Post by Cindy on Dec 5, 2016 13:32:03 GMT -5
I just learned something very interesting about defending our faith. I've felt for a long time that the way many people go about it in apologetics forums all over the internet is wrong, and strove to keep that strife away from Fresh Hope on our old board. Because I did, both sides turned around and attacked me, which only served to confirm that attacking people instead of the topic, calling them names etc, was not appropriate behavior for a Christian. I'm well acquainted with the scriptures used to prove that it's ok to attack other people, but have always felt that they were taken out of context. Now I have an even better understanding of it though and would like to share what I’ve learned.
I came across this scripture in my study this morning: Acts 19:8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. Noticing the word "arguing" I looked it up in the original language:
Arguing: 1256 διαλέγομαι [dialegomai /dee•al•eg•om•ahee/] v. Middle voice from 1223 and 3004; TDNT 2:93; TDNTA 155; GK 1363; 13 occurrences; AV translates as “dispute” six times, “reason with” twice, “reason” twice, “preach unto” once, “preach” once, and “speak” once. 1 to think different things with one’s self, mingle thought with thought. 1a to ponder, revolve in mind. 2 to converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon
33.26 διαλέγομαιb; δημηγορέω: to speak in a somewhat formal setting and probably implying a more formal use of language—‘to address, to make a speech.’ Louw Nida
As you can see the word really shouldn't have been translated as arguing, but rather as preaching or something similar. The ESV does a better job of translating it: ESV | Ac 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. We can see that not only by the way the word is defined, but also by it’s context. Paul “argued” or preached, “persuasively.” I’ve never heard of anyone being persuaded about anything when they were being attacked or called names. People are persuaded when they’re spoken to as equals and in a gentle and loving manner that tells them that the person cares about them.
That got me started and I wanted to see just what Paul did and didn't do when he was witnessing and defending the faith. Especially when I came to the next scripture where Paul states that he was not arguing with anyone at the temple when he was telling them about the Lord. Acts 24:12 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city.
Again I looked the word "arguing" up in the original language and it was the same word as used before but the Louw Nida lexicon which refines the meaning, showed it as slightly different than the word in the previous verse, causing it to be used like what we would term as a real argument or disagreement. Arguing: 33.446 to argue about differences of opinion—‘to argue, to dispute, argument.’ Louw Nida
In this sentence we can also look at the context, and are given another word: Stirring up: 1999 n f. From the middle voice of a compound of 1909 and 4921; GK 2180 and 2194; Two occurrences; AV translates as “that which comes upon” once, and “a raising up + 4060” once. 1 a hostile banding together or concourse. 1a to excite to a riotous gathering of the people to make a mob. 1b a troublesome throng of persons seeking help, counsel, comfort. 1c throng to one.
39.34 f: to rise up in open defiance of authority, with the presumed intention to overthrow it or to act in complete opposition to its demands—‘to rebel against, to revolt, to engage in insurrection, rebellion.’ Louw Nida
The words "stirring up" show what type of speech he's talking about. So we know again that Paul was not literally arguing, fighting or upsetting others.
Paul even tells us how we're to act: “Do everything without complaining or arguing,” (Philippians 2:14) “Everything” would include defending our faith. This time the word “arguing” is different and the Louw Nida lexicon refines the meaning and shows it as an actual argument, and is the same one we saw before in Acts 24:12:
1261 [dialogismos /dee•al•og•is•mos/] n m. From 1260; TDNT 2:96; TDNTA 155; GK 1369; 14 occurrences; AV translates as “thought” nine times, “reasoning” once, “imagination” once, “doubtful” once, “disputing” once, and “doubting” once. 1 the thinking of a man deliberating with himself. 1a a thought, inward reasoning. 1b purpose, design. 2 a deliberating, questioning about what is true. 2a hesitation, doubting. 2b disputing, arguing. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon.
33.446 m: to argue about differences of opinion—‘to argue, to dispute, argument.’ Louw Nida
He also tells us more about how to act specifically related to defending the faith, but I'll get to that later. Right now I want to look at how those he would defend the faith against, spoke: “A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.” (Acts 17:18) In this verse we see the word “dispute”.
