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Post by Cindy on Aug 29, 2015 9:27:42 GMT -5
In this study we're going to learn how to discover the truth when there is an apparent contradiction in the Bible. I say, "apparent" because the bible never really contradicts itself, and will always explain itself. If you don't remember how to find the answers, please see the article on How to Study & Understand the Bible as I have shown an example of this in there.
The first so called contradiction we will study is about whether or not children pay for the sins of their parents. The verses I am speaking about are:
“You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.” (Exodus 20:5–6) as well as Deuteronomy 5:9 which repeats the same thing. Then there is “And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:6–7)
Next there is:
“Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16) and “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.” (Ezekiel 18:20) and “God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”” (Romans 2:6)
You are not limited to just using these verses. I'm only giving you these so you can see the apparent contradiction. You need to show me what God means by these verses and how they do not contradict each other. You are to write this the same way you would explain it to a friend who asked you about it.
Hints: Remember to read everything in context and check the article on How to read and understand the bible for an example of how to do this!
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Post by evafromgreece on Sept 4, 2015 14:20:25 GMT -5
This is quite challenging I would say!
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Post by evafromgreece on Sept 4, 2015 14:51:56 GMT -5
Do we have to write specific number of words or something?
I would add also verses from the OT, when the life of Kings in Israel was described, and it says in many places that kings that have honored God were not in trouble but sinners and people who showed disobedience where in actual trouble. I haven't seen anyone being in trouble for something that his father did in that period.
What I believe it says in the following verse:
“You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.” (Exodus 20:5–6), is that when a parent teaches his children to follow false Gods and they do, they will face the consequence of that sin. They will be punished for their own sin not for the sin of the parent. But the parent has done much damage in them. He sinned for himself and he taught sin also to them. This reminds me mostly of 2 Corinthians 6:14, the known "do not be yoked with unbelievers"... An unbeliever would not stand his child as a believer and he would do anything he can to see his child follow the master he has, who unfortunately is Satan. But, of course we do not learn only from our family, and God has known us long before our creation, He selected us. And despite parents who don't believe, we can be saved and the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is cleaning us from our sins. So indeed "God will give to each person according to what he has done.”” (Romans 2:6), and there is not a contradiction there
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Post by Cindy on Sept 7, 2015 11:07:28 GMT -5
While I appreciate you starting to work on this Eva, you were not supposed to do it until after you had finished your notebook and we had discussed your notebook. So let's concentrate on that first, and then we can come back to this.
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Post by Cindy on Nov 6, 2015 11:16:21 GMT -5
You did a good job on that Eva. I know it's difficult for you what with the difference in language, but I can tell from what you've written that you have the basics of it. The only thing I would have a problem with is what you said about no one in the OT paying for the sins of their parents, as I can think of any number of times that happens, or at least appears to happen. How about when David committed adultery and Bathsheba got pregnant from it, and the baby died? How about all the children of the pagans that God told Israel to kill? Most people would say that it was unfair to kill the children and especially the babies so it would look like they were punished for their parents sins. How would you answer if someone brought things like that up to you?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383 
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Post by fearnot on Nov 7, 2015 21:30:17 GMT -5
I think I would point out that sin has consequences, and sin has a tendency to spread. So if a child is raised in a home where God is hated many children would adopt the same attitudes of hating the Lord and would in that sense have to pay for the sins of their fathers if they continue in hating God when they reach the age of accountability. But on the other hand, they would be accountable for their very own sin.
As for David's child the sad fact is that sin has terrible consequences, not all babies die as result of adultery and murder, but I wonder if because David was King he was judged more strictly and held to a higher standard?
