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Post by Cindy on Nov 4, 2016 11:45:34 GMT -5
Aha!
I didn't think about the fact that much stuff (75lbs!!!) would have quickly smothered him
I also know He was already dead...but for those who might be confused by the swoon theory....
(tho it is beyond belief anyone could have survived the terrible beating and then Crucifixion)
Still, 75 lbs of paste would certainly do it....
But I think people back then, were closer to seeing the dead than many people today, and while putting this on Jesus, most would know the difference between dead and a fainted person....
11/3/16
John 20:1-10
The Empty Tomb
My application is that there are times when it is okay to go to other believers, like Mary, when confronted with something of great magnitude.
I am not sure what it means when it says:
...."He saw and believed. v. 9 (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)"
I am not sure what 'he' ( John?) believed, if he did not understand yet, that Jesus had to rise from the dead.
Let's look at it in context then:
“Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus’ head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)” (John 20:6–9)
Peter goes into the tomb itself and sees the strips of cloth lying there. Now remember, they'd put that paste of spices all over His body and then all over the strips of cloth too, so they weren't lying flat and neatly folded. It was more like an empty cocoon, except for the face cloth. The guards had been paid to say that someone (the disciples) had stolen the body although the disciples hadn't heard that yet, but when Peter looked in and saw those wrappings, it was quite easy to see that first of all, they were still there. The wrappings hadn't been taken. Second, they weren't torn or cut up, but were whole. Now if anyone was going to steal a dead body which being in the desert would have started to smell really bad long before this, (which was part of the reason for the spices to cover that smell) they certainly wouldn't remove the cloths covering the body! Or if for some weird reason they did, they certainly wouldn't have been careful about how they were removed. They would have ripped them off and cut them away from the body. Peter saw the conditions the wrappings were in though, and could see that nothing of the sort could have happened. There was only one way the wrappings could look like they did, and that was if the body somehow moved through the wrappings without disturbing them and left them behind, or if the body had simply vanished! Plus, the cloth that had covered the Lord's face had been neatly folded and placed in a separate place by itself.
By the way, the word used for when Peter "looked" is one which means that he looked attentively, it wasn't a quick glance. Remember, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, he came out of the tomb still wrapped in the grave clothes and had to be freed from them. But Jesus didn't, His glorified body simply passed through them, just as later He would pass through the locked door!
Remember too that what we're reading is what John himself wrote. This is his personal testimony of when he came to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead! The next part says that "they", meaning all the disciples, still didn't understand from scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead. Notice that it doesn't say they didn't understand that He had risen, but instead says they didn't understand that it foretold this in the scriptures, or that scripture said that it had to happen. So Peter believed Jesus had risen from the dead, but didn't understand the scriptures both foretold it and said it had to happen and why it had to happen. If you go back and read the verses in question that I posted, I think you'll understand it fine now. (although you may want to make a note in your bible by the verses to remember it by)
I had an idea today that I thought might be helpful to you if you're interested. It's something you can either put in your notebook or write it separately now and add it to your notebook when you're done. I'm thinking that this could be something you could work on over the weekend if you're not to busy. If you're interested, my idea is that you start a list of all the reasons you can think of that you know you are saved. You could simply write at the top of the page, "How I know I am saved", and then start a list and add to it whenever you think of something else. Obviously, you'd need to pray about it and ask the Lord to help you with the list and then you'd need to spend some time reflecting on it in order to get it started. After that, then throughout the weekend as you talk the Lord, I'm sure He will point out other reasons to you, and may even show you some in scripture as you continue your daily reading. If you're too busy this weekend, then maybe next weekend you could do it....whenever you can is fine. But I think it might help you get over your doubts if you keep at it. Then, I'd like to eventually go over it with you and hopefully we can add even more to it as time goes by. What do you think? Or would this be too much work for you?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399 
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Post by fearnot on Nov 4, 2016 14:16:22 GMT -5
You were right on....I so glossed over the words: "from Scripture,
I am not even sure I read them,
and now
it makes perfect sense!!
Thank you soooooo much!
Your idea is perfect, I will hopefully get started soon....I still have to do the actual Bible study of course.....
Not only have we lost contact with death,
we have lost soooo much.....
and gained so much....
evil that is sooooo subtitle ( it sometimes takes awhile to uncover it)
and 'ugliness disguised in a cloak of what 'seems' to be beauty.
It makes me wonder if satan (and his demons) can for a time, put on the 'outer' beauty they had in Heaven....and present themselves to man in that magnificent exquisiteness.
I am beginning to wonder if not most ( if not all) entertainment is 'sponsored' by satan ( so that in addition to schools) he can fish for men's souls, in a seemingly unlimited fashion ( thru actors, musicians, models) etc. etc.
Oh....Leonard was asking me to check with you to be sure I really understood you to say that you could send me books from your kindle fire to mine if I had one?
And if so, could we do a test to be sure it works and he understands how or what we have to do....
by having you send a book to his kindle
( then he will either give me his kindle, or buy me a new one....for Christmas).
By the way, the first thing that comes to mind on my new project, is I think I am saved because there is a growing 'me' that is soooooo different from the rebellious, bitter, depressed, hopeless, monstrously sinful 'me'.
I suppose the miraculously differences are of such a nature as to be like 2 different people at war....
a psych would claim ( and have) that I am bi-polar
or
even have a fractured /schizophrenic personality......
But that is NOT what it is....yes, there are 2 personalities at war....the sinful 'man' and the reborn from God one
but it is NOT a psychological issue ....
it is totally spiritual.
But of course, it is when the 'old' monstrously sinful old man wins/sins that I start to doubt ( I have been greatly helped by you to understand that because, each time that happens I truly hate sin more ( and that would be another sign I think I am saved)
but I get so discouraged and wonder why 'repentance' doesn't last once and for all.
I wonder why, can't I go thru life
like going thru a list
and check off.....once and forever
each sin ( even if its one sin per year or month or week)
Like for example:
this year selfishness
next year sexually impure thoughts
next year fear
etc etc etc etc.
But once 'repented' they are gone forever and ever.....never to plague me again.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 4, 2016 14:27:56 GMT -5
11/4/16
John 20: 11-18
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
The application I took for me, was to be more like Mary and to be honest no matter if I sound foolish or naive.
I mean she could have thought I better not say why I am crying because it might sound like a silly woman....
I am just guessing, that it was not the normal practice to remove dead bodies and take them to a different location?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 5, 2016 15:34:45 GMT -5
11/5/16
John:20:19-31
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
Jesus goes thru locked doors, says: "Peace be with you" 2 times,breaths the Holy Spirit on the disciples, and talks to them about forgiveness....
My application from that part, is to forgive people their sins against me
Jesus Appears to Thomas
Thomas would not believe until he saw the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, so the next week when Jesus came, he already knew what Thomas had said...so Jesus had Thomas touch those points and then said to Thomas....
And as an application to me:
"Stop doubting and believe"
Which so happens to be....
The Purpose of John’s Gospel...
......written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 6, 2016 15:05:55 GMT -5
11/6/16
John 21:1-12
Jesus and the Miraculous Catch of Fish
My application is if Jesus tells me to toss my net here or there I need to do what He says immediately.
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Post by Cindy on Nov 7, 2016 11:53:34 GMT -5
You were right on....I so glossed over the words: "from Scripture,
I am not even sure I read them,
and now
it makes perfect sense!!
Thank you soooooo much!
Your idea is perfect, I will hopefully get started soon....I still have to do the actual Bible study of course.....
Not only have we lost contact with death,
we have lost soooo much.....
and gained so much....
evil that is sooooo subtitle ( it sometimes takes awhile to uncover it)
and 'ugliness disguised in a cloak of what 'seems' to be beauty.
It makes me wonder if satan (and his demons) can for a time, put on the 'outer' beauty they had in Heaven....and present themselves to man in that magnificent exquisiteness.
I am beginning to wonder if not most ( if not all) entertainment is 'sponsored' by satan ( so that in addition to schools) he can fish for men's souls, in a seemingly unlimited fashion ( thru actors, musicians, models) etc. etc.
Oh....Leonard was asking me to check with you to be sure I really understood you to say that you could send me books from your kindle fire to mine if I had one?
And if so, could we do a test to be sure it works and he understands how or what we have to do....
by having you send a book to his kindle
( then he will either give me his kindle, or buy me a new one....for Christmas).
By the way, the first thing that comes to mind on my new project, is I think I am saved because there is a growing 'me' that is soooooo different from the rebellious, bitter, depressed, hopeless, monstrously sinful 'me'.
I suppose the miraculously differences are of such a nature as to be like 2 different people at war....
a psych would claim ( and have) that I am bi-polar
or
even have a fractured /schizophrenic personality......
But that is NOT what it is....yes, there are 2 personalities at war....the sinful 'man' and the reborn from God one
but it is NOT a psychological issue ....
it is totally spiritual.
But of course, it is when the 'old' monstrously sinful old man wins/sins that I start to doubt ( I have been greatly helped by you to understand that because, each time that happens I truly hate sin more ( and that would be another sign I think I am saved)
but I get so discouraged and wonder why 'repentance' doesn't last once and for all.
I wonder why, can't I go thru life
like going thru a list
and check off.....once and forever
each sin ( even if its one sin per year or month or week)
Like for example:
this year selfishness
next year sexually impure thoughts
next year fear
etc etc etc etc.
