fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383 
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Post by fearnot on Jan 11, 2021 12:30:21 GMT -5
I think I was kind of drawn to this topic you purposed:
Did Gamaliel give the Sanhedrin good or bad advice?
(Acts 5:34–39)
What can we learn from this?
My thought is:
we may soon be in a similar situation or circumstance,
because, I think, the Bible will soon be considered 'hate' speech
and we too,
may be brought up to be judged.
So I believe we can learn a lot from what happened in the past,
when the apostles were faced with hatred,
and persecution,
from outside the church.
The fact was,
the chances were very high,
that the apostles might face
death by stoning,
which is very sobering to believers in the USA today.
I think the first thing we can note is
even so,
God was in control!
In order to look at the verses you mentioned
I thought I would give a bit of the back story first:
17 But the high priest rose up,
and all who were with him
(that is, the party of the Sadducees),
and filled with jealousy
18 they arrested the apostles and put them in the public prison.
Acts 5:17,18
What seemed to be their problem?
Well for one:
The Sadducees had indicted
the apostles for quote: 'heresy',
( for preaching the resurrection)
and thus,
the Sadducees threw the apostles in prison.
But as soon as the apostles got out of prison....
they went right back to preaching the truth!
25 And someone came and told them,
“Look! The men whom you put in prison
are standing in the temple and teaching the people.”
Acts 5:25
Another lesson
I see is a persistence
of the apostles
even in the face of:
jealousy
hatred
unfair imprisonment
potential death
etc.
Of course, tho,
this persistence,
brings great wrath
upon them!!!
27 And when they had brought them,
they set them before the council.
And the high priest questioned them,
28 saying,
“We strictly charged you not to teach
in this name ( Jesus),
yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching,
and you intend to bring this man's blood ( Jesus) upon us.”
Acts 5:27,28
This is such a bold, honest, pure answer,
and the gospel
that
the apostles give to the high priest:
29 But Peter and the apostles answered,
“We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus,
whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.
31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior,
to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are witnesses to these things,
and so is the Holy Spirit,
whom God has given to those who obey him.”
Acts 5:29-32
But here is a very very strange thing,
God is going to use the least likely
source
(a person)
to help free them!
This gave me real pause for what is happening
in the world today....
What IF,
that will also be the case for
some Christians in our time?
Perhaps in a moment of fear,
we might 'wish',
God would
dispense with our enemies
so we could be 'safe'......
Only.......
what IF
it turned out that
one person, who was perhaps
in with the worst of our enemies,
is going to be the one
to show us kindness,
or freedom of sorts?
So here is another lesson:
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:9
So tomorrow I will look at
this rather strange help
and what he said etc.
A Pharisee named Gamaliel
Done for Today
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Post by Cindy on Jan 12, 2021 10:20:16 GMT -5
I'm going to wait to see where you're going to go with this before commenting as I don't want to assume something that you may not be saying.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jan 12, 2021 11:03:21 GMT -5
Oh oh....now I am worried, I am going in the wrong direction...and am a wee bit afraid to carry on.....
Well, I will try with trepidation
But I wish I knew, in what way I seemed to be veering in the wrong direction
cuz now I am a bit worried.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jan 12, 2021 12:15:34 GMT -5
Having given a bit of the back story
I will 'attempt' to look at the question about Gamaliel
and his advise ( was it good or bad advise?)
Here is the scripture:
34 But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel,
a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people,
stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while.
35 And he said to them,
“Men of Israel,
take care what you are about to do with these men.
36 For before these days Theudas rose up,
claiming to be somebody,
and a number of men,
about four hundred, joined him.
He was killed,
and all who followed him were dispersed
and came to nothing.
37 After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census
and drew away some of the people after him.
He too perished,
and all who followed him were scattered.
38 So in the present case I tell you,
keep away from these men and let them alone,
for if this plan or this undertaking is of man,
it will fail;
39 but if it is of God,
you will not be able to overthrow them.
You might even be found opposing God!”
So they took his advice,
Acts 5:34-39
So a brief note about Gamaliel:
Gamaliel was a Pharisee as stated in this scripture,
and a grandson of the famous Rabbi Hillel.
He was held in honor by the people.
As a side note, he was also the teacher
of the apostle Paul.
3 “I (Paul) am a Jew,
born in Tarsus in Cilicia,
but brought up in this city,
educated at the feet of Gamaliel
according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers,
being zealous for God as all of you are this day.
Acts 22:3
Gamaliel was considered an 'expert'
in the knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures,
and thus would also be considered to have good judgment.
So when he spoke up, people would listen.
His first piece of advise
was to be 'careful' when deciding what to do about the apostles.
I think Gamaliel counciled them ( the Sanhedren)
that way,
perhaps, because the Sanhedrin
had let their anger,
turn to emotional murderous rage!!
As a result, they ( the Sanhedrin)
were perhaps going to react to Peter
and the other apostles,
based totally, on blinding hatred....
and end up 'possibly' offending
and even,
being against God.