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Post by evafromgreece on Nov 8, 2015 3:03:08 GMT -5
You did a good job on that Eva. I know it's difficult for you what with the difference in language, but I can tell from what you've written that you have the basics of it. The only thing I would have a problem with is what you said about no one in the OT paying for the sins of their parents, as I can think of any number of times that happens, or at least appears to happen. How about when David committed adultery and Bathsheba got pregnant from it, and the baby died? How about all the children of the pagans that God told Israel to kill? Most people would say that it was unfair to kill the children and especially the babies so it would look like they were punished for their parents sins. How would you answer if someone brought things like that up to you? Oh! Yes you are right.Those kids were indeed punished for their parents sins. Can this also happen today? Lets say a man sin and his kid born handicapped or die in the birth? As for my reaction about if this is unfair. I don't have an answer. I have to think. Can you give me some hints to find it? Also... By the way. I am sick AGAIN! :( Now I have a cold or something, running nose. Itching throat. But it haven't passed a week since I stopped meds for the previous thing. :( |
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Post by Cindy on Nov 8, 2015 12:25:42 GMT -5
Yes, it happens today, but NO, the Lord is NOT punishing the children for their parents sins, it only looks like it to those who don't understand. He does not do that. We are each only responsible for our own sins, but then everyone has sinned, including children and babies. Read the scriptures I posted about this again, then check out the following ones which will tell you about the instances I told you about:
Deuteronomy 7:2
Deuteronomy 20:16–17
Joshua 10:28
Joshua 11:11–14
2 Samuel 12:13–25
But then you need to explain how it can be true that we do not pay for someone elses sins but only our own.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Nov 9, 2015 19:22:03 GMT -5
I think, children (even babies) are by nature sinners, if they have parents who are unbelievers who hate God, the children have 2 strikes against them.
Children won't seek after God
"“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God."
And children often imitate their parents.
Sin is basically contagious, so quite often they will adopt many of the sins of their parents, to the degree they follow in the footsteps of the same sins as their parents, they will eventually ( if they don't repent and turn to the Lord) suffer the same consequences and must pay the same payment for the same sins of their parents.
But when they reach the age of accountability having made the choice to sin like their parents, the payment they must pay is a result of their own choice for what is now their sins.
2 Kings 14:6
"....."Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin"
Deuteronomy 24:6
"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."
Ezekiel 18:20
"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them."
Ezekiel 18:4
"For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die."
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Nov 10, 2015 13:26:34 GMT -5
Oh I thought of one more thing....
since Adam and Eve's sin all people in a sense are paying for the sin of their first parents ever.
So many people think, well I would not have made the choice Adam and Eve did, but that is not true.
Adam and Eve had never sinned ( until they did) so they were the very very best representatives for the human race. When people say they would not have made the same disastrous choice, they are using 'hind sight'.....they all ready know the consequences. Yes Adam and Eve had been told about death but they had never seen death and so on.
So now we are all born with a sin nature, and from that stand point we are paying for our parents sin, but we all of us, every last person on earth chooses to sin, and so we pay for our own sins and not our parents sin. ( no???)
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Post by Cindy on Nov 10, 2015 14:20:35 GMT -5
I think, children (even babies) are by nature sinners, if they have parents who are unbelievers who hate God, the children have 2 strikes against them.
Children won't seek after God
"“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God."
And children often imitate their parents.
Sin is basically contagious, so quite often they will adopt many of the sins of their parents, to the degree they follow in the footsteps of the same sins as their parents, they will eventually ( if they don't repent and turn to the Lord) suffer the same consequences and must pay the same payment for the same sins of their parents.
But when they reach the age of accountability having made the choice to sin like their parents, the payment they must pay is a result of their own choice for what is now their sins.
2 Kings 14:6
"....."Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin"
Deuteronomy 24:6
"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."
Ezekiel 18:20
"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them."
Ezekiel 18:4
"For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die."
As for the explanation itself, you did a very good job! The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that someone might try to exploit would be asking you to show how a baby could sin. Could you answer that if someone asked? Oh I thought of one more thing....
since Adam and Eve's sin all people in a sense are paying for the sin of their first parents ever.
So many people think, well I would not have made the choice Adam and Eve did, but that is not true.
