God. At the transfiguration, He allowed some of His Glory to shine through His human flesh, but not all of it, and so again what people saw was the human Jesus with some glory around Him. Yes, He's God and they knew it, but they still had not seen God as He really is. If they had, they would have died. Last, about Stephen. Yes, He saw Jesus as God, and what? He died! No one can see God and live is what the bible says and Stephen did not live after seeing Jesus as God, so that was fulfilled there. When Jesus tells us that if we've "seen" Him, we've "seen" the Father, He's not talking about His body, He's talking about His character. He's saying that if we know what He is like, then we can know what the Father is like, because they are both the same. He's not talking about His body or what we would refer to as physical looks. Again, when we read that Jesus is "the image of God", it is not talking about His body or what He looks like. It's talking about what He is like. We can trust the Father, because we know the Son, not because we know what they look like ...that wouldn't help us at all. When Jesus said that to Philip, He was letting Philip know in unmistakable terms, that He was God. He was telling him and the other disciples that He and the Father were one and the same, and beginning to teach them of the Trinity. Remember, this was before His death and resurrection and the disciples really didn't grasp it until after the resurrection. They were still confused about it all. He was letting them know that they had been given a very rare privilege and that they need not worry about committing idolatry, because He was God, He and the Father are One. It's more easily understood when you read the dialog in context there. Again, Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of God. What does representation mean? Let me quote MacArthur here: The term translated “exact representation” is used only here in the NT. In extrabiblical literature, it was employed for an engraving on wood, an etching in metal, a brand on animal hide, an impression in clay, and a stamped image on coins. The Son is the perfect imprint, the exact representation of the nature and essence of God in time and space (cf. Jn 14:9; Col 1:15; 2:9). The MacArthur study Bible So again we are not talking here about what God looks like physically. Now let's look at what Rev. says: “and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.” (Revelation 1:13–16) Revelation 1:17 says John fell down as though dead when He saw this in his vision. Notice that John can't really describe what Jesus looks like. Instead of saying He has white hair, He's tall, etc. he keeps saying He "looked like", trying to find something to compare what He looked like that we might be able to understand. He was not saying that Jesus fee were bronze, but that they "looked like" bronze glowing in a furnace, etc. But, we can also tell from the way John worded this, that some of it at least is symbolic and not actual. What Jesus showed Him in this vision was not necessarily what God looks like, but rather what Jesus wanted John to understand from what he was shown. So John too didn't actually see God as God. Instead he saw a vision of what God wanted him to see, but even that was so overwhelming that John couldn't handle it. The way I look at it is like when we as parents are trying to explain an especially difficult concept to a very young child. We have to use terms and pictures that they can understand to try and get that concept across. Although we tend to think we're pretty intelligent, compared to God, we're more like little toddlers who really don't have a clue. So God tries to explain things in a way that gets His message across to us. The bottom line is that no one has ever actually seen God in His own form and lived to tell about it. I'd say that Stephen came as close as anyone could, but even he may not have seen Jesus as He really is because if he had, He wouldn't have been able to say a word. He would have been instantly overwhelmed and died. Jesus in His love and mercy, showed Stephen a glimpse of Himself to comfort him and the Holy Spirit gave him the words he spoke to be a witness to Israel one more time, and of course to us as well. Let's look at what the scriptures say: “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”” (Acts 7:55–56) Saying he saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God, was saying to the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah and that He had the right to judge them, as it would have called to their minds the scene of Dan 7:13. By this time, Israel was already under God's judgement for not accepting Jesus as their Messiah, and this let them know that that Judgement was coming and that it would come from Jesus. (it came in full in 70ad). So, as in most things, what Stephen saw was what God allowed him to see. We have to simply believe what all the scripture says though and not just that one line. And we know that scripture teaches that no one can see God and live. That leaves 2 possibilities: Stephen did see God and of course died, or Stephen saw a representation of God (kind of like the transfiguration) just before he died to be a witness. Either way works I suppose, because regardless, Stephen didn't live, he died. Does that help? Read more: fresh-hope.com/thread/1083/next-study-explaining-contradictions?page=3#ixzz3uWLjJdkJ" You wrote the above to Barbara. That means that people saw an image of God? What couldn't this be Jesus in the human form? |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Dec 17, 2015 2:19:38 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy, Your words will help me for Friday. The tenant I have written about ( who has moved) and who has asked me to have coffee with her for months, has finally settled on coffee this Friday.