Dispute: 4820 συμβάλλω [sumballo /soom•bal•lo/] v. From 4862 and 906; GK 5202; Six occurrences; AV translates as “ponder” once, “make” once, “confer” once, “encounter” once, “help” once, and “meet with” once. 1 to throw together, to bring together. 1a to converse. 1b to bring together in one’s mind, confer with one’s self. 1c to come together, meet. 1c1 to encounter in a hostile sense. 1c2 to fight with one. 1c3 to bring together of one’s property, to contribute, aid, help.
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. 33.439 to express differences of opinion in a forceful way, involving alternative opportunities for presenting contrasting viewpoints—‘to debate, to discuss forcefully.’ Louw Nida
From this and the context we can easily determine that the unsaved people who had been listening to Paul talk, began to attack him verbally, calling him names and putting down what he’d been saying. From the context you get the idea of a large crowd that’s grown angry and that doesn’t want to hear anything else Paul has to say. Given the chance, they’d probably argue with him all day, but they wouldn’t learn anything from it, because they’d only be listening in order to get material to attack him with. They wouldn’t be listening in order to actually process or reflect on what’s being said and possibly learn from it. (and that’s something we see constantly in apologetics forums, isn’t it?)
Paul gives us some instructions for how to speak to others here: “Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:23–26)
Here again are the definitions:
Arguments: 2214 ἐκζήτησις, ζήτησις [zetesis /dzay•tay•sis/] n f. From 2212; TDNT 2:893; TDNTA 300; GK 1700 and 2428; Six occurrences; AV translates as “question” six times. 1 a seeking. 2 enquiry. 3 a questioning, debate. 4 a subject of questioning or debate, matter of controversy. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon.
33.440 f: to express forceful differences of opinion without necessarily having a presumed goal of seeking a solution—‘to dispute, dispute.’ ‘some teachers of the Law were disputing with them’ Mk 9:14. Louw Nida
quarrels: 3163 [mache /makh•ay/] n f. From 3164; TDNT 4:527; TDNTA 573; GK 3480; Four occurrences; AV translates as “fighting” twice, “strife” once, and “striving” once. 1 a fight or combat. 1a of those in arms, a battle. 1b of persons at variance, disputants etc., strife, contention. 1c a quarrel. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon.
39.23 f: serious conflict, either physical or non-physical, but clearly intensive and bitter—‘to clash severely, struggle, fight.’ Louw Nida
There’s little doubt what this means. We are told not to get into arguments and quarrels that have no goal of seeking a solution; not to get into a serious conflict, and not to generate strife between us and another person or persons we’re talking to. Instead we are to speak to them and instruct them gently and kindly, with the goal being that they would learn the truth and escape from the trap Satan has them in. This brings us to another area that we are all familiar with. Jesus tells us over and over that we are to love others and makes sure we know He means everyone – saved and unsaved alike. We are told further that we are to put the needs and desires of others ahead of our own and that we are to always, as far as it is within our means to be at peace with others. “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.” (Romans 12:18) The Lord knows that we don't really know how to love the way He does, so He went to great lengths to describe what love should look like in all kinds of situations. There's so much about it that it would take several books to even share it all. Love always speaks the Truth, it never lies, but on the other hand, love does not beat another person up with the Truth. Instead love shares the truth gently, lovingly, with the goal being to help the other person come to know it and be free. There simply is no excuse for beating someone else up with the Truth, that's not what Jesus wants us to do. He wants us to be peacemakers, and to be in a good relationship with everyone.
Let's look at another scripture that gives us more directions on how we're to act and speak: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.” (Colossians 3:16–17) The word that's translated as "admonish" in this verse actually means to counsel. In other words we are to counsel each other from God's Word. This is not telling us to rebuke others. It means to counsel, instruct, or even to correct through counseling. To clarify it further, Paul said we're to do this "with all wisdom". Wisdom is defined for us by James: “But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.” (James 3:17–18) Again then, counseling or admonishing someone does not look like an argument. It looks peaceful and loving and sincere.