But once 'repented' they are gone forever and ever.....never to plague me again.
Yes, I'd be glad to send a book to Leonard's kindle as a test. I'll have to learn how to do it, as I've never done it before. I don't know anyone that has a kindle, so haven't been able to share before. My understanding is that it works a lot like getting a book from a library would. It's considered a "loan" and I think it lasts for 2 weeks. Let me see what the help forum says about it. I'll paste it all here so we'll both be able to figure it out:
You can lend a Kindle book to another reader for up to 14 days. The borrower does not need to own a Fire tablet or Kindle e-reader and can read the book after downloading a free Kindle reading app.
A Kindle book can only be loaned one time. Magazines and newspapers are not currently available for lending.
Loan a Kindle Book from the Product Detail Page
You can loan eligible Kindle books from the product detail page of a book you purchased on Amazon.
During the loan period, you will not be able to read the book that you loaned.
To loan a Kindle book:
Go to the Kindle Store from your computer, and then locate the title you'd like to loan.
On the product detail page, click Loan this book. You will be sent to the Loan this book page.
Enter the recipient's email address and an optional message.
Note: Be sure to send the Kindle book loan notification to the recipient's personal email address and not their Send to Kindle email address.
Click Send now.
Note: If the loan is not accepted after seven days, the book will then become available in your content library and you will be able to loan the book again.
Loan a Kindle Book from Manage Your Content and Devices
You can loan eligible Kindle books from the page. During the loan period, you will not be able to read the book that you loaned.
To loan a book:
Go to Manage Your Content and Devices.
Select the Actions button for the title that you want to loan, and then select Loan this title. If Loan this title is not an option, lending is not available for that title.
Enter the recipient's email address and an optional message.
Note: Be sure to send the Kindle book loan notification to the recipient's personal email address and not their Send to Kindle email address.
Click Send now.
Borrow from a Friend
You can borrow a Kindle book from a friend. When the book is available, you will receive an email notification that will allow you to download the book to your Fire tablet, Kindle e-reader, or supported Kindle reading app.
To download a borrowed book:
Open the email message "A Loaned Book for You."
Click the Get your loaned book now button. Your web browser will automatically launch to Amazon so you can accept the loan.
Sign in to your Amazon account.
If you have a Fire tablet, Kindle e-reader, or Kindle reading app, select which device you would like the book to be delivered to, and then click Accept loaned book.
If you do not have a Fire tablet, Kindle e-reader, or Kindle reading app, click Accept loaned book and follow the on-screen instructions to download a free Kindle reading app.
Return a Loaned Book
To return a loaned Kindle book:
Go to Manage Your Content and Devices.
Select the Actions button next to the borrowed book, and then select Delete from library.
Click Yes to confirm the return.
www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_rel_topic?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200549320
Since the book I send can only be loaned once, I'll send one you most likely won't want to read LOL
I think from what it says that you have to have an Amazon account. If you don't already have one, it's free and not a big deal. But if Leonard has a Kindle, I suspect he must have an Amazon account.... So I'll need that in order to send you the book. Just send it to me in a PM ok?
11/4/16
John 20: 11-18
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
The application I took for me, was to be more like Mary and to be honest no matter if I sound foolish or naive.
I mean she could have thought I better not say why I am crying because it might sound like a silly woman....
I am just guessing, that it was not the normal practice to remove dead bodies and take them to a different location?
I think that's a good application, I imagine she was scared to death to be speaking to angels in the first place, and that probably prevented her from doing much "thinking" at all. Then, when Jesus asked her why she was crying, she didn't realize it was Him, and so again would have thought nothing of simply saying whatever was true - that someone had taken His body.
People wonder why she didn't recognize Him and have come up with all kinds of explanations for it, some which are, to me, pretty silly. If you think about it, we tend to see what we expect to see and we most certainly don't expect to see someone we had recently buried! that's simply how our minds work and has been proven over and over again. In fact, it's even biblical. The bible tells us that we will find what we look for, we'll see what we want to see: if we're looking for bad, we'll find it, if we're looking for good, then we'll see that in others, etc. She was crying, and her head would have been down, she wasn't staring at the person who spoke to her - she simply glanced up, saw someone was speaking to her, and again instantly put her head back down since she was crying. It's the natural thing to do. He mind would have interpreted her quick look at the man, to simply be "a man". She looked quickly but was able to realize it wasn't someone she knew well (of any of those she might have expected to see there - friend or foe. Because she didn't expect to see Jesus, she didn't recognize Him. It wasn't until He called her attention back to Himself by speaking her name that she realized who He was. So she was looking down crying, looked up, saw "a man", then looked back down still crying, and then when He called her name, instead of just quickly looking up and then putting her head down again, she looked up and actually looked at Him, and then finally realized who it really was. Same thing any of us would likely do in her situation. 11/5/16
John:20:19-31
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
Jesus goes thru locked doors, says: "Peace be with you" 2 times,breaths the Holy Spirit on the disciples, and talks to them about forgiveness....
My application from that part, is to forgive people their sins against me
Jesus Appears to Thomas
Thomas would not believe until he saw the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, so the next week when Jesus came, he already knew what Thomas had said...so Jesus had Thomas touch those points and then said to Thomas....
And as an application to me:
"Stop doubting and believe"
Which so happens to be....
The Purpose of John’s Gospel...
......written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
Stop doubting and believe sounds good, but as you know, we can't just stop something, we have to put something in it's place, and often people work hard at the "stopping" part, not realizing that they've missed the point. You can't stop. Instead you have to work on the "believing" part, and the stopping will take care of itself. I know you're aware of all that, but had to say it just in case someone else reads this that doesn't know that.
11/6/16
John 21:1-12
Jesus and the Miraculous Catch of Fish
My application is if Jesus tells me to toss my net here or there I need to do what He says immediately.
Did you notice that even though Jesus had asked them if they had any fish, when they got to shore, He already had fished cooked for their breakfast! He thinks of everything and is always totally prepared to take good care of us. He knew they'd be hungry after fishing, and He was prepared to take care of their needs, just as He will always take care of us too.
We're told too that they caught 153 fish. I wonder when they counted them and can only imagine how shocked and thrilled they were with the catch. That catch would pay their bills while they were doing the Lord's work. So Jesus not only took care of their immediate need for breakfast, but also took care that their families would be cared for while they were working for Him. Jesus even had to tell them to bring the net full of fish up on the shore as they were so caught up in Him. Otherwise they might have just left it, like Peter did when He jumped in the water. Their minds weren't on the fish at that point, they just wanted to be with Him. But He knew they'd need the money the fish would bring to take care of their families, so He made sure the fish were safe on the shore. By the way, scholars have calculated that there must have been around a half a ton of fish in that net, so we can see that it would have provided for their families well!
Also, remember, the last time we saw Nathaniel, was under the fig tree, and Jesus told him: “Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that.”” (John 1:50) and Nathaniel certainly saw ‘greater things than these’ when he met the resurrected Jesus that day!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 7, 2016 16:13:54 GMT -5
Thank you as always
I think I picked the stop doubting part because every now and again, I get slammed with a moment of doubt.....
I am not sure, but I remember my adopted mom ( who took me to church for a year or so), but later would say to me, when you die, that's it, you get buried in the ground, but 'you' don't exist anymore.
The one hopeful thing was that when she died she had been reading the Bible.
Anyway, every once in awhile, that thought comes to torment me....and one can't have peace, without 'believing' and no peace ( even if we forgive someone we have to believe on Jesus....not doubt of 'nothing-ing-ness' as the true reality as my mom used to claim....
so anyway, the 'stop doubting and believe really impacted and spoke to me that day.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 7, 2016 16:42:30 GMT -5
11/7/16
John 21: 15-25
Jesus Reinstates Peter
If I had a choice I would rather be John, but frankly, I think I am more Peter-ish.
Peter feels hurt Jesus has to ask him 3 times if Peter loves him....I could see Jesus having to ask me many more times,
and then,
Peter seems jealous of what Peter thinks as Jesus more special love of John ( yup that would be me too).
Nevertheless, the application for me would be what Jesus told Peter ( tho on a much lesser playing field) to feed and take care of His sheep and follow Him.
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Post by Cindy on Nov 8, 2016 13:37:12 GMT -5
Thank you as always
I think I picked the stop doubting part because every now and again, I get slammed with a moment of doubt.....
I am not sure, but I remember my adopted mom ( who took me to church for a year or so), but later would say to me, when you die, that's it, you get buried in the ground, but 'you' don't exist anymore.
The one hopeful thing was that when she died she had been reading the Bible.
Anyway, every once in awhile, that thought comes to torment me....and one can't have peace, without 'believing' and no peace ( even if we forgive someone we have to believe on Jesus....not doubt of 'nothing-ing-ness' as the true reality as my mom used to claim....
so anyway, the 'stop doubting and believe really impacted and spoke to me that day. 11/7/16
John 21: 15-25
Jesus Reinstates Peter
If I had a choice I would rather be John, but frankly, I think I am more Peter-ish.
Peter feels hurt Jesus has to ask him 3 times if Peter loves him....I could see Jesus having to ask me many more times,
19:26
and then,
Peter seems jealous of what Peter thinks as Jesus more special love of John ( yup that would be me too).
Nevertheless, the application for me would be what Jesus told Peter ( tho on a much lesser playing field) to feed and take care of His sheep and follow Him.
