Post by Cindy on Jul 16, 2015 10:18:12 GMT -5
What does "church" mean to you? I mean, what do you think it should be? Personally, I think that if the apostles or first Christians were to come and attend many of our churches today, that they would be honestly appalled at what they've become. Many are more like social clubs then anything else.
When I read the Bible, I see "church" as being where the early Christians gathered together to worship God and learn more about Him. Yes, it was joyous in some ways, but it was also very serious business to them. It often meant life of death quite literally. (still does in some countries) In the early churches, salvation was not left to chance or even "alter calls". It was a very personal thing and was considered the most important thing in a persons entire life. Everything hinged on it. No one "assumed" someone else was saved just because they showed up.
For one thing, the churches were usually quite small, at least compared to today's churches. Everyone knew everyone else that attended. I don't mean they "knew them in passing" like we know most people, but they really knew them. They knew what each person was going through in their lives, the ups and the downs, and what each person needed most, and their trials and well, everything. They really considered each other brothers and sisters. CLOSE brothers and sisters. Again, not like we do today. They usually didn't just see each other at "church", but saw each other regularly during the week as well.
Although they had a "pastor", each of them were mentored until they were just as capable of leading as the pastor was. Their pastor wasn't supposed to do everything like they do now days. Back then, when people went out witnessing, they would witness to someone and when that person became saved, that person was brought back to the church and became part of their family. that person was then taught daily, (discipled/mentored) until they too were quite capable of leading a church. There was none of this, "let's go witnessing" where people go out and witness, hoping to say the sinners prayer with someone and then pat them on the back and say congrats! You're saved! Go find a church!" Witnessing was full time and was very much like having a new baby, because once saved that person had to be discipled until they had become a mature Christian.
Doctrine was very important to each and every person in the "church" then as they were each expected to know all that God had taught them so far. The letters from the apostles weren't just read to the people, but instead after they were read, the people memorized them! They didn't want to lose a single word of what had been said. Do you realize what that means? That means that many of the older Christians actually memorized what we call the entire new testament! Every word was precious to them and was received that way.
That's why when someone started spouting off about some strange doctrine, everyone knew right away that it was false, and it was NOT tolerated, not for one minute! They were told it was false and why and if they didn't repent they were tossed out on their behinds! Nor was it done in a "hush hush" manner. Everyone was then told to avoid that person because they were teaching false doctrine.
Can you see that happening in our churches today? Unfortunately it wouldn't happen in most.
When the group in the "church" got to large to comfortably know everyone and work together this way, then some of the most mature members left with their families and started new churches. That's how they grew. But you can bet that that new church taught exactly the same thing that the other church taught. After all they all learned together and discipled each other so they knew what was true.
Nor do I think that the children were sent off to Sunday School to hear nice bible stories. (not that there's anything wrong with hearing bible stories) Salvation was just way to important to think that they would have left their children out of it. The children were also discipled, only of course they were taught only what they could understand at their age. However, they were mainly taught the Gospel. The other stories were to support the Gospel story. They weren't interested in "entertaining" their children. They wanted their children saved just as surely as they were. What appalls me today is how many children of Christian parents, that have gone to Sunday School most of their life, have no clue at all what the Gospel is, much less how it relates to them.
As for people living in unrepentant sin, that just wasn't tolerated either. They took their faith seriously and everyone that was there did as well. If they didn't, then they left and didn't come back. Being a Christian wasn't for wimps and certainly wasn't just for Sundays. Remember, everyone knew everyone, so they knew when someone was living in sin. They didn't just hope these people would get right with the Lord, they insisted. They would explain to the person what the sin was and why it was a sin, and what the person needed to do. If that person then chose not to repent and change, then they were shown the door. Nor was it kept hush hush to avoid embarrassing that person. That would have been difficult anyway since everyone probably already knew about it anyway. What happened if the person fought repenting?
1 Timothy 5:20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
can you even imagine this happening in one of our churches today???? They'd probably be sued!!!
This was the way of life for Christians when Christianity first started though. That's why it grew like wild fire. That's why people were willing to die for their faith. They actually knew what their faith was and why!!! Most Americans don't!
But these are things that should be happening in our churches today. Christianity isn't a social club, nor is it just another way to teach morals to people. It's life! And even right here in the US, it's still a matter of life and death! It's about our eternal life!