Adam and Eve had never sinned ( until they did) so they were the very very best representatives for the human race. When people say they would not have made the same disastrous choice, they are using 'hind sight'.....they all ready know the consequences. Yes Adam and Eve had been told about death but they had never seen death and so on.
So now we are all born with a sin nature, and from that stand point we are paying for our parents sin, but we all of us, every last person on earth chooses to sin, and so we pay for our own sins and not our parents sin. ( no???)
It seems like you're talking about "headship" and trying to explain why we all have a sin nature using both that and the "genetic" principal of it combined. We discussed how the sin nature came about a lot in our studies of thoughts, emotions, etc and while we discussed the federal headship part at one time, I think I explained it in an entirely other way too that would make a whole lot more sense to unbelievers. Let me quote from Got Questions about federal headship so you know what I'm talking about for sure:
The theological principle of a man representing his descendants is called “federal headship.” Adam was the first created human being. He stood at the “head” of the human race. He was placed in the garden to act not only for himself but for all his progeny. Every person ever born was already “in Adam,” represented by him. The concept of federal headship is clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture: “One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him” (Hebrews 7:9-10, ESV). Levi was born several centuries after Abraham lived, yet Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek “through Abraham.” Abraham was the federal head of the Jewish people, and his actions represented the future twelve tribes and the Levitical priesthood.
“I did not eat the fruit.” True, but all sin has consequences beyond the initial wrongdoing. “No man is an island, entire of itself,” John Donne famously wrote. This truth can be applied spiritually. David’s sin with Bathsheba affected David, of course, but it also had a ripple effect that affected Uriah, David’s unborn child, the rest of David’s family, the whole nation, and even Israel’s enemies (2 Samuel 12:9-14). Sin always has undesirable effects on those around us. The ripples of Adam’s momentous sin are still being felt.
www.gotquestions.org/I-did-not-eat-the-fruit.html
Now, about the sin nature in general:
Where did the sin nature come from? Scripture says that God created humans good and without a sinful nature: “God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them” (Genesis 1:27). However, Genesis 3 records the disobedience of Adam and Eve. By that one action, sin entered into their nature. They were immediately smitten with a sense of shame and unfitness, and they hid from God’s presence (Genesis 3:8). When they had children, Adam’s image and likeness was passed along to his offspring (Genesis 5:3). The sin nature manifested itself early in the genealogy: the very first child born to Adam and Eve, Cain, became the very first murderer (Genesis 4:8).
From generation to generation, the sin nature was passed down to all of humanity: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). This verse also presents the unsettling truth that the sin nature leads inexorably to death (see also Romans 6:23a and Ephesians 2:1).
www.gotquestions.org/sin-nature.html
Now, having read this last part, do you remember how I explained how we came to have a sin nature? The reason behind it? We discussed this a number of times and again when we studied The Fall... what actually happened and how it affects us. Remember? Remember, we're learning how to explain apparent contradictions in the bible to people who don't have a good understanding of His Word, so we need to keep things as simple as possible and make them as clear as we possibly can too. We need to show them that we're not speaking about just what we think or believe, but rather we're telling them what God says.
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Post by evafromgreece on Nov 11, 2015 18:09:54 GMT -5
Hello guys. I have limited internet access. I managed to get some days off work found a cheap flight and flew to Thessaloniki. I will be here till Monday.
I am realm upset... I know a woman here long before I left the town. She's around 65 the mother of an old friend. I have spoken to her about the Lord. Today we managed to go to the local church together for the first time. I remember always that people there were cold as ice. I used to live next door and went there. Worse than the church in the island. Lived next at the next building of pastors house. They were able to see my balcony. But they never knew me... And when I stopped going there they only consider to keep me quiet when I had some fights with my father. I have forgotten this. But...