I don't understand how you get Peter being Jealous of John from John 19:26 - when Jesus gave His mother into John's care when He died. Peter's not even mentioned in that scene and that scene isn't in any of the other gospels. The last time Peter's mentioned is Matthew 26:75, Mark 14:72, Luke 22:61, & John 18:27. Then the next time after Jesus dies that Peter's mentioned is: Luke 24:12, John 20:2 & in Matthew 28:16–18 as part of all the disciples, and it's the same with Mark. I doubt if Peter even knew it had happened until later and I don't think he'd be jealous, as it meant that the person would have to support the Lord's mother and take care of her as if she was their own mother, which would be a big responsibility.
I know it's long, but please read this next part carefully as it's very important for you ok? (not just you, everyone really, but you too LOL)
Mostly though we have to remember that at that specific point in time, Peter most likely thought he was done as a disciple, since he'd denied even knowing the Lord. He was feeling very depressed about how he'd acted and on top of that grieving over what he saw as the loss of Jesus since He'd died. For that reason alone I doubt there was any jealousy at all. Peter was pretty involved with himself at that point as most are when they're depressed.
That's why Jesus asked Peter if he still loved Him. It wasn't because Jesus didn't know, because He did know that Peter loved Him, after all, He's God. He wanted Peter to really know that he loved Jesus and wanted Peter to realize that he'd been forgiven even before He'd denied Him. Remember that Jesus had told Peter beforehand that He would pray for him so he could strengthen the other disciples when he came back. “But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”” (Luke 22:32) But Peter was just as filled with self doubt and self loathing as we are all, so he didn't think about what Jesus had said about turning back. He just thought about how horrible he was. He was obviously overjoyed when He saw Jesus though, but I'm sure that inside, once he'd had a few seconds to remember his sin, that he was also still thinking that Jesus wouldn't want anything to do with him anymore. Look again at what Jesus said to Peter in context now: “But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”” (Luke 22:32–34) Do you see how Peter bragged about how he would even die for Jesus? And that's in the other gospels too at different times when Jesus warned him about this. So now, in John 21, Jesus wants Peter to know that He still loves Him, that he's still forgiven, and he's still His disciple and still the leader of the group. He's telling Peter that He'd known all along what would happen and how Peter would sin and let Him down, but that He'd died for that sin along with all the others, and loved Him anyway. He loved Peter before his sin, during his sin and after his sin, and knew Peter would sin again, and would love him forever anyway. All these things that Jesus is trying to get across to Peter, He also tries to get across to us. Peter could not lose the love of the Lord, or his salvation, and neither can we.
Now why did Jesus ask Peter if he loved Him 3 times instead of just once or maybe twice? Many people think He says it 3 times because Peter denied Him 3 times, that's fine, expect that Peter actually denied the Lord 6 times, which is exactly what Jesus predicted He would do. If you don't already understand that, we can get into that another time. Just ask ok? I can't remember if we got this far when we studied the gospels. I'm going to quote from MacArthur to explain this, although it's explained similarly in several of my commentaries; but MacArthur's is not only the shortest, but he does a good job of explaining even though it's short.
First though, notice that Jesus greeted Peter with love and fed him a good breakfast before He got down to business, and also, when He did get down to business, Jesus went back to calling Peter, "Simon", which means someone who wavers, or doubts, while "Peter" meant someone who was solid like a rock. Finally, also keep in mind that there were others there listening to this. Jesus was not alone with Peter. John 21:2 says that besides Jesus and Peter, Thomas, Nathanael, John and James, and two other disciples were there, so that's a total of 8 people including Jesus and Peter who witnessed this.
When Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him, He used a word for love that signified total commitment. Peter responded with a word for love that signified his love for Jesus, but not necessarily his total commitment. This was not because he was reluctant to express that greater love, but because he had been disobedient and denied the Lord in the past. He was, perhaps, now reluctant to make a claim of supreme devotion when, in the past, his life did not support such a claim. Jesus pressed home to Peter the need for unswerving devotion by repeatedly asking Peter if he loved Him supremely. The essential message here is that Jesus demands total commitment from His followers. Their love for Him must place Him above their love for all else. Jesus confronted Peter with love because He wanted Peter to lead the apostles (Mt 16:18), but in order for Peter to be an effective shepherd, his overwhelming drive must exemplify supreme love for his Lord.
Also, when Jesus asked if he loved Him "more than these" He meant more than the other disciples who were witnessing this at the time. He asked that also because if you recall, Peter had bragged that he loved Jesus more then the other disciples did before he denied Him. (Matt. 26:33) The other disciples couldn't hold Peter's sin against him though, because they had all deserted Him then too. It's important that Jesus did this publicly for a number of reasons. First, he wanted no more doubt in Peter's mind about his salvation or his place as a disciple and apostle; He also wanted no doubt in the minds of the rest of his disciples. But also, since Peter had denied Him publicly, he therefore had to be held accountable publicly.
We're told in John 21:17 that Peter was hurt when Jesus asked him that question a third time, and Jesus knew he would be hurt by it. So why did He ask it again? (besides what MacArthur explained) Jesus wasn't just dealing with the words that were spoken, but was dealing with what was in Peter's heart. He was dealing with all Peter's doubts and feelings of worthlessness. I'm not suggesting that 3 is a magic number and that if we want to get someone out of depression or something similar, that all we have to do is ask them a question 3 times. We can't duplicate what Jesus did by copying Him in this, because we're not God. He could see into Peter's heart and knew exactly what Peter was thinking each time He asked that question. Not only that, but Peter also knew that Jesus knew what he was thinking and feeling. By the time Jesus commanded Peter to follow Him in John 21:19, Peter had been fully and completely forgiven and restored to his former position. That's why he felt comfortable enough to ask about John and what would happen to him. He asked that only because Jesus had just told him how he would die, so out of curiosity he wondered how his friend would die.
Lastly, it's good to realize how different Peter's feelings were, compared to those of Judas who was never saved. When Peter said for the 3rd time that Jesus knew he loved Him, He was accepting the Lord's forgiveness and was reconciled with Him. Look what's said about Judas: “When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”” (Matthew 27:3–4) the KJV actually uses the word "repented" instead of saying he felt remorse, which is not what the word in the original language means. Remorse & regret are not the same as repentance. Even the unsaved realize that. How many shows have you seen where someone says they're really sorry, but they're going to have to kill you anyway, or something similar? He had been indwelt by Satan and Satan uses feelings of despair and guilt to drive people to self-destruction. He preys on the hopeless and convinces them that there is no hope or help. Satan is a murderer & a destroyer. He comes first as the deceiving serpent but then turns into the destroying lion (1 Pet 5:8). Anyway, what Judas felt was human remorse. He was "sorry" for what he'd done but not sorry enough to repent of it and ask the Lord's forgiveness. He couldn't do that by then anyway, as he had hardened his heart so much that it would have been impossible for him at that point. That's what happens when the unsaved keep hardening their hearts and not accepting God's gift of salvation. For the believer that hardens his heart, they wind up losing their relationship with the Lord and no longer hear His voice. (because they have refused to obey Him so often)
But Peter loved the Lord, even though he had denied Him 6 times. His denials were sins and he knew it and he felt awful about it. He felt awful about how he'd bragged beforehand and then failed. He was embarrassed, he felt worthless, and like he'd failed and would never be allowed to be part of the Lord's work again. But he went to the Lord. He did not run away from Him. He let Jesus know how he felt and he accepted the Lord's forgiveness and let the Lord take away all his shame and guilt. Because of that, from the moment Jesus commanded him to "follow me" again, there at the end of the chapter, Peter could stand tall with his head up, knowing that the Lord loved him, that he was forgiven and saved and totally restored! It's something we all need to reflect on for ourselves so that we too can know we're forgiven, saved and restored. So we don't allow Satan to do to us what he did to Judas.
How about if from this point on we work on the subject of your salvation together? If you want to start with Romans next, that's fine, and we'll talk about how we can do this tomorrow ok?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 8, 2016 14:07:47 GMT -5
11/8/16
Romans 1:1-17
Paul is Longing to Visit Romes so that he may impart some "spiritual gift to make you strong"
When I read that, I said to Jesus: I need that too, a spiritual gift to make me strong!
my application is to not be ashamed of the gospel, tho surely the world does it best to make me and many other believers who are not strong.... to be ashamed...
"For I am by not ashamed of the gospel"
and also to live by faith....not always easy to do either.....the world does it's best to keep me in fear and fear is not faith ( going back to my 'name': fear NOT!!):
"......The righteous will live by faith"
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 8, 2016 14:31:19 GMT -5
I can't tell you how helpful that was!!!!! Thank you so much.
I would like to know about the 6 times rather than 3 for sure and also would definitely absolutely like to work with you about my salvation....and as you can see, LOL I did start on Romans.
Again, thank you.
I had mentioned 2 indications that I thought pointed towards being saved ( hating my sins, and having 2 different natures).
Wanting to know and understand God's Word could be a 3rd, but then, I do think there are, and have been, in the past, many people 'interested' very very much in the Bible, but they were not saved.
I want to know Jesus better, thru His Word, to be more obedient, to be able to sometimes pray in more assurance it is acceptable because knowing His Word, I know it is His will...etc.