S it seemed almost like he was suggesting
they did not fall into this trap:
When a man's folly brings his way to ruin,
his heart rages against the Lord.
Proverbs 19:3
And I see the Sanhedrin,
as more like this next verse,
because it did not look as if,
any of them prayed
or asked God about this situation:
Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the Lord?
Psalm 14:4
But then.....
Gamaliel adds more
advise....
and
he gives some examples of:
'trouble makers' from the past
and how God dealt with them.....
I think that is not 'exactly' bad,
because, in fact,
God IS in control.
But it seems,
the main thrust of Gamaliel's argument,
is ONLY
to take a 'wait and see' approach...
wait to see
what God will do.
However, Gamaliel's advise
was based on
even more than,
a wait and see principle.
He also suggested that:
anything that
FAILS,
is NOT of God
But....Also
ANYTHING that succeeds
IS of God.
And therein lies the problem!
There are all manner of
EVIL things in this world,
that are very very very successful!
All sorts of false religions,
New age, witchcraft,
and cults etc.
porn and child trafficking,
drugs, and prostitution,
etc.
The list of 'successes'
as far as,
money and power goes,
is very very long!!!
I think because Gamaliel did not
suggest finding out
THE TRUTH
he ended up giving poor advise:
22 Claiming to be wise,
they became fools,
Romans 1:22
While it is true,
in the ultimate end...
God WILL take care of all that is wrong, evil, unrighteous etc.
But for a 'court of law'
not to try to determine the truth
through scripture...
then, Gamamiel did not give good advise
in that sense.
However, a true statement Gamaliel made
was:
if it is of God,
you will not be able to overthrow them.
You might even be found opposing God!”
Indeed!!!
Christianity has proven that to be a fact!!
But the 'lesson' to Christians
is not to fall into the same
'wait and see' trap
and just do what is the easy way out.
But rather....
we must find the TRUTH
and
We must look at all things
through the lens of God's word.
When it comes to discerning:
the Truth
about God, salvation,
a 'religion, etc.
Taking a 'wait and see' attitude is
NEVER good!
Behold, now is the favorable time;
behold, now is the day of salvation.
2 Corinthians 6:2
Done for Today
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Post by Cindy on Jan 13, 2021 10:51:33 GMT -5
Oh oh....now I am worried, I am going in the wrong direction...and am a wee bit afraid to carry on.....
Well, I will try with trepidation
But I wish I knew, in what way I seemed to be veering in the wrong direction
cuz now I am a bit worried.  What you wrote before was very good, and well done, but it sounded to me like you were going to say that he gave good advice, and that's sadly not true. Again, I apologize.
Having given a bit of the back story
I will 'attempt' to look at the question about Gamaliel
and his advise ( was it good or bad advise?)
Here is the scripture:
34 But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel,
a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people,
stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while.
35 And he said to them,
“Men of Israel,
take care what you are about to do with these men.
36 For before these days Theudas rose up,
claiming to be somebody,
and a number of men,
about four hundred, joined him.
He was killed,
and all who followed him were dispersed
and came to nothing.
37 After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census
and drew away some of the people after him.
He too perished,
and all who followed him were scattered.
38 So in the present case I tell you,
keep away from these men and let them alone,
for if this plan or this undertaking is of man,
it will fail;
39 but if it is of God,
you will not be able to overthrow them.
You might even be found opposing God!”
So they took his advice,
Acts 5:34-39
So a brief note about Gamaliel:
Gamaliel was a Pharisee as stated in this scripture,
and a grandson of the famous Rabbi Hillel.
He was held in honor by the people.
As a side note, he was also the teacher
of the apostle Paul.
3 “I (Paul) am a Jew,
born in Tarsus in Cilicia,
but brought up in this city,
educated at the feet of Gamaliel
according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers,
being zealous for God as all of you are this day.
Acts 22:3
Gamaliel was considered an 'expert'
in the knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures,
and thus would also be considered to have good judgment.
So when he spoke up, people would listen.
His first piece of advise
was to be 'careful' when deciding what to do about the apostles.
I think Gamaliel counciled them ( the Sanhedren)
that way,
perhaps, because the Sanhedrin
had let their anger,
turn to emotional murderous rage!!
As a result, they ( the Sanhedrin)
were perhaps going to react to Peter
and the other apostles,
based totally, on blinding hatred....
and end up 'possibly' offending
and even,
being against God.
S it seemed almost like he was suggesting
they did not fall into this trap:
When a man's folly brings his way to ruin,
his heart rages against the Lord.
Proverbs 19:3
And I see the Sanhedrin,
as more like this next verse,
because it did not look as if,
any of them prayed
or asked God about this situation:
Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the Lord?
Psalm 14:4
But then.....
Gamaliel adds more
advise....
and
he gives some examples of:
'trouble makers' from the past
and how God dealt with them.....
I think that is not 'exactly' bad,
because, in fact,
God IS in control.