Ok I wanted to go with this woman to a church and since it was the only one available and this was our chance... Ah! They were talking about some chapters in Revelation. Of course the woman didn't understand anything. Even worse nobody cared about who we were and what we were doing there. Not even a typical hello and God Bless at the end. At least in Rhodes we do this! Ok I lost the game. :'( Probably they are not interested in spreading the gospel to the non Christians... Almost want to cry
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Post by Cindy on Nov 12, 2015 11:42:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience Eva. Did you read my reply to you about the study you did?
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Post by evafromgreece on Nov 12, 2015 12:40:34 GMT -5
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience Eva. Did you read my reply to you about the study you did? Yes I did. But I will reply as soon as I get home from my computer and with internet access :) |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Nov 12, 2015 21:00:40 GMT -5
Yes I was speaking about the headship....
but I sort of forgot we were explaining it to someone who knew nothing about the Bible.
And so, because I was just 'explaining' it, I vaguely remembered awhile back I was explaining something, and it was not correct, but I had started it like a fact, and you said it would be better to word it "I think" so if someone was reading it on FH they would not think it was in fact, fact, but my thoughts, opinions etc.
So since I was not certain and I forgot I supposed to be explaining it to someone who didn't know the Bible but rather I was explaining to you and Eva so I said: " I think" but I do understand what you are saying thank you soooo much!!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Nov 12, 2015 21:45:05 GMT -5
Sorry I was so late in replying. I went to see the neurosurgeon in the city which is a 2 plus hour drive ( 4 or 5 hours round trip). Then the doctor was late of course about an hour and a half etc. I am still tired.
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Post by Cindy on Nov 13, 2015 10:54:34 GMT -5
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience Eva. Did you read my reply to you about the study you did? Yes I did. But I will reply as soon as I get home from my computer and with internet access :) Yes I was speaking about the headship....
but I sort of forgot we were explaining it to someone who knew nothing about the Bible.
And so, because I was just 'explaining' it, I vaguely remembered awhile back I was explaining something, and it was not correct, but I had started it like a fact, and you said it would be better to word it "I think" so if someone was reading it on FH they would not think it was in fact, fact, but my thoughts, opinions etc.
So since I was not certain and I forgot I supposed to be explaining it to someone who didn't know the Bible but rather I was explaining to you and Eva so I said: " I think" but I do understand what you are saying thank you soooo much!!
So now, can you please reply to my question about whether or not you remember the way this was explained? I'll give you a hint: in got questions it says that Adam's image and likeness was passed on to his children, and this is what we discussed...in what way was Adam's likeness now different then it was when God created him? (as that's what was passed on to his children)Sorry I was so late in replying. I went to see the neurosurgeon in the city which is a 2 plus hour drive ( 4 or 5 hours round trip). Then the doctor was late of course about an hour and a half etc. I am still tired.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Nov 13, 2015 15:39:34 GMT -5
I do not remember how you explained it....
but 'I think' ....the difference of Adam's image when he was first created and how he was
(and what he passed on to all other people who came after him)
was initially he was created without sin, he was innocent and blameless,
but then he sinned,
and sin was passed on to every single descendant thereafter.
 Oh well, and here I thought this would be something that would be written in big bold letters in your hearts. I sure hope you put it in your notebooks this time then. Actually I'm shocked I didn't add it to your notebooks myself, but I probably thought it was so well understood that it wasn't needed. I still can't believe you don't remember this....maybe your mind just isn't cooperating with you today or something, like mine does at times... OK. First let me quote something from Got Questions in the hopes that the first sentence might jog your memory:
As a result of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. Because of man’s sinful nature, he does not and cannot seek God. He has no desire to come to God and, in fact, his mind is hostile toward God. www.gotquestions.org/true-gospel.html
Does it job your memory? I hate telling you this because I really, really want you to already know it. Think about what happened in the garden when Adam sinned. You spoke of "theology" and I'm not talking about theology, I'm talking about what actually happened. What did Eve and then Adam do? More importantly, what happened to them when they did it?