She wants to give me a Christmas gift ( I am pretty sure, she mentioned something to that effect earlier), so I agreed. I don't expect do this ever again, but a prayer would be appreciated.
Also on Fri the grandchildren will be going to Calif to see their dad ( tho I will have to go sit at 2 am LOL. so it will be a busy day!
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Post by Cindy on Dec 17, 2015 12:26:04 GMT -5
"My sweet friend, you're over thinking it hon. But that's ok, because other people do too and we need to be able to answer them. Let me deal with what "forms" Jesus has been "seen" in, since we know Jesus is God. First of all, anytime Jesus was seen in the old or new testament, He was never seen in "All His Glory" as God. In the old testament, He took on the form of what others thought was an angel, so they did not see "God" because He disguised Himself. When He was born here, He took on human flesh, and by that very act, He again disguised Himself. So again, although people saw Him, they saw Him as a human not what He really looks like as God. At the transfiguration, He allowed some of His Glory to shine through His human flesh, but not all of it, and so again what people saw was the human Jesus with some glory around Him. Yes, He's God and they knew it, but they still had not seen God as He really is. If they had, they would have died. Last, about Stephen. Yes, He saw Jesus as God, and what? He died! No one can see God and live is what the bible says and Stephen did not live after seeing Jesus as God, so that was fulfilled there.
When Jesus tells us that if we've "seen" Him, we've "seen" the Father, He's not talking about His body, He's talking about His character. He's saying that if we know what He is like, then we can know what the Father is like, because they are both the same. He's not talking about His body or what we would refer to as physical looks. Again, when we read that Jesus is "the image of God", it is not talking about His body or what He looks like. It's talking about what He is like. We can trust the Father, because we know the Son, not because we know what they look like ...that wouldn't help us at all.
When Jesus said that to Philip, He was letting Philip know in unmistakable terms, that He was God. He was telling him and the other disciples that He and the Father were one and the same, and beginning to teach them of the Trinity. Remember, this was before His death and resurrection and the disciples really didn't grasp it until after the resurrection. They were still confused about it all. He was letting them know that they had been given a very rare privilege and that they need not worry about committing idolatry, because He was God, He and the Father are One. It's more easily understood when you read the dialog in context there.
Again, Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of God. What does representation mean? Let me quote MacArthur here: The term translated “exact representation” is used only here in the NT. In extrabiblical literature, it was employed for an engraving on wood, an etching in metal, a brand on animal hide, an impression in clay, and a stamped image on coins. The Son is the perfect imprint, the exact representation of the nature and essence of God in time and space (cf. Jn 14:9; Col 1:15; 2:9). The MacArthur study Bible So again we are not talking here about what God looks like physically.
Now let's look at what Rev. says: “and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.” (Revelation 1:13–16) Revelation 1:17 says John fell down as though dead when He saw this in his vision. Notice that John can't really describe what Jesus looks like. Instead of saying He has white hair, He's tall, etc. he keeps saying He "looked like", trying to find something to compare what He looked like that we might be able to understand. He was not saying that Jesus fee were bronze, but that they "looked like" bronze glowing in a furnace, etc. But, we can also tell from the way John worded this, that some of it at least is symbolic and not actual. What Jesus showed Him in this vision was not necessarily what God looks like, but rather what Jesus wanted John to understand from what he was shown. So John too didn't actually see God as God. Instead he saw a vision of what God wanted him to see, but even that was so overwhelming that John couldn't handle it.
The way I look at it is like when we as parents are trying to explain an especially difficult concept to a very young child. We have to use terms and pictures that they can understand to try and get that concept across. Although we tend to think we're pretty intelligent, compared to God, we're more like little toddlers who really don't have a clue. So God tries to explain things in a way that gets His message across to us.