We're also told: “to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.” (Titus 3:2) We should also keep in mind that slanderers are always in the lists of people who will not be in heaven. Let's make sure of what it means then:
Synonyms for slander: backbiting, backstabbing, belittlement, calumny, defamation, depreciation, disparagement, scandal, tale, malign, asperse, calumniate, defame, denigrate, libel, slur, smear, tear down. Related words: assail, attack; damage, hurt, injure; mud-slinging. Merriam-Webster’s What is seen constantly in apologetics forums. Paul makes sure we understand that we are not only not to slander others, but instead we are to bless them and be kind to those who slander us. We are given no time when we can slander others in return. “We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.” (1 Corinthians 4:12–13)
I could continue in like manner for many pages, but I think we get the idea. Defending the faith is not supposed to a time when we attack others, no matter how irritating or how evil we may think they are. What do we do then if they won't listen to us, if they just keep ignoring us or attacking us instead of attacking the topic? The Lord tells us what to do in that case as well: “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.” (Matthew 10:14) ““Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.” (Matthew 7:6) We are not to endlessly continue to defend the faith to the same people about the same thing over and over and over again. That's not what we are here for, even if we do enjoy doing that. We are here to speak the truth in love and rescue people from Satan's traps. If they refuse to listen, or if they simply continually; argue about it and/or go off topic, attack us or do any of the other things they like to do in order to avoid the topic and try to make themselves look good, we are to leave them alone. We are to calmly let them know that if and when they would truly like to hear the truth, then we will be more than happy to discuss it with them, but until then, we need to be about our Lord's business.
Can you just imagine all the forum owners shuddering when they read that? What do you suppose would happen to apologetics forums all over the internet if Christians actually did what Jesus tells us to do? Those forums would suddenly get very, very quiet, because 99% of all apologetics forums are simply full of people who want to argue for the sake of arguing. When you read any one thread, you've read them all, because the same thing goes on in all of them. Often even in the exact same words.
For years I tried talking to the people in our apologetics forum to try and get them to stop attacking each other. It got to the point where it seemed like the only thing I did all day was hand out warnings or ban people for going to far and getting to nasty in apologetics. After much prayer I finally told them all that I would ban them outright from then on because I wasn't going to have a forum on my board that was not bringing glory and honor to the Lord. They threatened that if I did that, the board would die because they would leave and no one else would come to it. I was determined to do what the Lord's Word said though regardless of what it did to the popularity of the board. The apologetics forum did more or less die after that, since they all left, but to me it was like a breath of fresh air. I no longer had to concern myself with babysitting that forum and giving out warnings and banning people. I actually had time to discuss God's Word with people who wanted to discuss it! It was great! And the board itself did just fine without the apologetics forum. Afterward though I realized how easy it was to get caught up in how the world thinks instead of what God says. After all, we all want to be popular and to succeed. In fact, that's a good part of the reason why it took me so long to fully obey the Lord and force people to stop attacking each other, because I was afraid of what people thought more than I was afraid of not obeying the Lord. I had to remember that the board belonged to Him, not me; and that He had called me to administrate the board in such a way that it would bring honor to Him in all things, and therefore I had to stand firm in what He said, not what my flesh wanted or how the world defined success.
I don't want it to sound like I never did any of those things in apologetics myself, because I did. I was every bit as bad as everyone else. I guess the only difference is that I realized I was sinning and asked for the Lord's forgiveness and for Him to show me what to do. Since I'd never even seen an apologetics forum before our own, I had simply accepted what everyone posted as what was supposed to happen in that kind of forum. It didn't even occur to me at first to question it. I did go look at apologetics forums on other Christian boards, and saw that people posted pretty much exactly the same way in all of them. Over time I also noticed that the people who posted in apologetics often spent most of their time there and rarely posted elsewhere on the board, and that too was the same on other boards. Knowing that made me realize later that we all pretty much just accept as normal and even as "good", whatever we're used to doing - whatever we're told or shown is normal. It's only when the Lord shows us something isn't right that we can begin to look at it differently and discover that it's a sin and then see what His Word says is the way He wants us to act in that instance.