Most of us wouldn't even hesitate to stop a child from playing with fire if we saw one doing that, but we hesitate and then think of all kinds of reasons why we shouldn't jump in and stop a fellow brother or sister who is playing with spiritual fire and endangering their relationship with God. Why is that? Does God mean so little to us? Does the other person mean so little to us? No, I think that it's more that we're more concerned that the other person will "like" us and not think we're some kind of religious nut job. The reason for that though is because our churches have gone so very far away from what they started out as. No one, or at least very few, have any spiritual back up. Everyone's "on their own". Even though they may belong to a church.
I seriously doubt if in these end days that we'll ever have churches like the original ones. I bet they do during the tribulation though. Going back to the original way it was done is the only way they'd be able to survive during the Trib. Now days, we're pretty much on our own as far as living the Christian life. Even those of us who attend really good churches. (good by today's standards anyway) I'm not sure it would even be realistic to try and have a real church like they did back then. I'm sure it would be labeled a cult and possibly rightly so. It would certainly be easy in these days for it to turn into one. No, better to let the Lord handle it, and continue to do the best we can with what we have. Like I said though, during the Tribulation, I'm sure the church will revert back to what it used to be. It will have to in order for any of them to survive.
I know it sounds really strange, but in many ways, the new believers in the Trib will be really blessed by having that kind of church again. For one thing, they'll mature in their faith much faster and much further then many Christians ever do in our times. Persecution tends to do that too, but it's also due to the type of church they'll have.
Most of us simply claim that we don't have the time to immerse ourselves in God's Word the way we'd have to in order to grow that way. We find all kinds of excuses for why we can't. But the Trib believers won't have that luxury. I'm sure they'll be deep in God's Word every spare minute they have, for as long as they are able to survive.
In a way I guess I kind of envy them. They will be great Saints for the Lord, and bring many into His kingdom. Their faith will be strong and secure and their testimonies are going to be just incredible to hear when we finally get to meet them in heaven!
That's partly why I don't worry so much about unsaved friends or family. I know they at least know enough that the rapture will convince them of the Truth and they will be saved. Their lives for the next 7 years will be horrible--for whatever part they survive, but their faith will shine like the brightest stars in heaven and far surpass mine!
Lee found an article that fits perfect in this thread in showing one of the main area's the churches have fallen down on their job in our times. Let me quote some of it show you what I mean:
Now compare that experience, which is unfortunately the experience of the vast majority of Christians and non Christians in the world today, with what I posted in the opening post and with what the Bible says about the earliest Christians. Pretty huge difference huh? Do you think any of these Christians today would die for their faith. I don't. Not the ones described by this article, because they have nothing to die for. Nor do they have anything to live for, they just don't know it.
Compare the average "Christian in name only" family today, with the earliest Christian families. They had to make darn sure their little ones knew the Gospel. In the first place, the wanted to make sure because they wanted their children saved. They weren't about to take a chance that their child might live one minute beyond the age of of being able to decide for Jesus, without doing so. They did that even though they knew that there was a very good chance that their child could be killed for believing in Jesus.
That's another part of Christianity that most of us really don't like to look at or think about. Let's look at what Paul said that he himself had done before he was saved:
Acts 22:4 "I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women,
Acts 22:20 `And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.'
Acts 26:10 "This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.
Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.
Really think about this: Would you be a Christian right now if things were still this way? Would you want your child to be a Christian?
Our answers to that question show in truth our relationship with Jesus. Those who really don't know the Gospel, couldn't answer "yes" to that question. The first churches couldn't take things for granted and had to make sure that everyone in them knew the Truth, because they may very well die for that truth. Yet these early Christians WANTED TO BE CHRISTIANS!!!!!! They loved Jesus!!!! They were willing to die for Him because they loved Him so much!!!! They were willing to allow that their children could die for Him!!!!!! Would you? (these are the questions I asked myself)
That is the difference between what a church should be and what they are today. These are the questions I asked myself that led me to find the real Jesus and get to know Him. I wanted to know why someone would die for Him. I wanted to know why, knowing they would die, they would then go public and preach about Him! I wanted to be just like them. I still do. That's what always pushes me onward to study my Bible more and to talk to the Lord and to obey Him. I hope that those questions will inspire the same reaction in others as well, and that the Lord will grant each and every one of us a heart of love and passion for Him.