Satan told Eve she could eat from the tree of knowledge of what? Good and evil! Adam and Eve were not the evolutionist idea of cavemen; they were sophisticated, mature, intelligent people. They were intelligent enough that God enjoyed speaking with them and fellowshipping with them daily. They already had "the knowledge of good" at that time. What the fruit offered though then was the knowledge of good, combined with the knowledge of evil. Up until then, neither of them had any knowledge or desire for the knowledge of evil. Before they sinned, their minds, wills, and emotions (as well as their flesh) were pure and good. There was no evil at all. Then came the sin and what happened? What happened to their minds, will, and emotions??? What happened to them at that point is why God tells us not to trust our thoughts or emotions and why we have to take our thoughts captive and make them obedient to Christ. Are you starting to remember now? When they sinned, they became knowledgeable of evil, and that knowledge corrupted their minds and hearts - their thoughts and emotions. Now, if their thoughts and emotions are corrupted, how would that affect their children? Everything they told their children would be corrupted by that knowledge of evil; and everything their children thought and felt would be corrupted further and all they told their children would be corrupted and on down the line it would go.
Don't you think explaining it this way would make a lot more sense to an unbeliever? It sure makes a lot more sense to me! It explains the "theology" without getting into all the "theology" and headship etc. Although if the person you were speaking to had some knowledge of that you could certainly then include the headship part.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Nov 14, 2015 21:42:01 GMT -5
I am confused because I thought that was what I basically said?
I didn't say it as clearly as you for sure...
but then you said I was talking about headship and explained what headship was, so I agreed you were right.
I was answering several questions so I don't think I wrote my answers orderly
But I did say: "Adam and Eve had never sinned ( until they did)
I also said speaking of Adam that he: "was initially he was created without sin, he was innocent and blameless,
but then he sinned,
and sin was passed on to every single descendant thereafter.
and also
"children (even babies) are by nature sinners,"
I didn't understand you wanted me to talk about the actual happening in the Garden of Eden. I certainly didn't mean to talk about theology.
It may have come across that way but in my mind I was speaking about a real Adam and Eve.
I was trying to explain why there seems to be a contradiction about children paying for the sins of their parents, and everyone pays for their own sin only.
But also why God is not being unfair when a baby such as David's child died as a result of David's sin etc.
I used the word headship because you said that was what I was actually talking about.
And I said I didn't remember how Adam's image change was explained because I didn't totally understand what you were asking. Now I think you meant how it was explained in the Bible but I was thinking you meant how did you explain it from our Bible study or in our journal.
I am really sorry I disappointed you. I just hate that I disappointed you. I am leery to answer again cuz it sounds like I didn't care enough about you to pay attention to something so important. But I felt I should be honest, because I truly was confused as to what exactly was the question you were asking. I am really sorry.
I find everything you say is wonderful and opens scripture up for me in ways I never knew before.
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Post by Cindy on Nov 15, 2015 9:05:29 GMT -5
I probably shouldn't post because I'm not even really awake yet, but I don't like to hear you talk like that. If you go back and read what all my posts said, you'll see I wasn't even answering the question about the controversy anymore. I was trying to straighten out what you said about it because what you said didn't make any sense. Instead it sounded like you were saying that children did pay for their parents sins but it was ok because it was called something else, and that's not true. So I wanted to remind you of what really happened in the garden to make sure you understood it because it sure sounded like you didn't. Yes, you said Adam sinned, but that wasn't what I was asking you about. Now I'm confused too because I sure didn't see anywhere where you explained about their thoughts and emotions becoming corrupted. If you can find it and quote it here, I'd sure appreciate it, because I can't find it anywhere.
The reason this is important to explain the contradiction is because it shows that although it appears that the children are paying for their parents sins, they are not, they're paying for their own sins because their own thoughts and emotions have been corrupted since the moment they were born.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Nov 15, 2015 16:53:30 GMT -5
No you are right I didn't say their thoughts and emotions were corrupted when they sinned because I just thought that was part of what being a sinner was....so I wasn't explaining it well.