The bottom line is that no one has ever actually seen God in His own form and lived to tell about it. I'd say that Stephen came as close as anyone could, but even he may not have seen Jesus as He really is because if he had, He wouldn't have been able to say a word. He would have been instantly overwhelmed and died. Jesus in His love and mercy, showed Stephen a glimpse of Himself to comfort him and the Holy Spirit gave him the words he spoke to be a witness to Israel one more time, and of course to us as well. Let's look at what the scriptures say: “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”” (Acts 7:55–56) Saying he saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God, was saying to the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah and that He had the right to judge them, as it would have called to their minds the scene of Dan 7:13. By this time, Israel was already under God's judgement for not accepting Jesus as their Messiah, and this let them know that that Judgement was coming and that it would come from Jesus. (it came in full in 70ad). So, as in most things, what Stephen saw was what God allowed him to see. We have to simply believe what all the scripture says though and not just that one line. And we know that scripture teaches that no one can see God and live. That leaves 2 possibilities: Stephen did see God and of course died, or Stephen saw a representation of God (kind of like the transfiguration) just before he died to be a witness. Either way works I suppose, because regardless, Stephen didn't live, he died.
Does that help?Read more: fresh-hope.com/thread/1083/next-study-explaining-contradictions?page=3#ixzz3uWLjJdkJ" You wrote the above to Barbara. That means that people saw an image of God? What couldn't this be Jesus in the human form?
Eva,I posted this the other day for you but you apparently haven't seen it yet, so I'll post it again here:
Eva, is there a reason you can't be here every day? It's getting difficult for me again to keep track of things because you're always behind and therefore are not doing the same lesson as Barbara. It's not like Barbara's going fast either because if she was, we'd be doing a different one every other day and we're obviously not doing that. So this is getting pretty frustrating for me that you can't keep up.
**********
That's all I said two days ago, but want to add here that I simply cannot keep doing this. It's always been like this with you falling further and further behind. You always have excuses for it, and that's fine, but it doesn't help me or Barbara. Even Barbara isn't here every single day, and we don't go very fast, which is why I'm comfortable saying that there is something very wrong here. I understand the language problem, but there's nothing I can do about that.
I think that the only fair way I can continue to do this is to just have you read along as Barbara and I work together and if you have something to say about something that we have posted that day or the day before (not something posted a week ago or longer) then I'll be happy to reply to it. If you think you can be here almost every day, then you can just skip everything else that we've already done and start with whatever we decide to do next. I'll wait till tomorrow to give out the next one, so I'll know what you have decided to do. If you don't come tomorrow, then I'll just have to figure out what to do on my own I guess.
*** Thank you Cindy, Your words will help me for Friday. The tenant I have written about ( who has moved) and who has asked me to have coffee with her for months, has finally settled on coffee this Friday.
She wants to give me a Christmas gift ( I am pretty sure, she mentioned something to that effect earlier), so I agreed. I don't expect do this ever again, but a prayer would be appreciated.
Also on Fri the grandchildren will be going to Calif to see their dad ( tho I will have to go sit at 2 am LOL. so it will be a busy day! |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Dec 19, 2015 1:16:44 GMT -5
Yup that was the one Multi personalities....
and we talked for over 2 hours, and it was basically the same issues that all non-believers trot out, for example:
thinking they are evolved to a higher level.
We were very civil and I was able to quote some scriptures but I think God is going to have to work a miracle with her, because, she has so tightly wrapped herself in sooooo much falseness thinking Like:
she is a pure vessel,
God is one with His creation and she is one with nature etc,
she says she doesn't need to 'words' of God (the Bible), because ( not exactly her words but the idea) she has a direct channel to God and as her child she hears directly from Him
and she believes in a type of magic,
She believes there are some 'absolute truths but also some truths are malleable
She thinks all paths lead to God
(nevertheless.... I was able to explain why Christians (give people the gospel.... it took a long while to explain it was out of love
and that what people did with the gospel was ultimately up to them to make a choice
and she finally said to that
OHHHHH .....well fair enough
She believes in reincarnation
Evolution (not as the start of Creation) but that people can evolve to a better non-violent loving self....which she believes she has done.
Etc etc etc. You already could write almost everything that was said.
But I have to tell you one funny thing ( for me)
She kept saying to me as a "proof" of her beliefs through her 65!!!!! years of personal experiences...and her first painful childhood.
Finally towards the very end I fell for the 'hook'
First when she once again stated her age ( because I clearly ( the implication was) I had not lived as long as she...
what???