There are many other differences between the first "churches" and our current church's that we can also discuss if you'd like. What I was mainly trying to get across though was just a few points at first:
Mainly being that we need to make sure at least for our loved ones, that they know the real Gospel, the real Jesus. Maybe I'm weird, but those questions I posted, really made a huge impact on my life and on my perspective of Christianity and what it's "supposed" to be. We often hear and even use the phrase, "It's a relationship, not a religion", but even that has gotten so well worn that it's almost meaningless to people now. Most people that don't have a real relationship with Jesus, don't realize it. It was only by asking myself those questions I posted, that I realized that I didn't. The thought that something, or someone could be so important that I would be happy to endure torture and or death for it, was alien to me.
Another question I asked myself was "What changed Peter????" Here he was a terrified man, running away and then the next thing we know, in only 3 days time, he's changed into the most powerful public speaker for Jesus ever! Defying the authorities to beat him, put him in prison, kill him or whatever. He wasn't scared anymore!!!! Why not????? I knew that was true. I knew it was real. It wasn't faked, it couldn't have been. No one dies for a lie. So what changed him???? That was another answer that I read the bible and dug for, because I sure didn't see changes like that in the people that went to my church back when I was originally asking these questions. So I knew the change had to have come from God. I also knew enough to know that God doesn't change. So what changed? Why didn't we have that now??? I wanted that, and I wanted it desperately!
That's the Gospel that needs to be preached. It reminds me of these verses, which took on a whole new meaning to me in light of those questions:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
1 Corinthians 2:5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power
1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
When I read the Bible, I see "church" as being where the early Christians gathered together to worship God and learn more about Him. Yes, it was joyous in some ways, but it was also very serious business to them. It often meant life of death quite literally. (still does in some countries) In the early churches, salvation was not left to chance or even "alter calls". It was a very personal thing and was considered the most important thing in a persons entire life. Everything hinged on it. No one "assumed" someone else was saved just because they showed up.
For one thing, the churches were usually quite small, at least compared to today's churches. Everyone knew everyone else that attended. I don't mean they "knew them in passing" like we know most people, but they really knew them. They knew what each person was going through in their lives, the ups and the downs, and what each person needed most, and their trials and well, everything. They really considered each other brothers and sisters. CLOSE brothers and sisters. Again, not like we do today. They usually didn't just see each other at "church", but saw each other regularly during the week as well.
Although they had a "pastor", each of them were mentored until they were just as capable of leading as the pastor was. Their pastor wasn't supposed to do everything like they do now days. Back then, when people went out witnessing, they would witness to someone and when that person became saved, that person was brought back to the church and became part of their family. that person was then taught daily, (discipled/mentored) until they too were quite capable of leading a church. There was none of this, "let's go witnessing" where people go out and witness, hoping to say the sinners prayer with someone and then pat them on the back and say congrats! You're saved! Go find a church!" Witnessing was full time and was very much like having a new baby, because once saved that person had to be discipled until they had become a mature Christian.
Doctrine was very important to each and every person in the "church" then as they were each expected to know all that God had taught them so far. The letters from the apostles weren't just read to the people, but instead after they were read, the people memorized them! They didn't want to lose a single word of what had been said. Do you realize what that means? That means that many of the older Christians actually memorized what we call the entire new testament! Every word was precious to them and was received that way.
That's why when someone started spouting off about some strange doctrine, everyone knew right away that it was false, and it was NOT tolerated, not for one minute! They were told it was false and why and if they didn't repent they were tossed out on their behinds! Nor was it done in a "hush hush" manner. Everyone was then told to avoid that person because they were teaching false doctrine.
Can you see that happening in our churches today? Unfortunately it wouldn't happen in most.
When the group in the "church" got to large to comfortably know everyone and work together this way, then some of the most mature members left with their families and started new churches. That's how they grew. But you can bet that that new church taught exactly the same thing that the other church taught. After all they all learned together and discipled each other so they knew what was true.
Nor do I think that the children were sent off to Sunday School to hear nice bible stories. (not that there's anything wrong with hearing bible stories) Salvation was just way to important to think that they would have left their children out of it. The children were also discipled, only of course they were taught only what they could understand at their age. However, they were mainly taught the Gospel. The other stories were to support the Gospel story. They weren't interested in "entertaining" their children. They wanted their children saved just as surely as they were. What appalls me today is how many children of Christian parents, that have gone to Sunday School most of their life, have no clue at all what the Gospel is, much less how it relates to them.
As for people living in unrepentant sin, that just wasn't tolerated either. They took their faith seriously and everyone that was there did as well. If they didn't, then they left and didn't come back. Being a Christian wasn't for wimps and certainly wasn't just for Sundays. Remember, everyone knew everyone, so they knew when someone was living in sin. They didn't just hope these people would get right with the Lord, they insisted. They would explain to the person what the sin was and why it was a sin, and what the person needed to do. If that person then chose not to repent and change, then they were shown the door. Nor was it kept hush hush to avoid embarrassing that person. That would have been difficult anyway since everyone probably already knew about it anyway. What happened if the person fought repenting?