I don't think there is anything more important!!!
tho I do get 'caught up' in the world....I also find myself, less and less intrigued with the world
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Post by Cindy on Nov 9, 2016 13:50:34 GMT -5
11/8/16
Romans 1:1-17
Paul is Longing to Visit Romes so that he may impart some "spiritual gift to make you strong"
When I read that, I said to Jesus: I need that too, a spiritual gift to make me strong!
my application is to not be ashamed of the gospel, tho surely the world does it best to make me and many other believers who are not strong.... to be ashamed...
"For I am by not ashamed of the gospel"
and also to live by faith....not always easy to do either.....the world does it's best to keep me in fear and fear is not faith ( going back to my 'name': fear NOT!!):
"......The righteous will live by faith"  good! But we need to slow way down, or else do more on each section lol. Let's look at that spiritual gift you said you needed too. The term jumped out at me as well when I was studying it. It means a spiritual enablement by God. Part of the "gift" would be that they would learn to understand the gospel and all that Christ had for them. I got excited about this word because lately I've been thanking the Lord for all the spiritual blessings He's given me through Christ. “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” (Ephesians 1:3) I'd also asked Him to show me what those blessings were as I wasn't sure I knew them, or at least not all of them. Then I began studying Roman's LOL. And here's some of what I've discovered about all those blessings He has given us. First, the term "spiritual Blessings" is the same as "spiritual gift" so these two different scriptures are speaking about the same things. Here are what some of those blessings, or gifts are:
Peace with God; Access to God; Our Glorious hope, developing Christian character in me, God's love within; Salvation from future wrath; Reconciliation with God, love, joy, adoption as God's child, patience, gentleness, power to fight sin, goodness, self-control, fruitfulness, peace, the mind of Christ, freedom, faithfulness, no condemnation, truth, unity, power to serve others, God's presence and indwelling, the promise of future perfection, wisdom, life, & the power to live for God. Finally the blessings or gifts also include the ability to know and understand what God's Word is telling us, and the ability to apply it to our lives now. Now I ask Him to give me wisdom to take advantage of all the spiritual resources available to me.
Paul wants to give them a spiritual gift, a spiritual blessing. He wants them to understand the Gospel and how to apply it to their own lives. This gift, he not only winds up giving them, but he gives it to us as well as we study the book of Romans.
“I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.” (Romans 1:11–12) He wants to make us strong and encourage us and be encouraged by us. Of course we can't personally encourage him anymore since he's now with the Lord, but we can learn from what he's said here, and understand that this is a part of the function of God's church, the body of Christ, and one of the reasons why we're told not to ever give up meeting together. We often whine that we need encouragement, and yet we avoid doing the very things that God uses today to grant us that encouragement. God gives us encouragement through His Word, and through other members of the body of Christ, including our pastor, when we meet together to worship God and learn more about Him.
“I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles.” (Romans 1:13) The word translated "harvest" here, actually means "fruit". So he's not talking about converting people to christianity - after all, they've already been saved. MacArthur says: Scripture catalogs 3 kinds of spiritual fruit: 1) spiritual attitudes that characterize a Spirit-led believer (Gal 5:22, 23); 2) righteous actions (Romans 6:22; Php 4:16-17; Heb 13:15); and 3) new converts (Romans 16:5). In this context, Paul is probably referring to new converts . But like I said, he's writing to people who already are saved, and while I'm sure he hopes to win new converts too, I think he's also speaking mainly about helping them become mature in Christ. Yet in the next verse he says he's eager to preach the gospel to them.... I think it would help if we knew a little more about the background of this letter. Let me quote from MacArthur again: Paul’s primary purpose in writing Romans was to teach the great truths of the gospel of grace to believers who had never received apostolic instruction. The letter also introduced him to a church where he was personally unknown, but hoped to visit soon for several important reasons: to edify the believers (Romans 1:11); to preach the gospel (Romans 1:15); and to get to know the Roman Christians, so they could encourage him (Romans 1:12; Romans 15:32), better pray for him (Romans 15:30), and help him with his planned ministry in Spain (Romans 15:28).
Unlike some of Paul’s other epistles (e.g., 1, 2 Cor., Gal.), his purpose for writing was not to correct incorrect theology or rebuke ungodly living. The Roman church was doctrinally sound, but, like all churches, it was in need of the rich theological teaching and practical instruction this letter provides. The MacArthur Bible handbook
And that's exactly what we need. We know the gospel, we're not baby Christians, but we still and always will need to have the deeper meanings taught to us and the practical instruction as well. In other words, Paul was giving them the meat they needed, just as he is giving it to us now too.
I want to take you back to verse 5 for a minute: “Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:5–6) So many people think that all they have to do is "believe" and they'll be saved. Especially since that's what the bible says. The problem is that the word "believe" that's used in the bible and what we mean by it now, aren't exactly the same. When the bible talks about believing, it's speaking of knowing something so that you can obey it. Because when you truly believe something, it changes you. If we truly believed that unicorns exist, we would look for them, and we would want to study them and mostly we'd want to experience riding one! Much more importantly, if we truly believe that Jesus is God and that He died for our sins and rose again, and is alive now and will always be alive, it's got to change how we act, how we think, etc. That's why faith without works isn't any good. It's why demons aren't saved even though they "believe", etc.
Ok, let's look at the last couple of verses here, which are very important ones: “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”” (Romans 1:16–17) Why would Paul or anyone else be ashamed of the gospel? Well, let's put ourselves back in the time when Paul was writing this. Paul wrote this letter before Rome smashed Israel and took all the Jew's left alive as slaves. So at this time, the Jew's in Rome who had become Christians, weren't all slaves, although some were. But even those who weren't slaves weren't respected much as they were just commoners. Jew's everywhere, never really have been. They were looked down on and thought of as barbaric really. They weren't philosophers like the Greeks, (in the eyes of the rest of civilization anyway) nor were they warriors like the Romans, so to the people, they were basically nothing at all, and had nothing to offer. On top of that, to people who worshiped all kinds of different gods, they simply couldn't wrap their minds around the idea of anyone only believing in one God. To them that was a ridiculous as saying the sky was green! Then when they became Christians, they were put even lower down as far as status in those days went. Their "gospel" as far as the Romans were concerned was ridiculous as it was about a very poor (which in their eyes meant the person couldn't be at all worthwhile) Jewish (lowered them even more) carpenter who had been crucified - and that finished it for the Romans as only the very worst dregs of society were ever crucified. Why in the world would anyone want to worship someone who'd been crucified??? Who would want to put their faith in a crucified Jew? Of course they then said He rose from the dead, but who but someone who's very superstitious would believe such a story? At this time, and continuing into the time after Jerusalem fell, Rome was horribly wicked. In fact, it was very much like the US is now. The philosopher Seneca called the city of Rome “a cesspool of iniquity”; and the writer Juvenal called it a “filthy sewer into which the dregs of the empire flood.” Of course the Romans didn't think that about themselves, anymore than the people in the US do now. Instead they thought they were very enlightened. Paul wasn't ashamed of God's message of the Gospel though because he knew that he had the only thing that could change men's lives, and that's also true of us now. As wicked and evil as people today are, we carry their only hope! We, like Paul, can explain to people that God doesn't expect us to change so we can be saved, He knows that's impossible. Instead, He saves us and by His power, He changes us and gives us a brand new life! It's all about God's power, not ours. This salvation was offered to the Jew's first, and was now offered to all men so that all could be saved. Paul always went to the Jew's first when he went into a city to tell them about Christ, as did all the apostles, even though Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. He did that because he knew that Salvation came from the Jew's and was to be offered to them first. Only when they refused to hear it anymore did he go to the gentiles. We no longer have to do that, as Jesus and the apostles took care of offering it to the Jew's first. We still have to witness to them if we know any Jew's, but we don't have to seek out Jew's to tell before we tell others.
The theme of the letter is expressed in the phrase "a righteousness from God is revealed" in Romans 1:17, and is the key verse of the letter . God’s righteousness is revealed in the Gospel; for in the death of Christ, God revealed His righteousness by punishing sin; and in the resurrection of Christ, He revealed His righteousness by making salvation available to the believing sinner. The problem “How can a holy God ever forgive sinners and still be holy?” is answered in the Gospel. Through the death and resurrection of Christ, God is seen to be “both just and justifier.” (Rom. 3:26). Romans 1:17 tells us: by "faith from first to last” - in other words: “by faith alone”! The goal of being justified is that we be sanctified; in other words, the goal is Christlikeness, or the righteous character of God in us. Righteousness is not only a legal pronouncement, it is a holy life. It's God restoring His image in mankind.
This is the very verse that changed Martin Luther’s life & theology! The Protestant Reformation & the Wesleyan Revival were both the fruit of studying Romans and in particularly this verse. I'd say that Paul certainly did bestow a spiritual blessing/gift on those who study this letter!
"the righteous will live by faith" This expression emphasizes that true faith is not a single event, but a way of life—it endures. That endurance is called the perseverance of the saints. That's the central theme of the story of Job. Perseverance and enduring are things we hear about constantly in God's Word.
As you continue to read Romans, try to look for not only it's application for you now, but also how it's showing you ways you can know that you are saved.
I can't tell you how helpful that was!!!!! Thank you so much.
I would like to know about the 6 times rather than 3 for sure and also would definitely absolutely like to work with you about my salvation....and as you can see, LOL I did start on Romans.
Again, thank you.
I had mentioned 2 indications that I thought pointed towards being saved ( hating my sins, and having 2 different natures).