I look younger....??? LOL
she does not have one wrinkle... her skin is flawless)
I finally broke down and said I am 70! LOL
And because she used her painful youth over and over to show that she had 'evolved' to a pure righteous vessel....
I shared very briefly that I too suffered a bad violent childhood and made all the same choices she did....
But.... it was when I finally accepted what Jesus did on the cross for me, that I began to be a different person.
To which she replied: there you see....we can 'evolve'... some using one path.... another using a different path
arrrrggghhhhhh
Soooooo much we covered but I left being very very frustrated.
She does want to meet again in a couple of month to show me her new place......
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Post by Cindy on Dec 19, 2015 10:14:39 GMT -5
Yeah, she's going to most likely have to go through some more hard trials before she comes to the Truth. I'm sure you planted seeds though that the lord will be able to use later hon.
I see Eva still hasn't been back, so we'll go on without her.
Carefully read: Matthew 9:18–25; Mark 5:21–43; and Luke 8:40–56.
Note the differences between how this is told:
“While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, “My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.”” (Matthew 9:18)
“and pleaded earnestly with him, “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.”” (Mark 5:23)
“because his only daughter, a girl of about twelve, was dying. As Jesus was on his way, the crowds almost crushed him.” (Luke 8:42)
Matthew says she's already dead, but the other 2 say she was dying. What's the truth and why are they different?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Dec 19, 2015 11:02:57 GMT -5
Thank you so much Cindy for the encouraging words about neighbor.
I pray in fact, the Lords word did plant some seeds.
I need to nap a bit, eat breakfast and start working on new so-called contradiction.
This is not only a good exercise for me, but I was thinking..... how timely it was, in lieu of meeting with this neighbor, who has that liberal new age mind set ( and doesn't need the 'Word of God, which is full of myths and so-called 'contradictions'.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Dec 19, 2015 14:56:32 GMT -5
So I texted her and added some extra comments I forgot about sin.
She texted me back just now,
saying her phone did not have unlimited minutes, and she could not afford to discuss this way . She was trusting God had to have the truth and answers, so she wanted to leave it at that, ok!
So I texted back: ok
I think that means for whatever it is worth, I am done.... and it is now in God's hands...
and whatever few seeds were ( but seems like: were not) planted.
Perhaps someone else will later, be able to water and God will bring the increase....or not....
because I was almost certain yesterday's coffee would go the way it did, and I was pretty sure when I texted her today and mentioned sin again ( she did not want to hear or talk about that part of 'spiritual' things yesterday)
I was again almost certain she would in one way or another, pretty much break off the conversation.
Still, I feel sad she is making the choices she is....I have been there and done that, I have said the same stupid things in the past, and felt 'superior' to the way less intelligent Christians. She has actually said she is a 'genius' so I am pretty sure she thinks I do not have her greater mind.
But more than that, I feel somewhat like I did not represent Jesus very well and that perhaps someone else could have explained things better.
She did tell me a Syrian Christian told her ( after hearing all the things she was into) that if she did not repent but stayed on the path she had chosen, she would go to Hell.
I didn't say anything, but I am thinking he told her the truth and that is sad, even some of my beloved family is the same way.
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Post by evafromgreece on Dec 20, 2015 16:52:08 GMT -5
Eva,I posted this the other day for you but you apparently haven't seen it yet, so I'll post it again here:
Eva, is there a reason you can't be here every day? It's getting difficult for me again to keep track of things because you're always behind and therefore are not doing the same lesson as Barbara. It's not like Barbara's going fast either because if she was, we'd be doing a different one every other day and we're obviously not doing that. So this is getting pretty frustrating for me that you can't keep up.
**********
That's all I said two days ago, but want to add here that I simply cannot keep doing this. It's always been like this with you falling further and further behind. You always have excuses for it, and that's fine, but it doesn't help me or Barbara. Even Barbara isn't here every single day, and we don't go very fast, which is why I'm comfortable saying that there is something very wrong here. I understand the language problem, but there's nothing I can do about that.