1 Timothy 5:20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
can you even imagine this happening in one of our churches today???? They'd probably be sued!!!
This was the way of life for Christians when Christianity first started though. That's why it grew like wild fire. That's why people were willing to die for their faith. They actually knew what their faith was and why!!! Most Americans don't!
But these are things that should be happening in our churches today. Christianity isn't a social club, nor is it just another way to teach morals to people. It's life! And even right here in the US, it's still a matter of life and death! It's about our eternal life!
Most of us wouldn't even hesitate to stop a child from playing with fire if we saw one doing that, but we hesitate and then think of all kinds of reasons why we shouldn't jump in and stop a fellow brother or sister who is playing with spiritual fire and endangering their relationship with God. Why is that? Does God mean so little to us? Does the other person mean so little to us? No, I think that it's more that we're more concerned that the other person will "like" us and not think we're some kind of religious nut job. The reason for that though is because our churches have gone so very far away from what they started out as. No one, or at least very few, have any spiritual back up. Everyone's "on their own". Even though they may belong to a church.
I seriously doubt if in these end days that we'll ever have churches like the original ones. I bet they do during the tribulation though. Going back to the original way it was done is the only way they'd be able to survive during the Trib. Now days, we're pretty much on our own as far as living the Christian life. Even those of us who attend really good churches. (good by today's standards anyway) I'm not sure it would even be realistic to try and have a real church like they did back then. I'm sure it would be labeled a cult and possibly rightly so. It would certainly be easy in these days for it to turn into one. No, better to let the Lord handle it, and continue to do the best we can with what we have. Like I said though, during the Tribulation, I'm sure the church will revert back to what it used to be. It will have to in order for any of them to survive.
I know it sounds really strange, but in many ways, the new believers in the Trib will be really blessed by having that kind of church again. For one thing, they'll mature in their faith much faster and much further then many Christians ever do in our times. Persecution tends to do that too, but it's also due to the type of church they'll have.
Most of us simply claim that we don't have the time to immerse ourselves in God's Word the way we'd have to in order to grow that way. We find all kinds of excuses for why we can't. But the Trib believers won't have that luxury. I'm sure they'll be deep in God's Word every spare minute they have, for as long as they are able to survive.
In a way I guess I kind of envy them. They will be great Saints for the Lord, and bring many into His kingdom. Their faith will be strong and secure and their testimonies are going to be just incredible to hear when we finally get to meet them in heaven!
That's partly why I don't worry so much about unsaved friends or family. I know they at least know enough that the rapture will convince them of the Truth and they will be saved. Their lives for the next 7 years will be horrible--for whatever part they survive, but their faith will shine like the brightest stars in heaven and far surpass mine!
Lee found an article that fits perfect in this thread in showing one of the main area's the churches have fallen down on their job in our times. Let me quote some of it show you what I mean:
One might wonder how the people of “the world” are able to stay blind in this very prophetic time in history. Personally, I was one of those people living in blissful ignorance, not so long ago. I was one of those Christians who weren’t really a Christian, but was told since I was little that I was, so I didn’t questioned it. I didn’t look inside to see if I was. I didn’t question my standing with God. I just lived my life without much thought of the eternity. From what I knew, I was saved because I believed in Jesus. I had my ticket into heaven and no one could snatch me out of His hand from what I understood. Yet, I never read the Bible, I rarely went to church most of my life, and I didn’t worry about it either. I didn’t feel guilty about my sin because hey it was paid for by Jesus and was not going to be remembered by God, so who was I to dwell on it? Anyone out there relate?