Wanting to know and understand God's Word could be a 3rd, but then, I do think there are, and have been, in the past, many people 'interested' very very much in the Bible, but they were not saved.
I want to know Jesus better, thru His Word, to be more obedient, to be able to sometimes pray in more assurance it is acceptable because knowing His Word, I know it is His will...etc.
I don't think there is anything more important!!!
tho I do get 'caught up' in the world....I also find myself, less and less intrigued with the world
Wanting to know God and His Word better is also another way to know you're saved. So is wanting to be obedient. And being less and less intrigued with the world is also another one.
OK, if you want to know about the six times Peter denied the Lord, we'll do that tomorrow. So for tomorrow just read what I wrote in reply to you above and we'll continue with Roman's after we finish with Peter's denials.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 9, 2016 20:39:12 GMT -5
11/9/19
Romans 1:18-28
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
There is so much info in just these 10 verses!!
My application is to consider
it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God,
so that, God will not give me over to a depraved mind
( which I unfortunately have had from time to time).
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Post by Cindy on Nov 10, 2016 11:24:40 GMT -5
11/9/19
Romans 1:18-28
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
There is so much info in just these 10 verses!!
My application is to consider
it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God,
so that, God will not give me over to a depraved mind
( which I unfortunately have had from time to time).
These are the main scriptures we'll be looking at.
“Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: “ ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.” Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.” “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” But Peter declared, “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.” And all the other disciples said the same.” (Matthew 26:31–35)
““You will all fall away,” Jesus told them, “for it is written: “ ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.’ But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.” Peter declared, “Even if all fall away, I will not.” “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice you yourself will disown me three times.” But Peter insisted emphatically, “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.” And all the others said the same.” (Mark 14:27–31)
“Then seizing him, they led him away and took him into the house of the high priest. Peter followed at a distance. But when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and had sat down together, Peter sat down with them.” (Luke 22:54–55)
“and brought him first to Annas, who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, the high priest that year. Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it would be good if one man died for the people. Simon Peter and another disciple were following Jesus. Because this disciple was known to the high priest, he went with Jesus into the high priest’s courtyard, but Peter had to wait outside at the door. The other disciple, who was known to the high priest, came back, spoke to the girl on duty there and brought Peter in. “You are not one of his disciples, are you?” the girl at the door asked Peter. He replied, “I am not.” It was cold, and the servants and officials stood around a fire they had made to keep warm. Peter also was standing with them, warming himself. Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. “I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said.” When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. “Is this the way you answer the high priest?” he demanded. “If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”” (John 18:13–23)
“While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by. When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him. “You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus,” she said. But he denied it. “I don’t know or understand what you’re talking about,” he said, and went out into the entryway.” (Mark 14:66–68)
“A servant girl saw him seated there in the firelight. She looked closely at him and said, “This man was with him.” But he denied it. “Woman, I don’t know him,” he said. A little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.” “Man, I am not!” Peter replied.” (Luke 22:56–58)
“As Simon Peter stood warming himself, he was asked, “You are not one of his disciples, are you?” He denied it, saying, “I am not.” One of the high priest’s servants, a relative of the man whose ear Peter had cut off, challenged him, “Didn’t I see you with him in the olive grove?” Again Peter denied it, and at that moment a rooster began to crow.” (John 18:25–27)
I'm going to simply copy from the Life of Christ study guide, but want you to know too that other commentaries agree with this, though many simply stick to the idea of 3 denials too.
Matthew and Mark record this exchange which occurred after the departure from the upper room, whereas Luke and John record a similar, but different, event earlier in the evening. Here, the warning was made to the eleven, whereas the earlier warning was addressed to Peter. Peter, apparently still smarting from the rebuke inherent in the earlier prophecy, vehemently contradicted his Lord (Mark 14:31 “But Peter insisted emphatically, “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.” And all the others said the same.”), a lead which the other ten disciples then followed.
Consider for a moment the emotions of the eleven as they left that upper room. They must have felt very close to their Lord after the Upper Room Discourse (what disciple could fail to respond to that passionate plea?), and surely they had all resolved to honor His plea for unity. However, the cold truth of imminent desertion fractured their ranks in short shrift and made Peter self-assertive again. How frail is our human psyche! Peter’s response (Matt 26:33 “Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.””) could not have endeared him to the ten, and must have saddened his Lord for its lack of love, a subject on which He had just lectured the apostles. Before we criticize Peter, however, we should examine our own lives and attitudes, for surely his attitude is recorded for our instruction, not to satisfy our penchant for criticism. The Church’s cohesion is entirely dependent on Christ’s presence.
Our Lord’s prophecy of defection by the whole band was made with purpose. Its point is indicated in Matt v. 32: “But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.” it was to reassure the apostles that their defection would be forgiven so as to encourage them to go to Galilee to await the risen Jesus Christ. When we study the resurrection narrative we will see that Christ had to do still more to bolster their faith (and possibly to dispel their remorse) before they would set out for Galilee.
Now let us turn our attention to the prophecy directed at Peter. First, it is significant that the Greek text uses different words for deny and betray, so Peter’s sin was of a different specie to that of Judas. Denying Christ is not the same as betraying Him (thank God!), and Christ does restore those who deny Him to fellowship with Him. Second, we should note the distinction between Luke 22:34, ‘before the cock crow at all,’ and Mark 14:30, ‘before the second cock crow.’ Mark is not contradictory, but a second warning, and as will be argued in Study 69, doubles the number of times Peter was to renounce his Lord. Matthew 26:34 may be either a repetition of the first (§245) warning at an early stage in Peter’s repeated assertions, or an abbreviated record of Mark 14:30 (the latter is more likely, because Matthew reports the second set of denials).
The Trial in Annas’ House (Luke 22:54–55; John 18:13–23)
After His arrest in Gethsemane, our Lord was first taken to Annas’ house which served as a convenient ‘holding’ station, for while Jesus was there Caiaphas was able to assemble the elders of the nation in his house. These events took place in the middle of the night (as Jesus was arrested around 10:30 p.m.), before the watch named ‘cockcrowing’ by the Romans. Romans divided the night into four watches of three hours each:
late 6 p.m. to 9 p.m.,
midnight 9 p.m. to 12 a.m.,
cockcrowing 12 a.m. to 3 a.m.,
and early 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. (see also Mark 13:35).
Annas had been high priest from AD 6–15, but had been deposed by the Romans. However, under the Mosaic Law a high priest held office until his death, so many Jews would still have regarded Annas as the rightful high priest. The Romans had appointed Caiaphas who was thus the ‘legal’ high priest. Notably, both tried Jesus, so the Jewish priesthood cannot escape culpability for rejecting their Messiah on a technicality! Nor can the Jewish nation by arguing the demerits of Caiaphas’ appointment.
John’s modesty in not naming himself after the other Gospels had omitted mention of his following Jesus (John was the last Gospel to be written) is exemplary. One wonders just what happened between the disciples fleeing and this event. John and Peter clearly came together in the dark and together decided to stay close to Jesus, presumably in an attempt to free Him from captivity. The crowd who arrested Jesus carried lamps and torches (John 18:3), so their route and destination could easily be followed. John used the fact that he knew the high priest to gain admission; this, together with the gatekeeper’s question, indicates that Jesus’ captors had taken precautions against His disciples infiltrating their stronghold in a natural caution to thwart any attempt to free Him.
Annas had chosen a girl as gatekeeper, presumably because women are generally more observant of people than are men (this point was demonstrated in Mark 14:66, and Mark 14:69). The question she posed to Peter (John 18:17 ““You are not one of his disciples, are you?” the girl at the door asked Peter. He replied, “I am not.””) was probably asked of everyone not known to her that evening, for the Greek text phrases this question as though she expected a negative answer. Peter did not disillusion her, and so gained entry to the courtyard in which Jesus stood. The cold noted in John 18:18 should give us pause to consider our Lord’s circumstances. After the severe emotional strain of Gethsemane, one could expect Him to be physically drained and in need of warmth, yet He was left wearing only His normal garments, while those around Him warmed themselves at the fire.
Annas was the power behind the high priesthood (indeed, he was Caiaphas’ father-in-law), and clearly must have been waiting up for Jesus’ arrest as this trial must have begun around midnight. It seems that Jesus was first taken to Annas’ palace in order to allow time for the men whom Caiaphas had summoned to assemble at his palace. Normal respect and caution would have ensured that Caiaphas only summoned these men after he was certain of Jesus’ arrest. It seems that when Annas found Jesus in his power he could not resist the opportunity to cross-examine Him, even though Jesus was probably simply being held in his palace as a matter of practical convenience until the men Caiaphas had summoned to him had assembled.
Annas was particularly concerned about the political implications of events, as is indicated by the questions he asked Jesus about His followers. The second aspect of his questions, on Jesus’ teachings, was probably an attempt to establish a charge of blasphemy. Annas was trying to get Jesus to testify against Himself; but as Roman law did not require a man to do so, Jesus did not oblige. Indeed, His answer emphasized the ridiculousness of the questions, for all His teaching had been made in public, which was precisely why Annas and Caiaphas were so anxious to get Him out of the way! (Caiaphas had originated the idea of crucifying Christ—John 18:14.)