I think that the only fair way I can continue to do this is to just have you read along as Barbara and I work together and if you have something to say about something that we have posted that day or the day before (not something posted a week ago or longer) then I'll be happy to reply to it. If you think you can be here almost every day, then you can just skip everything else that we've already done and start with whatever we decide to do next. I'll wait till tomorrow to give out the next one, so I'll know what you have decided to do. If you don't come tomorrow, then I'll just have to figure out what to do on my own I guess. Hello everyone. Yes there is a reason for not being here every day. I work extra hours this period because of Christmas. I am working even on Sundays and sometimes I don't even turn on my computer. Please Cindy explain to me something, because I don't really understand the word excuses you used. I want to know what you mean. You wrote: "You always have excuses for it", you mean that I have reasons, or that I use reasons to tell that are not that serious lets say. I want you please to explain what you mean in order to understand. I face 2 things that make me left behind at times. Be sick or work more. The language barrier is a thing that make me sometimes unable to understand things easily and stuck on things and be slow, but that's another issue. As long as I am not helping the study to go on, I can come here, read and I can be silent in order to let you go on faster and that's it. |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Dec 21, 2015 15:07:58 GMT -5
I must admit I am somewhat stumped on this latest one. I can see reasons why the dad may have said either one. In Luke when he said she was dying, it 'seems' pretty clear she was taking her very last breaths.
This is very different from the dying of Jesus friend Lazarus, who when Jesus heard he was dying, Jesus knew it would be a couple of days before Lazarus died.
But with this man's daughter her death was just a few breaths away. When the father left her side, he knew she was moments away from death so when he saw Jesus he knew she was dead by then.
However, I still haven't solved which he said, she is dying, or she is dead. One thought is if I knew the language, it perhaps might be the word for dying and dead, could be interchangeably, in the case that death was inevitable? However, I don't have that kind of Bible.
Maybe you can give me a hint?
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Post by Cindy on Dec 23, 2015 11:49:59 GMT -5
Thank you so much Cindy for the encouraging words about neighbor.
I pray in fact, the Lords word did plant some seeds.
I need to nap a bit, eat breakfast and start working on new so-called contradiction.
This is not only a good exercise for me, but I was thinking..... how timely it was, in lieu of meeting with this neighbor, who has that liberal new age mind set ( and doesn't need the 'Word of God, which is full of myths and so-called 'contradictions'. So I texted her and added some extra comments I forgot about sin.
She texted me back just now,
saying her phone did not have unlimited minutes, and she could not afford to discuss this way . She was trusting God had to have the truth and answers, so she wanted to leave it at that, ok!
So I texted back: ok
I think that means for whatever it is worth, I am done.... and it is now in God's hands...
and whatever few seeds were ( but seems like: were not) planted.
Perhaps someone else will later, be able to water and God will bring the increase....or not....
because I was almost certain yesterday's coffee would go the way it did, and I was pretty sure when I texted her today and mentioned sin again ( she did not want to hear or talk about that part of 'spiritual' things yesterday)
I was again almost certain she would in one way or another, pretty much break off the conversation.
Still, I feel sad she is making the choices she is....I have been there and done that, I have said the same stupid things in the past, and felt 'superior' to the way less intelligent Christians. She has actually said she is a 'genius' so I am pretty sure she thinks I do not have her greater mind.
But more than that, I feel somewhat like I did not represent Jesus very well and that perhaps someone else could have explained things better.
She did tell me a Syrian Christian told her ( after hearing all the things she was into) that if she did not repent but stayed on the path she had chosen, she would go to Hell.
I didn't say anything, but I am thinking he told her the truth and that is sad, even some of my beloved family is the same way.
Eva,I posted this the other day for you but you apparently haven't seen it yet, so I'll post it again here:
Eva, is there a reason you can't be here every day? It's getting difficult for me again to keep track of things because you're always behind and therefore are not doing the same lesson as Barbara. It's not like Barbara's going fast either because if she was, we'd be doing a different one every other day and we're obviously not doing that. So this is getting pretty frustrating for me that you can't keep up.
**********
That's all I said two days ago, but want to add here that I simply cannot keep doing this. It's always been like this with you falling further and further behind. You always have excuses for it, and that's fine, but it doesn't help me or Barbara. Even Barbara isn't here every single day, and we don't go very fast, which is why I'm comfortable saying that there is something very wrong here. I understand the language problem, but there's nothing I can do about that.