I came across this scripture in my study this morning: Acts 19:8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. Noticing the word "arguing" I looked it up in the original language:
Arguing: 1256 διαλέγομαι [dialegomai /dee•al•eg•om•ahee/] v. Middle voice from 1223 and 3004; TDNT 2:93; TDNTA 155; GK 1363; 13 occurrences; AV translates as “dispute” six times, “reason with” twice, “reason” twice, “preach unto” once, “preach” once, and “speak” once. 1 to think different things with one’s self, mingle thought with thought. 1a to ponder, revolve in mind. 2 to converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon
33.26 διαλέγομαιb; δημηγορέω: to speak in a somewhat formal setting and probably implying a more formal use of language—‘to address, to make a speech.’ Louw Nida
As you can see the word really shouldn't have been translated as arguing, but rather as preaching or something similar. The ESV does a better job of translating it: ESV | Ac 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. We can see that not only by the way the word is defined, but also by it’s context. Paul “argued” or preached, “persuasively.” I’ve never heard of anyone being persuaded about anything when they were being attacked or called names. People are persuaded when they’re spoken to as equals and in a gentle and loving manner that tells them that the person cares about them.
That got me started and I wanted to see just what Paul did and didn't do when he was witnessing and defending the faith. Especially when I came to the next scripture where Paul states that he was not arguing with anyone at the temple when he was telling them about the Lord. Acts 24:12 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city.
Again I looked the word "arguing" up in the original language and it was the same word as used before but the Louw Nida lexicon which refines the meaning, showed it as slightly different than the word in the previous verse, causing it to be used like what we would term as a real argument or disagreement. Arguing: 33.446 to argue about differences of opinion—‘to argue, to dispute, argument.’ Louw Nida
In this sentence we can also look at the context, and are given another word: Stirring up: 1999 n f. From the middle voice of a compound of 1909 and 4921; GK 2180 and 2194; Two occurrences; AV translates as “that which comes upon” once, and “a raising up + 4060” once. 1 a hostile banding together or concourse. 1a to excite to a riotous gathering of the people to make a mob. 1b a troublesome throng of persons seeking help, counsel, comfort. 1c throng to one.
39.34 f: to rise up in open defiance of authority, with the presumed intention to overthrow it or to act in complete opposition to its demands—‘to rebel against, to revolt, to engage in insurrection, rebellion.’ Louw Nida
The words "stirring up" show what type of speech he's talking about. So we know again that Paul was not literally arguing, fighting or upsetting others.
Paul even tells us how we're to act: “Do everything without complaining or arguing,” (Philippians 2:14) “Everything” would include defending our faith. This time the word “arguing” is different and the Louw Nida lexicon refines the meaning and shows it as an actual argument, and is the same one we saw before in Acts 24:12:
1261 [dialogismos /dee•al•og•is•mos/] n m. From 1260; TDNT 2:96; TDNTA 155; GK 1369; 14 occurrences; AV translates as “thought” nine times, “reasoning” once, “imagination” once, “doubtful” once, “disputing” once, and “doubting” once. 1 the thinking of a man deliberating with himself. 1a a thought, inward reasoning. 1b purpose, design. 2 a deliberating, questioning about what is true. 2a hesitation, doubting. 2b disputing, arguing. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon.
33.446 m: to argue about differences of opinion—‘to argue, to dispute, argument.’ Louw Nida
He also tells us more about how to act specifically related to defending the faith, but I'll get to that later. Right now I want to look at how those he would defend the faith against, spoke: “A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.” (Acts 17:18) In this verse we see the word “dispute”.
Dispute: 4820 συμβάλλω [sumballo /soom•bal•lo/] v. From 4862 and 906; GK 5202; Six occurrences; AV translates as “ponder” once, “make” once, “confer” once, “encounter” once, “help” once, and “meet with” once. 1 to throw together, to bring together. 1a to converse. 1b to bring together in one’s mind, confer with one’s self. 1c to come together, meet. 1c1 to encounter in a hostile sense. 1c2 to fight with one. 1c3 to bring together of one’s property, to contribute, aid, help.