The Greek text uses the perfect tense for ‘spoke’ in John 18:20; Jesus had finished His preaching as He had solemnly proclaimed in §224 (Matt 23:37–39), so one cannot but be impressed by His perfect consistency. God’s spirit will not always strive with man; there comes a time when God stops pleading with sinners. The ‘taught’ is an aorist, the tense Greek uses for a simple past action; so the change in tense is significant. Jesus was that sure of the clarity of His teaching that He could confidently refer His accusers to those whom He had taught. Surely, this sets an example of clarity in teaching which we who are privileged to teach should strive to emulate.
This ‘trial’ may be likened to an arraignment, but from the prosecution’s point of view, was devoid of any usefulness. It is little wonder that the frustration of one of the officers drove him to physical violence; his blow indicated their rejection of Jesus more explicitly than any words could convey. The Greek text makes it plain that the blow was vicious and violent; it was clearly an expression of intense hate, and marked the beginning of an intense outpouring of hate against Jesus. Sin always displays this hate towards righteousness; it is vicious, violent, passionate, irrational, and always futile, even as this demonstration was. Annas’ action of sending Jesus to Caiaphas (John 18:24) was an admission of defeat. He could not argue with the logic of Jesus’ reply in John 18:23, yet this did not cause him to reconsider his resolve.
Peter’s Denials at Annas’ House (Mark 14:66–68; Luke 22:56–58; John 18:25–27)
“While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by. When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him. “You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus,” she said. But he denied it. “I don’t know or understand what you’re talking about,” he said, and went out into the entryway.” (Mark 14:66–68)
“A servant girl saw him seated there in the firelight. She looked closely at him and said, “This man was with him.” But he denied it. “Woman, I don’t know him,” he said. A little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.” “Man, I am not!” Peter replied.” (Luke 22:56–58)
“As Simon Peter stood warming himself, he was asked, “You are not one of his disciples, are you?” He denied it, saying, “I am not.” One of the high priest’s servants, a relative of the man whose ear Peter had cut off, challenged him, “Didn’t I see you with him in the olive grove?” Again Peter denied it, and at that moment a rooster began to crow.” (John 18:25–27)
We now strike a passage of Scripture difficult to harmonize with the church’s traditional lore that Peter denied his Lord three times. Our concept of three denials stems from Jesus’ statement to Peter that he would deny Him three times. However, we invariably overlook the fact that our Lord said this twice; first, at the beginning of the Last Supper, and then at its conclusion (compare Luke 22:34 and John 13:38 with Matt 26:34 and Mark 14:30). “Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”” (Luke 22:34) “Then Jesus answered, “Will you really lay down your life for me? I tell you the truth, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!” (John 13:38) ““I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”” (Matthew 26:34) ““I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice you yourself will disown me three times.”” (Mark 14:30)
So these two statements were separated by two or more hours; moreover, one was indoors, the other outdoors as they made their way to Gethsemane. Clearly, they were separated in time and place; thus there is no scriptural basis to claim that these prophecies are one. Furthermore, as we noted when studying these sections, the details of the two prophecies differ, the first specifying ‘before the cock crow,’ the second, ‘before the cock crow twice.’ So there is a distinct, though subtle, difference between these two prophecies; as we shall see, Peter was actually being told that because of his vehement contradiction of the first prophecy, he would deny Christ a second set of three times!
Each of the four Gospels records three denials by Peter, but on examination it is evident that more than three denials are described. When we list the people to whom Peter made his denials, we find at least three were to individual women and two to individual men, as well as some to collective accusers. When we consider the settings for the denials we find there were more than three; one accusation is recorded as being at the door to Annas’ house, another in the entrance to Caiaphas’ house, and two more in Annas’ and in Caiaphas’ courtyards. The bases of the accusations also number more than three; so in terms of people, location, and essence, we find more than three distinct denials.
We need to return to the Upper Room Discourse to begin unraveling this problem, for there we found that Luke and John recorded Jesus’ prediction of Peter’s denial early in the supper (Luke 22:31–34; John 13:36–38), while Matthew and Mark record a similar prediction en route to Gethsemane, after the supper was over (Matt 26:30–35; Mark 14:26–31). Significantly, Mark 14:30 reads ‘before the cock crows twice, you will deny me thrice,’ whereas Luke 22:34 reads ‘before the cock crows at all.’ So there were two distinct prophecies; first, to Peter individually that he would deny Christ three times before the cock crowed at all, and then that he would deny Him three times before the cock crowed twice, this last when Jesus warned all the disciples that they would abandon Him that night and Peter averred that he never would despite the actions of the rest. Mark 14:68 and Mark 14:72 indicate two distinct occasions on which there was a cockcrow that night. So we can look for a total of six denials, three before the first cockcrow which fulfilled the first prophecy, and three between the first and second cockcrows, which fulfilled the second prophecy.
Our Consolidated Gospel separates the scriptural record of these two sets of three denials each by Peter and accommodates Mark’s two distinct cockcrows. The full gospel record of the denials is tabulated below; when studying it, please note that it uses each Gospel sequentially. You will gain much by reading all accounts of the same denial concurrently, thus observing how detail is added to our understanding of each denial by the four individual Gospels.
Denials in Annas’ house.
Person........................Place..........
First denial........girl......door....John 18:17,
Second denial...girl.......fire......Mark 14:66–68, Luke 22:55–57, John 18:18, John 18:25
Third denial......man.....porch...Luke 22:58, John 18:26–27,
The first cock crow..................Mark 14:68, John 18:27,
Denials in Caiaphas’ house.
Person.............................Place..........
First denial........girl...........court..........Matthew 26:69–70,
Second denial....girl...........entry..........Matthew 26:71–72, Mark 14:69–70,
Third denial.......man.........court?.........Matthew 26:73–74, Mark 14:70–71, Luke 22:59–60,
The second cock crow.........................Matthew 26:74–75, Mark 14:72, Luke 22:60–62,
As you study this table, note how it preserves the gender of each accuser, and that there is no tension in the settings (unless it be that John reports Peter standing, and Luke him sitting, for the second denial in Annas’ house—but this is easily reconciled, for a cold person’s natural reaction is to stand in front of a fire and then, after warming up, to sit in its comfort). Notice, too, that ‘another girl’ of Matt 26:71 is explained, for the scene changed from Annas’ to Caiaphas’ house for Mark’s servant girl to identify Peter for the second time. Moreover, Matthew and Mark record the same description ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ as coming from the lips of the same girl, though on different occasions. Luke, in its record of the final denial, focuses on the beginning of the accusation, for the remark in Luke 22:59 “About an hour later another asserted, “Certainly this fellow was with him, for he is a Galilean.”” is clearly not addressed to Peter but to fellow bystanders. This triggered the crowd’s concerted accusation reported by Matthew and Mark.
Matthew records the denials in Caiaphas’ house which is where the official high priest rejected the King. Mark records the public denials (the first and third denials in Annas’ house were made to individuals; likewise, the first in Caiaphas’ house). Luke focuses on the individuals who positively identified Peter (the first challenge in Annas’ house expected a negative answer, so was not a clear denial), and, in contrast to Mark, records Peter’s specific attempts at deceiving individuals as distinct from groups. John records only the denials in Annas’ house. In summary, then, John records the first three denials and a cockcrow which must be the first. Matthew records the second three denials in Caiaphas’ palace and a cockcrow which must be the second. Mark records the public denials, and Luke the denials to individuals. John records three denials in Annas’ house, but both Mark and Luke compiled their records from both locales. Clearly, Peter had been all too thorough in denying his Lord, and both of Jesus’ prophecies were fulfilled. The foregoing table gives a more detailed explanation of the four records of the six denials.
Throughout these six denials there is constant movement, for Peter moved from one scene to the next, which is as one would expect in a real life situation. In Annas’ house we find him moving from the gate to the courtyard to the porch, ever seeking to elude his accusers. The same circumstance is found in Caiaphas’ house, for he moves from the courtyard to the gate (where he bumps into the girl from Annas’ house!) and then into the main house (or close to it, for he was close enough to Jesus during that last denial for his Lord to look at him). No matter where Peter went in that crowd he bumped into someone who recognized him! Most frequently it was a woman, which probably explains why Annas used a girl as his gatekeeper—she was more observant than a man!
Before we consider the first three denials, let us consider Peter. He probably saw himself in the role of a spy, for that is what he was trying to be. After all, why was he there? Would the man who had earlier defended Christ with his sword, now merely want to know what was happening, or would he want to free him? All we know of Peter indicates the latter! Now, conventional wisdom is that spies have to lie, so Peter probably reasoned it was necessary for him to do so. Peter fell into the situational ethics pitfall, but it is clear that Christ did not condone his actions. However, before we are too harsh on Peter, let us use his performance as a mirror against which to compare our own lives. With your life on the line, would you not have kept far away? At least Peter was trying to do something, so we must be slow to criticize him; he represents the best that is found in any disciple of any age. After all, he was chosen by Christ Himself, and criticism of Peter is therefore criticism of Jesus’ choice.
Now let us turn our attention to the first set of three denials, denials which took place in Annas’ house before the first cockcrow. We can readily reconstruct the sequence of events as follows:
1. When Peter arrived he could not gain access to Annas’ house until John arranged this for him. On passing the maiden gatekeeper, she asked him whether he was a disciple of Jesus; he denied this. This is the first denial (John 18:15–17).
2. The terrain of Jerusalem is generally steep, so the terraced forecourt and courtyard that Mark 14:66 indicates was a common architectural feature in Jerusalem. We can next imagine Peter standing on the higher level, surveying the scene below him.