I think that the only fair way I can continue to do this is to just have you read along as Barbara and I work together and if you have something to say about something that we have posted that day or the day before (not something posted a week ago or longer) then I'll be happy to reply to it. If you think you can be here almost every day, then you can just skip everything else that we've already done and start with whatever we decide to do next. I'll wait till tomorrow to give out the next one, so I'll know what you have decided to do. If you don't come tomorrow, then I'll just have to figure out what to do on my own I guess. Hello everyone. Yes there is a reason for not being here every day. I work extra hours this period because of Christmas. I am working even on Sundays and sometimes I don't even turn on my computer. Please Cindy explain to me something, because I don't really understand the word excuses you used. I want to know what you mean. You wrote: "You always have excuses for it", you mean that I have reasons, or that I use reasons to tell that are not that serious lets say. I want you please to explain what you mean in order to understand. I face 2 things that make me left behind at times. Be sick or work more. The language barrier is a thing that make me sometimes unable to understand things easily and stuck on things and be slow, but that's another issue. As long as I am not helping the study to go on, I can come here, read and I can be silent in order to let you go on faster and that's it. I must admit I am somewhat stumped on this latest one. I can see reasons why the dad may have said either one. In Luke when he said she was dying, it 'seems' pretty clear she was taking her very last breaths.
This is very different from the dying of Jesus friend Lazarus, who when Jesus heard he was dying, Jesus knew it would be a couple of days before Lazarus died.
But with this man's daughter her death was just a few breaths away. When the father left her side, he knew she was moments away from death so when he saw Jesus he knew she was dead by then.
However, I still haven't solved which he said, she is dying, or she is dead. One thought is if I knew the language, it perhaps might be the word for dying and dead, could be interchangeably, in the case that death was inevitable? However, I don't have that kind of Bible.
Maybe you can give me a hint?
Picture yourself with the disciples, walking with Jesus while all these people are crowded around all of you. A man comes up and begs Jesus to heal his daughter....a woman touches him hoping to be healed, and Jesus actually stops and wants to know who touched Him! You and the other disciples can't believe He'd ask such a thing what with all the people that are crowded around you, bumping into each other, all of you disciples, and even Jesus Himself, and He wants to know who touched Him??? The man who asked healing for his daughter must be going out of his mind with worry and be terribly frustrated over the time that's passing by while Jesus waits to find out who touched Him. That's as far as I'm going to go. What you need to do now is go back and read the whole story in all 3 gospels, imagining yourself in the scene as you read. At the same time, put yourself in the father's shoes and what he must be feeling as the story plays out. Here's the assignment again so you'll know what scriptures to read:
Carefully read the entire story in each gospel: Matthew 9:18–25; Mark 5:21–43; and Luke 8:40–56.
Note the differences between how this is told:
“While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, “My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.”” (Matthew 9:18)
“and pleaded earnestly with him, “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.”” (Mark 5:23)
“because his only daughter, a girl of about twelve, was dying. As Jesus was on his way, the crowds almost crushed him.” (Luke 8:42)
Matthew says she's already dead, but the other 2 say she was dying. What's the truth and why are they different?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Dec 24, 2015 15:42:25 GMT -5
I read them all now. Before I didn't really read about the woman with the issue of blood, because I was so focused on the two seemingly ( at first) totally opposite statements of the father. The woman with the issue of blood, seemed like a 'bother'.
But you really pretty much explained it, I am thinking.
The two apostles actually heard the dad say his daughter was dying and she was in fact dying right then.
However, the woman with the issue of blood did in fact, interrupt Jesus dealing the father and with the dying girl.
But in Mark 5:35 The father is told by people from his house, that his daughter has died.
"While Jesus was still speaking, some people came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. “Your daughter is dead,” they said. “Why bother the teacher anymore?”
So when Jesus was finished healing the woman with the issue of blood, the father told Jesus his daughter had died. ( Actually later when Jesus goes to the man's home he tells the mourners to stop wailing the girl has not died but is asleep.)
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Dec 24, 2015 16:01:26 GMT -5
I do want to apologize to you (Cindy and to God) because the issue about excuses and reason has to do with me as well.
I am not referring to Eva, just my own excuses.
In fact, concerning our bible study, Cindy, you (perhaps without knowing) keep me somewhat accountable, but even so I am prone to using 'excuses..