But it seems,
the main thrust of Gamaliel's argument,
is ONLY
to take a 'wait and see' approach...
wait to see
what God will do.
However, Gamaliel's advise
was based on
even more than,
a wait and see principle.
He also suggested that:
anything that
FAILS,
is NOT of God
But....Also
ANYTHING that succeeds
IS of God.
And therein lies the problem!
There are all manner of
EVIL things in this world,
that are very very very successful!
All sorts of false religions,
New age, witchcraft,
and cults etc.
porn and child trafficking,
drugs, and prostitution,
etc.
The list of 'successes'
as far as,
money and power goes,
is very very long!!!
I think because Gamaliel did not
suggest finding out
THE TRUTH
he ended up giving poor advise:
22 Claiming to be wise,
they became fools,
Romans 1:22
While it is true,
in the ultimate end...
God WILL take care of all that is wrong, evil, unrighteous etc.
But for a 'court of law'
not to try to determine the truth
through scripture...
then, Gamamiel did not give good advise
in that sense.
However, a true statement Gamaliel made
was:
if it is of God,
you will not be able to overthrow them.
You might even be found opposing God!”
Indeed!!!
Christianity has proven that to be a fact!!
But the 'lesson' to Christians
is not to fall into the same
'wait and see' trap
and just do what is the easy way out.
But rather....
we must find the TRUTH
and
We must look at all things
through the lens of God's word.
When it comes to discerning:
the Truth
about God, salvation,
a 'religion, etc.
Taking a 'wait and see' attitude is
NEVER good!
Behold, now is the favorable time;
behold, now is the day of salvation.
2 Corinthians 6:2
Done for Today
 Well said! Yes, his advise, sounds good at our first reading because it lets the apostles off the hook, which we think is good, but in fact, it was bad advice. For one thing, this was Israel's most respected teacher of that time, and yet even he would not check out the credentials of Christ for himself or suggest they do so either. He was the grandson of Hillel another famous rabbi and he led the liberal faction of the Pharisees. Plus, the people and groups he named were nothing like Jesus or the apostles! Theudas and Judas the Galilean were terrorists, murderers, and rebels against Rome. |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jan 13, 2021 13:48:22 GMT -5
No No No Cindy.....I am glad you did say something....
I was just a wee bit worried, I was heading in the wrong way
and did not want to write more if that were true....
I figured I must have written 'something' that might have possibly been a potential red flag.
But yeah, it was kind of tricky because like you said,
his words did keep the apostles from maybe being killed,
and tho they did receive the 39 lashes each...
they were set free.
Well I think I will move onto another
This one:
( but I will start a new thread)
What does the author mean by this?
“Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking,
but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,”
Romans 14:16,17
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Post by Cindy on Jan 14, 2021 10:43:43 GMT -5
Yeah, the apostles didn't really get off all that easy since getting those lashes often actually killed the person. The only reason it didn't kill the apostles is because it wasn't their time to die and the Lord kept that from happening. You and I know what it's like to live with severe pain, but I honestly can't imagine (or maybe I just don't want to!) what it would be like to go through getting beat up like they did with those lashes and not have anything like morphine to take for it!  Here's what MacArthur says about it:
The whip used for scourging consisted of several strands of leather attached to a wooden handle. Each strand had a bit of metal or bone attached to the end. The victim was bound to a post by the wrists, high over his head, so that the flesh of the back would be taut. An expert at wielding the scourge could literally tear the flesh from the back, lacerating muscles, and sometimes even exposing the kidneys or other internal organs. Scourging alone was fatal in some cases.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jan 14, 2021 10:53:07 GMT -5
And didn't that happen more than once to Paul....like 5 times?
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Post by Cindy on Jan 16, 2021 11:19:26 GMT -5
And didn't that happen more than once to Paul....like 5 times?
“flogged” This was not the same as the Roman flogging (mastix, cf. Acts 22:24–25), which Jesus endured. This referred to the Jewish beating with rods (cf. Deut. 25:3; i.e. derō, Luke 12:47–48; 20:10–11; 22:63). It was very painful, but not life-threatening. The interpretive problem is that these two Greek terms are often used interchangeably. The Septuagint of Deut. 25:3 has mastix, but it refers to a Jewish punishment. Luke regularly uses derō for this Jewish synagogue beating (literally “skinning an animal”). Luke the Historian
They were stripped and given thirty-nine blows with rods across the back. This severe treatment was not so much to be a punishment for what the apostles had done but rather an emphasis on the renewed order not to be saying a word “on (the basis of) the name of Jesus”. To be beaten thus was no small disgrace; before Roman judges Roman citizens dared not be treated thus. The Jews had no such restrictions. The Interpretation of the Acts
Sorry about that! |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jan 16, 2021 12:22:01 GMT -5
Well thank you....I had no idea!
I am sure that would be plenty painful!!!!
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What you wrote before was very good, and well done, but it sounded to me like you were going to say that he gave good advice, and that's sadly not true. Again, I apologize. 
Here's what MacArthur says about it:
!!