3. Peter then joined the servants and officers at their fire in the courtyard (Luke 22:55; John 18:18), first of all standing and finally sitting down. There, one of the high priest’s slave girls recognized him and told those around her (Luke 22:56), finally asking Peter outright whether he was with Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 14:67). Peter sensibly tried to ignore the question, but the crowd repeated it to him (John 18:75). He then denied any knowledge of what they were talking about, of Jesus, and of his discipleship.
4. Peter then left that place (the fire has become too hot for him!), going out on the porch (Mark 14:68), where, after a short while, another person, a man this time, a relative of Malchus, asked him whether he had not seen him in the garden; with recognition becoming certain, he charged, “You are also of them.” Peter emphatically again denied that he was a disciple (Luke 22:58; John 18:26–27); this was followed immediately by the first cockcrow.
Peter’s questioners were unsure of their charge on the first two occasions he was accosted, as the words they used indicate; but the final question was a clear assertion, without any doubt, that Peter had been in the garden. Now, as Peter had been found actively defending Jesus with a sword (caught with a smoking gun in his hand!), there could be no doubt he was a disciple. One wonders how Peter could have been so imperceptive, but he may well have regarded his earlier defection in the Garden of Gethsemane as fulfilling Jesus’ prophecy that ‘before’ the cockcrow (watch of the cockcrowing) he would abandon Him. Peter was about to receive a lesson in the literal fulfillment of prophecy!
These three denials were happening at the same time that Jesus was being tried for the first time. When the crowd moved to Caiaphas’ palace (John 18:24), Peter moved with them.
The Trial in Caiaphas’ Palace (Matt 26:57–68; Mark 14:53–65; Luke 22:63–65; John 18:24)
The pertinent architectural features of Caiaphas’ house for this episode are the entrance vestibule, the room or portico in which our Lord’s trial took place, and an open courtyard between that vestibule and the courtyard. Simultaneous with the trial Caiaphas was conducting, Peter was moving about his house, seeking a quiet corner to take in the situation, no doubt still hoping to find some way to free Jesus. He saw himself as a spy, but the enemy’s ‘intelligence’ kept finding him and identifying him, blowing his cover, as it were!
In this awkward position we find the sorry spectacle of Peter denying his Lord three more times. But that is not the only sub-drama being enacted that night; somewhere, the traitor was seated, taking in the scene, and the enormity of his action finally broke over him. Then, too, the night’s activities had to be ‘legalized.’ The reports we now cover trace these three episodes. This time there is no mention of a fire and we find the following sequence of denials:
1. Peter was outside in the courtyard when a slave girl (presumably of Caiaphas this time) saw him and quite positively identified him as being with ‘Jesus of Galilee.’ Peter brushed her accusation aside by saying he did not know what she was talking about (Matt 26:69–70).
2. Peter then moved (naturally!) from that trouble spot to the entrance, where another girl, the same one who had earlier recognized him in Annas’ house, saw him again, and began telling all around her, ‘he is one of them’; ‘this fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.’ This time he denied Jesus (Matt 26:71, 72; Mark 14:69, 70a). The phrase ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ (Matt 26:71) agrees with that used in Mark 14:67, so links this girl with Mark’s passage, a fact confirmed by Mark 14:69 saying the girl saw him ‘again.’ FOOTNOTE: This discussion on the significance of ‘Jesus of Galilee’ versus ‘Jesus the Nazarene’ may seem pedantic, but is necessary if one holds to verbal inspiration, for otherwise Mark 14:67 contradicts Matt 26:69 (both cannot be a verbally accurate report of the girl’s speech, unless she said ‘the Galilean, the Nazarene,’ which seems highly unlikely). The scheme suggested removes this tension. Study the text closely; Matthew says ‘another’ girl, Mark speaks of the same girl whose precedent (v.66) precipitated Peter’s second denial in Annas’ palace which John describes.
3. The final denial came a little while later (Matthew and Mark) and about an hour after the final denial in Annas’ house (Luke 22:59). This time, a man confidently denounced Peter to his companions on account of his accent (Luke 22:59) and the group then took up the denunciation (Matt 26:73; Mark 14:70) until Peter began to place himself under a curse and to vow that he did not know Jesus in order to make his denial sound more convincing. It was then that Jesus looked straight at Peter.
Consider the lighting: Peter could see Jesus easily as He would have been in a well-lit room; but, in human terms, Jesus would be hard put to see Peter outside in an inferior-lit outer space (it is always difficult, often impossible, to look from a well-lit space into a dark space). Yet Jesus looked straight at Peter, a further evidence of His divine omniscience. The Greek text of Luke 22:60 “Peter replied, “Man, I don’t know what you’re talking about!” Just as he was speaking, the rooster crowed.” draws attention to the simultaneous nature of Jesus turning, specifically looking straight at Peter, and the cock crowing while Peter was mid-sentence in his vehement denial of any knowledge whatever of Jesus. “Peter replied, “Man, I don’t know what you’re talking about!” Just as he was speaking, the rooster crowed. The Lord turned and looked straight at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word the Lord had spoken to him: “Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times.”” (Luke 22:60–61)
Only three of twelve (including the lone young man of Mark 14:51–52) had attempted to follow Jesus. Two, Peter and John, made it to Annas’ house; it seems only one made it to Caiaphas’ palace (apparently Peter went there alone, for John is not mentioned in this setting), and there Peter again denied his Lord three times. The significance of this Scripture is that it reveals that absolutely all men abandoned Jesus to the cross. Peter, the leader of the faithful, loudly denied Him; John, the beloved disciple, silently did the same. These two, chosen in love, and chosen to lead, epitomize the believers. Christ died for all men, yet none, not even those closest to Him, were adequate to offer Him any support in His death. His death was utterly lonely. This surely was the cruelest rejection of all—by men who claimed to believe on Him.
And when we deny Christ or are silent about Him, are we not the same?
Mills, M. S. (1999). The Life of Christ: A Study Guide to the Gospel Record
Lastly, let me show you a short except from another commentary that will also give you an idea of the many others who have realized that there were 6 denials:
““I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice you yourself will disown me three times.”” (Mark 14:30)
“That Mark should say, ‘Before the cock crow twice thou shalt deny me thrice,’ while the other Evangelists say, ‘Before the cock crow thou shalt deny me thrice,’ makes no real discrepancy. The latter speak generally of the cock-crowing as a period of time within which the three denials should take place; Mark more accurately says, that during this period the cock should not crow twice ere the denials were made” (The Life of Our Lord, p. 496). Webster and Wilkinson note that the expression “second crowing” “shows the accuracy of S. Mark, on the supposition that he wrote for the use of Christians at Rome. The Western world generally reckoned two cockcrowings, one at about 3 a.m. (“cockcrowing,” Mk 13:35), the other at the dawn of day. This last was the only one reckoned in the East (Greek Testament, vol. 1, p. 221). Stuart Custer notes the fact that Matthew and Luke do not mention the cock’s crowing twice is simply a case of their providing general information, whereas Mark, as the disciple of Peter, having been told the particulars more precisely, gives the more detailed account, incidentally proving the independent testimony of the four evangelists (Does Inspiration Demand Inerrancy?, p. 107). John W. Haley remarks, “The four evangelists agree as to the number of the denials; but Matthew, Luke, and John represent them as occurring before the crowing of the cock; Mark as occurring before the cock should crow ‘twice.”’ Haley further states, “Alford, Whitby, and many commentators note that cocks are accustomed to crow twice,—at or near midnight, and not far from day-break. Inasmuch as few persons hear the first crowing, the term generally denotes the second. All the evangelists refer to this latter; but Mark with greater precision designates it as the ‘second crowing.’ It seems probable that no one of the evangelists has mentioned all the denials by Peter during that sorrowful night. As the accusation was caught up, reiterated, and flung in his face by one and another of the servants and the guard, the terror-stricken man, in his agitation and in his anxiety to clear himself, would be likely to repeat the denial a considerable number of times, and in every variety of phrase. And, meanwhile, he would naturally be shifting about from place to place. This hypothesis accounts for the difficulty as to the persons who accosted him, and the places where he was when the denials were uttered” (An Examination of the Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible, pp. 424, 425). A careful reading of the four accounts lends support to the possibility that Jesus in Mk 14:30 predicted two series of three denials, three denials before each of two cockcrowings: (1) The first series of three. First denial: Jn 18:17, place, the door (thura) without; time, entering; the questioner, the porteress (thuroros). Second denial: Mt 26:70; Mk 14:68, place, the hall (aule); time, sitting; questioner, a certain maid. Lk 22:56-58 combines the same place and time, with the same maid, and another (heteros, masculine). Third denial: Mt 26:71, place, the gateway or porch (pulon). Time, an interval of an hour. Jn 18:25, 26 combines the same place and time, with another maid and bystanders, one of them being a relative of Malchus. A cock crew: Mk 14:68. Jn 18:27. (2) The second series of three. First denial: Mk 14:63, place, beneath the hall; time, shortly after; questioner, the maid again. Second denial: Mt 26:73; Mk 14:70, place, the gate (pulon); time, shortly after; questioners, the bystanders. Third denial: Lk 22:59, 60, place, the midst of the hall (aule, ver. 55); time, an hour after (ver. 59); questioner, a certain one (masculine). A cock crew: (Mt 26:74. Mk 14:72. Lk 22:61). We thus have a combined record in which there remains no difficulty, while each word retains its own true grammatical sense (Companion Bible, Appendix 160, pp. 183, 184. Compare Johnston M. Cheney, The Life of Christ in Stereo, Appendix III, pp. 222-224).