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. 33.439 to express differences of opinion in a forceful way, involving alternative opportunities for presenting contrasting viewpoints—‘to debate, to discuss forcefully.’ Louw Nida
From this and the context we can easily determine that the unsaved people who had been listening to Paul talk, began to attack him verbally, calling him names and putting down what he’d been saying. From the context you get the idea of a large crowd that’s grown angry and that doesn’t want to hear anything else Paul has to say. Given the chance, they’d probably argue with him all day, but they wouldn’t learn anything from it, because they’d only be listening in order to get material to attack him with. They wouldn’t be listening in order to actually process or reflect on what’s being said and possibly learn from it. (and that’s something we see constantly in apologetics forums, isn’t it?)
Paul gives us some instructions for how to speak to others here: “Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:23–26)
Here again are the definitions:
Arguments: 2214 ἐκζήτησις, ζήτησις [zetesis /dzay•tay•sis/] n f. From 2212; TDNT 2:893; TDNTA 300; GK 1700 and 2428; Six occurrences; AV translates as “question” six times. 1 a seeking. 2 enquiry. 3 a questioning, debate. 4 a subject of questioning or debate, matter of controversy. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon.
33.440 f: to express forceful differences of opinion without necessarily having a presumed goal of seeking a solution—‘to dispute, dispute.’ ‘some teachers of the Law were disputing with them’ Mk 9:14. Louw Nida
quarrels: 3163 [mache /makh•ay/] n f. From 3164; TDNT 4:527; TDNTA 573; GK 3480; Four occurrences; AV translates as “fighting” twice, “strife” once, and “striving” once. 1 a fight or combat. 1a of those in arms, a battle. 1b of persons at variance, disputants etc., strife, contention. 1c a quarrel. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon.
39.23 f: serious conflict, either physical or non-physical, but clearly intensive and bitter—‘to clash severely, struggle, fight.’ Louw Nida
There’s little doubt what this means. We are told not to get into arguments and quarrels that have no goal of seeking a solution; not to get into a serious conflict, and not to generate strife between us and another person or persons we’re talking to. Instead we are to speak to them and instruct them gently and kindly, with the goal being that they would learn the truth and escape from the trap Satan has them in. This brings us to another area that we are all familiar with. Jesus tells us over and over that we are to love others and makes sure we know He means everyone – saved and unsaved alike. We are told further that we are to put the needs and desires of others ahead of our own and that we are to always, as far as it is within our means to be at peace with others. “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.” (Romans 12:18) The Lord knows that we don't really know how to love the way He does, so He went to great lengths to describe what love should look like in all kinds of situations. There's so much about it that it would take several books to even share it all. Love always speaks the Truth, it never lies, but on the other hand, love does not beat another person up with the Truth. Instead love shares the truth gently, lovingly, with the goal being to help the other person come to know it and be free. There simply is no excuse for beating someone else up with the Truth, that's not what Jesus wants us to do. He wants us to be peacemakers, and to be in a good relationship with everyone.
Let's look at another scripture that gives us more directions on how we're to act and speak: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.” (Colossians 3:16–17) The word that's translated as "admonish" in this verse actually means to counsel. In other words we are to counsel each other from God's Word. This is not telling us to rebuke others. It means to counsel, instruct, or even to correct through counseling. To clarify it further, Paul said we're to do this "with all wisdom". Wisdom is defined for us by James: “But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.” (James 3:17–18) Again then, counseling or admonishing someone does not look like an argument. It looks peaceful and loving and sincere.