We have to remember that people are blind, and “we” have the ointment that can cure them. Yet, it seems that even in the church people are passing the buck to someone else to do the dirty work of spreading the Gospel. We just want to reap the benefits of being a Christian without doing the work of a follower. True Christian’s know without a doubt that most churches these days are not giving the full Gospel, so they know that people who are looking to find God in church are still blind after they leave their hip, concert-like, coffee selling churches. Do these blind parishioners know they are blind or do they walk out feeling like they got something spiritual? I can tell you that I was a volunteer in my seeker sensitive church for years and never once questioned my standing with God. I loved going to that church and never thought that it was a watered down message. In fact, I was sure that my sins were forgiven and didn’t even question my habitual sin. In truth, I could go out drinking with my friends and have no feelings of guilt, for I was not expected to be perfect. Once I learned the truth by simply picking up my Bible and reading it, my church actually seemed irritated by my desire to make sure people were told the whole truth.
www.raptureready.com/soap/hell3.html
We have to remember that people are blind, and “we” have the ointment that can cure them. Yet, it seems that even in the church people are passing the buck to someone else to do the dirty work of spreading the Gospel. We just want to reap the benefits of being a Christian without doing the work of a follower. True Christian’s know without a doubt that most churches these days are not giving the full Gospel, so they know that people who are looking to find God in church are still blind after they leave their hip, concert-like, coffee selling churches. Do these blind parishioners know they are blind or do they walk out feeling like they got something spiritual? I can tell you that I was a volunteer in my seeker sensitive church for years and never once questioned my standing with God. I loved going to that church and never thought that it was a watered down message. In fact, I was sure that my sins were forgiven and didn’t even question my habitual sin. In truth, I could go out drinking with my friends and have no feelings of guilt, for I was not expected to be perfect. Once I learned the truth by simply picking up my Bible and reading it, my church actually seemed irritated by my desire to make sure people were told the whole truth.
www.raptureready.com/soap/hell3.html
Compare the average "Christian in name only" family today, with the earliest Christian families. They had to make darn sure their little ones knew the Gospel. In the first place, the wanted to make sure because they wanted their children saved. They weren't about to take a chance that their child might live one minute beyond the age of of being able to decide for Jesus, without doing so. They did that even though they knew that there was a very good chance that their child could be killed for believing in Jesus.
That's another part of Christianity that most of us really don't like to look at or think about. Let's look at what Paul said that he himself had done before he was saved:
Acts 22:4 "I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women,
Acts 22:20 `And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.'
Acts 26:10 "This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.
Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.
Really think about this: Would you be a Christian right now if things were still this way? Would you want your child to be a Christian?
Our answers to that question show in truth our relationship with Jesus. Those who really don't know the Gospel, couldn't answer "yes" to that question. The first churches couldn't take things for granted and had to make sure that everyone in them knew the Truth, because they may very well die for that truth. Yet these early Christians WANTED TO BE CHRISTIANS!!!!!! They loved Jesus!!!! They were willing to die for Him because they loved Him so much!!!! They were willing to allow that their children could die for Him!!!!!! Would you? (these are the questions I asked myself)
That is the difference between what a church should be and what they are today. These are the questions I asked myself that led me to find the real Jesus and get to know Him. I wanted to know why someone would die for Him. I wanted to know why, knowing they would die, they would then go public and preach about Him! I wanted to be just like them. I still do. That's what always pushes me onward to study my Bible more and to talk to the Lord and to obey Him. I hope that those questions will inspire the same reaction in others as well, and that the Lord will grant each and every one of us a heart of love and passion for Him.
There are many other differences between the first "churches" and our current church's that we can also discuss if you'd like. What I was mainly trying to get across though was just a few points at first:
Mainly being that we need to make sure at least for our loved ones, that they know the real Gospel, the real Jesus. Maybe I'm weird, but those questions I posted, really made a huge impact on my life and on my perspective of Christianity and what it's "supposed" to be. We often hear and even use the phrase, "It's a relationship, not a religion", but even that has gotten so well worn that it's almost meaningless to people now. Most people that don't have a real relationship with Jesus, don't realize it. It was only by asking myself those questions I posted, that I realized that I didn't. The thought that something, or someone could be so important that I would be happy to endure torture and or death for it, was alien to me.
Another question I asked myself was "What changed Peter????" Here he was a terrified man, running away and then the next thing we know, in only 3 days time, he's changed into the most powerful public speaker for Jesus ever! Defying the authorities to beat him, put him in prison, kill him or whatever. He wasn't scared anymore!!!! Why not????? I knew that was true. I knew it was real. It wasn't faked, it couldn't have been. No one dies for a lie. So what changed him???? That was another answer that I read the bible and dug for, because I sure didn't see changes like that in the people that went to my church back when I was originally asking these questions. So I knew the change had to have come from God. I also knew enough to know that God doesn't change. So what changed? Why didn't we have that now??? I wanted that, and I wanted it desperately!
That's the Gospel that needs to be preached. It reminds me of these verses, which took on a whole new meaning to me in light of those questions:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
1 Corinthians 2:5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power
1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
!!