But my worst use of excuses, is with the Lord and reading the Bible. One excuse, I often use is the inter-library loaned books I am reading.
They are not like ordinary books from our small town library...(our library policy is we are allowed to renew a book one time), but because the librarians know us so well, we have sometimes been able to renew a book 2 and even 3 times.
Not so with inter-library loans...they must go back on the date they have allowed...period ( and if it cost our library money to get them to us well.....)
So, I have often reasoned, I "HAVE" to read my Christian fiction book INSTEAD of my Bible...(which I 'reason', is always around and so I can read it at any time)!
But my 'reason', is an 'excuse', both in fact and in truth,.....
because, I could get up earlier and read my Bible,
go to bed later and read my Bible,
not be surfing the net for a lot of questionable things etc.
So I am glad this issue of excuses vs reasons, came up because it was another way of keeping me accountable to the Lord.
So Thank you both!!!
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Post by Cindy on Dec 26, 2015 9:55:37 GMT -5
I read them all now. Before I didn't really read about the woman with the issue of blood, because I was so focused on the two seemingly ( at first) totally opposite statements of the father. The woman with the issue of blood, seemed like a 'bother'.
But you really pretty much explained it, I am thinking.
The two apostles actually heard the dad say his daughter was dying and she was in fact dying right then.
However, the woman with the issue of blood did in fact, interrupt Jesus dealing the father and with the dying girl.
But in Mark 5:35 The father is told by people from his house, that his daughter has died.
"While Jesus was still speaking, some people came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. “Your daughter is dead,” they said. “Why bother the teacher anymore?”
So when Jesus was finished healing the woman with the issue of blood, the father told Jesus his daughter had died. ( Actually later when Jesus goes to the man's home he tells the mourners to stop wailing the girl has not died but is asleep.) I do want to apologize to you (Cindy and to God) because the issue about excuses and reason has to do with me as well.
I am not referring to Eva, just my own excuses.
In fact, concerning our bible study, Cindy, you (perhaps without knowing) keep me somewhat accountable, but even so I am prone to using 'excuses..
But my worst use of excuses, is with the Lord and reading the Bible. One excuse, I often use is the inter-library loaned books I am reading.
They are not like ordinary books from our small town library...(our library policy is we are allowed to renew a book one time), but because the librarians know us so well, we have sometimes been able to renew a book 2 and even 3 times.
Not so with inter-library loans...they must go back on the date they have allowed...period ( and if it cost our library money to get them to us well.....)
So, I have often reasoned, I "HAVE" to read my Christian fiction book INSTEAD of my Bible...(which I 'reason', is always around and so I can read it at any time)!
But my 'reason', is an 'excuse', both in fact and in truth,.....
because, I could get up earlier and read my Bible,
go to bed later and read my Bible,
not be surfing the net for a lot of questionable things etc.
So I am glad this issue of excuses vs reasons, came up because it was another way of keeping me accountable to the Lord.
So Thank you both!!!
As far as holding you accountable goes though, you do the same for me really. I can't skimp because I know I have to be on top of it for you guys lol So it all works out in the long run.
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Post by Cindy on Dec 26, 2015 9:56:36 GMT -5
I'll try to get back to you tomorrow about what we'll do next, but need a day or two to unwind and rest...although that's not going to happen today as there's way too much to do at my house. Ah well, it's always something it seems...
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Post by Cindy on Dec 28, 2015 13:36:28 GMT -5
Eva, I hope you realize that I do want you to participate, I just can't have you always behind. So if you'll come and do this with us, we would love to have you!
Barbara and Eva, OK, here's the next one:
Does the earth abide forever or not? The first two scriptures says it does, and the last two says it doesn't. Which is true or are both true? Is this a contradiction or does it just seem to be one?
(Psalm 104:5)--"He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever."
(Ecclesiastes 1:4)--"A generation goes and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever."
(Isaiah 65:17)--"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind."
(2 Peter 3:10)--"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up."
The only hint I'll give you is that this again is all about context.....
Have fun!
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To me, the whole point of this is not just to answer a question, but to get better and better at doing so. I learn from what you guys say and hope that by my pointing things out like this, that you guys can get better too. 
!!
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