Its like you said, what I said didn't make sense.
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Post by Cindy on Nov 16, 2015 11:59:20 GMT -5
You just made my whole day...no my whole year! LOL Seriously, when you said you just thought "that's what a sinner was" that a sinner was someone who's thoughts and emotions were corrupted, I'd have jumped for joy if I could have! So you see, we both misunderstood! You were saying that all along, but I didn't know you were saying that! And unfortunately, no one else would either since 99% of people have no idea that's what happened in the Fall. Just goes to show how we need to be very clear when talking with others I guess.
BUT, remember, your first reply, when you originally rebutted the supposed contradiction, you did an excellent job! It was only your "addition" later that wound up causing problems.So please don't look on this like you failed, because you didn't. You did a fantastic job. I think what we need to learn from your addition is that we should keep things as simple as possible when explaining these contradictions to others, and not try and go deeper unless they ask more questions about it. If they do, then it might help if you explain about what really happened to our thoughts and emotions at the Fall. If they have some knowledge of the Bible, then perhaps you could also explain headship to them, but again, I'd do that at another time, not right away as it can just confuse things when we give them too much information at first. Headship can actually be used to explain any number of things, but it isn't really necessary for someone who doesn't know the bible to understand it right away, as they can all be explained other ways as well that are easier to understand.
However, I understand that you were just letting me know that you understood about headship and could explain it. I think though that you just tried to explain it too quickly and that's why it got mixed up and didn't make sense. I know how hard it can be to think and to write when you're in pain and/or tired.
So let's go on to another one for you anyway.
Has man ever seen God or can a person ever see God? Can God be seen face to face (Genesis 32:30; Exodus 33:11) or not (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 1 John 4:12)? Show why these verses do not contradict each other.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Nov 16, 2015 14:33:20 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy you really helped me. I have always had a problem of talking or saying to much and it does confuse people especially if I am wrong!
Just like you helped me keep it short and simple with my neighbor, when I was ready to launch in a 100 page dissertation!
I wonder just one more question about the previous contradiction before getting into the new one.
Should I have explained the definition of sin?
Since we were trying to explain the verses about children paying for their father's sins and people only pay for their own sin.
I am wondering if we ( I) should first explain what sin is?Or is that what you were saying?
I am not sure why my mind is a muddle these days? It can't be my meds as I have cut back on almost all of them.
The only thing I can think of is our daughter's work schedule is the craziest its ever been with lots of her going to work at 3 in the morn but the next day at 2:30 in the afternoon, the 10 in the morn back to 5AM etc.
However, relief 'may' be in the works our granddaughter may take up some slack, but I am not holding my breath as to how long she will be sitting instead of being with friends?
Anyway, sorry to get off subject, but my mind seems a bit sleepy, like I am missing a lot of what you say.
I will now try to think of a way to answer the next question clearly but succinctly and concise but hopefully correctly!
I will try to focus better!!!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Nov 16, 2015 19:50:37 GMT -5
Okay I am going to try to explain this first as short as I can. Then if you feel I should expand or add more scriptures etc. I will try to do so.
First, God is one God but 3 persons. (This is a difficult/impossible concept to understand because we are not God). The three persons of God are God the Father, God the Son ( Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit.
No one may see God the Father, nor have any people seen God the Holy Spirit.
However, people have seen God the Son ( Jesus).
Jesus even appeared to some people before He was born on earth in the flesh.
In face, He appeared all the way back in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve "heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden...." Genesis 3:8
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Post by Cindy on Nov 17, 2015 13:49:57 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy you really helped me. I have always had a problem of talking or saying to much and it does confuse people especially if I am wrong!
Just like you helped me keep it short and simple with my neighbor, when I was ready to launch in a 100 page dissertation!