We're also told: “to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.” (Titus 3:2) We should also keep in mind that slanderers are always in the lists of people who will not be in heaven. Let's make sure of what it means then:
Synonyms for slander: backbiting, backstabbing, belittlement, calumny, defamation, depreciation, disparagement, scandal, tale, malign, asperse, calumniate, defame, denigrate, libel, slur, smear, tear down. Related words: assail, attack; damage, hurt, injure; mud-slinging. Merriam-Webster’s What is seen constantly in apologetics forums. Paul makes sure we understand that we are not only not to slander others, but instead we are to bless them and be kind to those who slander us. We are given no time when we can slander others in return. “We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.” (1 Corinthians 4:12–13)
I could continue in like manner for many pages, but I think we get the idea. Defending the faith is not supposed to a time when we attack others, no matter how irritating or how evil we may think they are. What do we do then if they won't listen to us, if they just keep ignoring us or attacking us instead of attacking the topic? The Lord tells us what to do in that case as well: “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.” (Matthew 10:14) ““Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.” (Matthew 7:6) We are not to endlessly continue to defend the faith to the same people about the same thing over and over and over again. That's not what we are here for, even if we do enjoy doing that. We are here to speak the truth in love and rescue people from Satan's traps. If they refuse to listen, or if they simply continually; argue about it and/or go off topic, attack us or do any of the other things they like to do in order to avoid the topic and try to make themselves look good, we are to leave them alone. We are to calmly let them know that if and when they would truly like to hear the truth, then we will be more than happy to discuss it with them, but until then, we need to be about our Lord's business.
Can you just imagine all the forum owners shuddering when they read that? What do you suppose would happen to apologetics forums all over the internet if Christians actually did what Jesus tells us to do? Those forums would suddenly get very, very quiet, because 99% of all apologetics forums are simply full of people who want to argue for the sake of arguing. When you read any one thread, you've read them all, because the same thing goes on in all of them. Often even in the exact same words.
For years I tried talking to the people in our apologetics forum to try and get them to stop attacking each other. It got to the point where it seemed like the only thing I did all day was hand out warnings or ban people for going to far and getting to nasty in apologetics. After much prayer I finally told them all that I would ban them outright from then on because I wasn't going to have a forum on my board that was not bringing glory and honor to the Lord. They threatened that if I did that, the board would die because they would leave and no one else would come to it. I was determined to do what the Lord's Word said though regardless of what it did to the popularity of the board. The apologetics forum did more or less die after that, since they all left, but to me it was like a breath of fresh air. I no longer had to concern myself with babysitting that forum and giving out warnings and banning people. I actually had time to discuss God's Word with people who wanted to discuss it! It was great! And the board itself did just fine without the apologetics forum. Afterward though I realized how easy it was to get caught up in how the world thinks instead of what God says. After all, we all want to be popular and to succeed. In fact, that's a good part of the reason why it took me so long to fully obey the Lord and force people to stop attacking each other, because I was afraid of what people thought more than I was afraid of not obeying the Lord. I had to remember that the board belonged to Him, not me; and that He had called me to administrate the board in such a way that it would bring honor to Him in all things, and therefore I had to stand firm in what He said, not what my flesh wanted or how the world defined success.
I don't want it to sound like I never did any of those things in apologetics myself, because I did. I was every bit as bad as everyone else. I guess the only difference is that I realized I was sinning and asked for the Lord's forgiveness and for Him to show me what to do. Since I'd never even seen an apologetics forum before our own, I had simply accepted what everyone posted as what was supposed to happen in that kind of forum. It didn't even occur to me at first to question it. I did go look at apologetics forums on other Christian boards, and saw that people posted pretty much exactly the same way in all of them. Over time I also noticed that the people who posted in apologetics often spent most of their time there and rarely posted elsewhere on the board, and that too was the same on other boards. Knowing that made me realize later that we all pretty much just accept as normal and even as "good", whatever we're used to doing - whatever we're told or shown is normal. It's only when the Lord shows us something isn't right that we can begin to look at it differently and discover that it's a sin and then see what His Word says is the way He wants us to act in that instance.
You're welcome. You know I love talking about it! I just realized that this thread and the one about the time of the Rebellion or great falling away, kind of go together lol
and during my studies this morning, I remembered yet another thing He tells us about this that's pretty important. I think it's one that everyone is familiar with. Plus it goes along the lines we were just talking about. Paul was writing to the Corinthians to rebuke them for their sinful way of life after being saved, and this is what he tells them. “Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.” (1 Corinthians 4:18–20) That reminds me too of what Paul talks about in 2 Timothy 3 when he lists the characteristics of Christians during our time and shows how they will be lovers of themselves instead of God, then finally showing how all the descriptions in the first 4 verses can be explained in one sentence as “having a form of godliness but denying its power.” (2 Timothy 3:5) 
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