I wonder just one more question about the previous contradiction before getting into the new one.
Should I have explained the definition of sin?
Since we were trying to explain the verses about children paying for their father's sins and people only pay for their own sin.
I am wondering if we ( I) should first explain what sin is?Or is that what you were saying?
I am not sure why my mind is a muddle these days? It can't be my meds as I have cut back on almost all of them.
The only thing I can think of is our daughter's work schedule is the craziest its ever been with lots of her going to work at 3 in the morn but the next day at 2:30 in the afternoon, the 10 in the morn back to 5AM etc.
However, relief 'may' be in the works our granddaughter may take up some slack, but I am not holding my breath as to how long she will be sitting instead of being with friends?
Anyway, sorry to get off subject, but my mind seems a bit sleepy, like I am missing a lot of what you say.
I will now try to think of a way to answer the next question clearly but succinctly and concise but hopefully correctly!
I will try to focus better!!! Okay I am going to try to explain this first as short as I can. Then if you feel I should expand or add more scriptures etc. I will try to do so.
First, God is one God but 3 persons. (This is a difficult/impossible concept to understand because we are not God). The three persons of God are God the Father, God the Son ( Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit.
No one may see God the Father, nor have any people seen God the Holy Spirit.
However, people have seen God the Son ( Jesus).
Jesus even appeared to some people before He was born on earth in the flesh.
In face, He appeared all the way back in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve "heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden...." Genesis 3:8
Wow, that's certainly a very different way of looking at it. Sadly it's not quite true though, for no one ever saw Jesus in His True form, (think Revelation 1:13–17) only in human flesh. Even the transfiguration didn't show Him in all His glory. So that doesn't work to answer this one, sorry hon. But it was a very good and original try at it! I liked the one scripture you gave too, but if you look closely at that scripture, it doesn't say they "saw" God.... Here's another verse for you: “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong.” (Habakkuk 1:13)
You need to look closely at the verses I gave you, especially Exodus 33:11 and Exodus 33:20 to start with. Those are very close together and do sound like they're saying the opposite thing, but they're not. You'll need to look closely and read them in context to see why they're not the opposite. There are many more verses that show how terrified people were when they thought they'd seen God. But at the same time, we know that the Angel of the Lord in the OT, was in fact Jesus, so we know that people "saw" God and didn't even know it. They thought they'd seen an angel which was more then terrifying enough for them. Ok, that's enough hints lol. Have fun hunting and don't forget to ask the Lord's help!
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Post by evafromgreece on Nov 17, 2015 15:09:28 GMT -5
When we take the example of David who committed adultery and Bathsheba got pregnant from it, and the baby died, it seems like the kid paid for Davids sin. But, every human being has a purpose to fulfill, God has a plan. So that kid's purpose was to show and remind David of the consequence of sin and to make him consider to get back and have a relationship with the Lord. When the kid fulfilled its purpose it died. You did a good job on that Eva. I know it's difficult for you what with the difference in language, but I can tell from what you've written that you have the basics of it. The only thing I would have a problem with is what you said about no one in the OT paying for the sins of their parents, as I can think of any number of times that happens, or at least appears to happen. How about when David committed adultery and Bathsheba got pregnant from it, and the baby died? How about all the children of the pagans that God told Israel to kill? Most people would say that it was unfair to kill the children and especially the babies so it would look like they were punished for their parents sins. How would you answer if someone brought things like that up to you? |
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Post by Cindy on Nov 18, 2015 13:29:21 GMT -5
When we take the example of David who committed adultery and Bathsheba got pregnant from it, and the baby died, it seems like the kid paid for Davids sin. But, every human being has a purpose to fulfill, God has a plan. So that kid's purpose was to show and remind David of the consequence of sin and to make him consider to get back and have a relationship with the Lord. When the kid fulfilled its purpose it died. You did a good job on that Eva. I know it's difficult for you what with the difference in language, but I can tell from what you've written that you have the basics of it. The only thing I would have a problem with is what you said about no one in the OT paying for the sins of their parents, as I can think of any number of times that happens, or at least appears to happen. How about when David committed adultery and Bathsheba got pregnant from it, and the baby died? How about all the children of the pagans that God told Israel to kill? Most people would say that it was unfair to kill the children and especially the babies so it would look like they were punished for their parents sins. How would you answer if someone brought things like that up to you?
At the start I gave you these scriptures too:
“You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.” (Exodus 20:5–6) as well as Deuteronomy 5:9 which repeats the same thing. Then there is “And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:6–7)
Next there is:
“Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16) and “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.” (Ezekiel 18:20) and “God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”” (Romans 2:6)
So altogether I gave you 11 scriptures to start with. But you can't only use those scriptures, you need to look in other places too. And when you do look at those scriptures you need to read them in context, which means reading more then just the ones I gave you, so you can really understand what happened. God had good reasons for doing what He did in all those situations, just as He always does. Remember, you're trying to explain whether or not children pay for the sins of their parents, and you need to use scripture to show why, otherwise it's just your opinion and not what God says.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Nov 18, 2015 16:41:16 GMT -5
Sorry I am going to be a little late answering the next one because we had a big wind and rain storm ( lost electric 3 times and had several big leaks to keep us busy).
It is going to start raining again soon, but first I have to babysit for awhile...
( I just figured out granddaughter will prob babysit 2 or perhaps 3 times a week ( but still that is a big break for us).
She won't babysit on whatever 2 days our daughter has off....neither will we,
nor
will she sit on weekends.
But we may get 4 days off some weeks instead of 2 yeah!!
I will have to sit for the hour difference, elem school gets out and hour earlier than HS. each school day tho.
So hopefully after my hour, and assuming the electric doesn't go off, I will try again.
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Post by evafromgreece on Nov 18, 2015 16:45:17 GMT -5
I squeeze my mind, I read those scriptures, but I don't have the answer yet.
I try to think and pray that God opens my mind.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Nov 19, 2015 12:43:20 GMT -5
I had to get up at 3am to babysit but here I am with 2nd try.
I did pray and I didn't look anywhere for hints...
sooooo either try #2 will either be my 'creative') LOL ideas
or
answer to my prayers.
Either way, I have always needed a great deal of help discerning what is from the Lord and what is my mind,
so this is a good exercise to begin to get a clearer understanding ,
because you will be able to let me know for sure,
and slowly on as we do these questions,
I will begin to know which is which,
so this study is doubly good for me, thank you.
Well to start you already sort of gave a major 'hint' or explanation! We know people did see God in the Old Testament quoting you:
"we know that the Angel of the Lord in the OT, was in fact Jesus, so we know that people "saw" God and didn't even know it. They thought they'd seen an angel which was more then terrifying enough for them."
Also in the New Testament, after Jesus died and rose again...
His earthly body was changed...I will give a scripture about that...
but
first this scripture:
"who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body Philippians 3:20-21.
2 men saw Jesus after he rose from the dead,
on the to Emmaus,
they did not recognize Him, which suggests they had seen Him before He died.,
But now, they didn't recognize Him because He 'looked' , and was different.
But we get a clue as to His new Heavenly body( how He will look for the rest of eternity as God?) when He visit the disciples in the upper room after He rose from the dead.
He can walk thru 'material'
"Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them "
John 20:26
So in that sense they 'saw' God the Son
I was going to try to write more but if I am on the wrong track......
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Oh well, and here I thought this would be something that would be written in big bold letters in your hearts. I sure hope you put it in your notebooks this time then. Actually I'm shocked I didn't add it to your notebooks myself, but I probably thought it was so well understood that it wasn't needed. I still can't believe you don't remember this....maybe your mind just isn't cooperating with you today or something, like mine does at times... OK. First let me quote something from Got Questions in the hopes that the first sentence might jog your memory:
!!