Smith, J. H. (1992). The new treasury of scripture knowledge: The most complete listing of cross references available anywhere- every verse, every theme, every important word
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 10, 2016 17:36:00 GMT -5
Wow!!!
Thank you so much Cindy.
It shows me how my not reading carefully....because I often skim over, and not notice ( unlike the female gatekeepers) the smaller but mega important details.
But, it in another way, is a small example of why we ( I) will never come to the end of scripture.
Just one example is I always was and still am....amazed at just how many new ( to me) and exciting things ( over decades),
I continually learn about ch. 3 of Genesis!!! ( I just listen last night to John MacArthur Bible Study on youtube on that very chapter!!! And I learned even more new revelations!!
so again, thank you so much!!!!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 10, 2016 19:53:55 GMT -5
11/10/16
Romans 1: 18-32
I decided to re-read this passage today.
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
verse 18 let's us know for sure, that God is angry with liars
v. 18 "godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness..."
God does not smile indulgently on liars.
The next couple of verses makes it clear that the Creation itself makes it clear there is a Creator and we can also discern a lot about God from His Creation....
( of course, not as much as from His Word) so that people are without excuse.
My application is to glorified God and give thanks to Him, so that my thinking does not become futile and my foolish heart darkened.
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Post by Cindy on Nov 11, 2016 11:52:01 GMT -5
Wow!!!
Thank you so much Cindy.
It shows me how my not reading carefully....because I often skim over, and not notice ( unlike the female gatekeepers) the smaller but mega important details.
But, it in another way, is a small example of why we ( I) will never come to the end of scripture.
Just one example is I always was and still am....amazed at just how many new ( to me) and exciting things ( over decades),
I continually learn about ch. 3 of Genesis!!! ( I just listen last night to John MacArthur Bible Study on youtube on that very chapter!!! And I learned even more new revelations!!
so again, thank you so much!!!! 11/10/16
Romans 1: 18-32
I decided to re-read this passage today.
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
verse 18 let's us know for sure, that God is angry with liars
v. 18 "godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness..."
God does not smile indulgently on liars.
The next couple of verses makes it clear that the Creation itself makes it clear there is a Creator and we can also discern a lot about God from His Creation....
( of course, not as much as from His Word) so that people are without excuse.
My application is to glorified God and give thanks to Him, so that my thinking does not become futile and my foolish heart darkened.
Look at what you wrote for a total of 14 verses....is that all you got out of it? Look especially at your application, reading that should give you some more thoughts about what you just studied. In other words, why did your thinking become futile in the past? (one way our thinking becomes futile is when we become depressed, etc.) When your thinking became futile, what fruit did you reap from it? How can you prevent that from happening again? Who makes our thinking futile? Who's fault is it? (clue: look in Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, and Romans 1:28 and you'll see that same phrase repeated over and over again, remembering that when God repeats something in His Word, it's very important) So what phrase is repeated?
Why do you say that Romans 1:18 shows that God is angry with liars? “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,” (Romans 1:18) Lying is only one way that people are wicked and suppress the Truth of God. There are many other ways, and this verse covers them all when it says "all". For example, people who live as homosexuals suppress God's Truth that He made women to be men's helpmates, and so they could have children. People who live together without being married suppress God's Truth that man is to have only one wife. People who abuse their children suppress God's Truth that He is love, etc.
We often hear the question asked, "If Christ is the only way to the Father, then what about children in some tribe deep in the jungle who have never heard of Jesus or God, will He send them to Hell for not knowing Jesus?" Romans 1:20 answers that question (at least partially). For we know that God judges people based on what they know or could know if they tried, so if there is no way they could know Jesus, then what? How will they be judged, based on Romans 1:20?
Romans 1:22–23 show us how much we can deceive ourselves, how corrupt our hearts really are. Those who fail to acknowledge God and His right to their life, think they're so wise when in fact, they're fools! What does that tell us about all the people we tend to "look up to" in this life? What does it tell us about how our own minds need to be reprogrammed? Finally, Romans 1:23 shows us how Satan continues to fool mankind and make them think that they are "gods." (Gen. 3:5) Just look and see what's first on the list of false gods (idols). It's man! “and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” (Romans 1:23)
“They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,” (Romans 1:29) Depravity is also translated as "maliciousness" or "evil" or "wickedness" or "malice". One version translates it as "selfishness and hatred". This word refers to “the evil habit of mind”; malignity. lit. depravity. “bad character, depravity of heart and life.” It refers to that habit of mind which attributes the worst imaginable motives to the actions of others, “the evil which we trace in ourselves makes us ready to suspect & believe evil in others.” It's a wickedness that is not ashamed to break laws. It means evil purposes and desires. As you can see the words in Romans 1:29 are synonyms of each other for the most part and the next 2 verses continue to describe how these people act and think. But what I wanted to point out is that they aren't just outward manifestations of evil - it's not just what people DO, it's how they think, what their attitude is about themselves, others and God. More, this is what happens to people who do not know and honor God, it's how their minds and hearts become more and more corrupt.
On the other hand, what happens to people when they do know and honor God? He gives them a new nature - a nature that is not corrupt. One that can understand spiritual things (and everything has a spiritual component) A nature that is clean and pure, but that needs to be fed His Word in order to be strengthened and continue to grow strong in us.
So in all of this, what do you see that shows you that you are saved? Do you see what we're doing here?
What I want you to do is to really study what you read and reflect on it during the day, talking to the Lord about it. Then come here and write what you've learned, what your application is, and how it shows you that you are saved. OK? It's going to take a lot of thought on your part, but it will be good thought!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 11, 2016 12:54:47 GMT -5
Thank you so much for the added ways to apply scripture not just to behavior, thinking etc. but to consider it concerning salvation.
why did your thinking become futile in the past?
I am not saying this as an excuse, just how I chose to ( in part) allow my thinking to become...futile.
I think 6 years of foster homes, and one man intent on killing me, ( with no scripture those 6 years)...
I chose to view myself as not being worthy of love, or anything, but abuse and death.
(one way our thinking becomes futile is when we become depressed, etc.) When your thinking became futile, what fruit did you reap from it?
I reaped more abuse ( no love except by my adopted parents),
even as a young child I sinfully looked for ways to kill myself
and continued to try to commit suicide into my early 20's,
and had almost nothing but abusive depravity in sexual relationships
also mixed up with the satanic hippy movement I chose....drugs and 'free love'
'free love was just another way in reality of being a prostitute without being paid.
How can you prevent that from happening again?
Taking my thoughts captive....and I do try and have had a lot of success but every time I fail, I think it means I have not repented and therefore am not saved....
because
I can see failing 10 times, or even .....50....
but at some point, I start to worry....
if I can't end the cycle, then, I am not saved.
I do prob take my thoughts ( all manner of them)
1000 (?) times ....to 100 (?) failures.....
not an exact counting,
I do fail less and less....
but I should have victory all the time
since I still don't (in the here and now)
it occurs to me if I were saved, I would have totally victory.... and then I do get so depressed
Who makes our thinking futile?
we do....in this case....I do.
Oh I did gain a lot more from those verses.....I just wrote a little because, I wasn't quite sure exactly how to proceed ( and I wasn't sure we were even done with Peter's 6 denials of Christ.....for some reason, I was thinking it would take you 2 days of posting).
So I had already previously posted on these verses, and then a second time, and I was thinking maybe even a 3rd time, but just was not sure....so I kept it short.
Also, you have been so kind to take sooooo much time with me,
and I know you have a 'life' LOL
but even more, you are often in a LOT of pain....so I don't want to cause you more pain, but having to reply to LOOOOOOONG posts.
Read more: fresh-hope.com/thread/1767/daily-time-lord?page=27#ixzz4Pit9TyRt |
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Post by Cindy on Nov 11, 2016 12:58:23 GMT -5
having just read what sinners are like in Romans 1:18-32, I'd like to share something with you that I finally figured out about myself. I've often wondered just when I was saved, as I think you're aware of. I finally decided that I'd just go with when I was in my late 30's since that's when my life changed. Now however, after much study and prayer, and speaking with a godly pastor (the one who wrote The Life of Christ study that we did on the Gospels for so long) I realize that I was actually saved as a young child! I have no idea how I knew about God then, as my parents were atheists and never spoke about Him, but I did. I not only knew about God, I knew Jesus and I loved Him with all my heart. I used to think of Him as my "secret friend". But I didn't really start to learn about Him till I was about 11 and a neighbor began taking me to church with their kids who were my friends. I loved it, and fell even deeper in love with the Lord. I was 12 before my mom would even consider getting me a bible, and then she only got me a children's bible. I devoured that very quickly and begged for a "real" one, and she finally gave in. I devoured that one too, from Genesis to Revelation and knew it very well. I studied it all the time, just like I do now. The only problem was that I didn't have anyone to talk to about it or explain anything to me except for God and I didn't know that He would back then. I understood a great deal of what the bible said, but I got one major thing wrong. I thought that when we were saved, all our sins were forgiven up to that point, and that we were responsible for them after that. That isn't totally off base, because we are responsible to confess them and turn from then once we're saved, but I didn't know that we could still be forgiven them. So after trying through my teenage years to "be good" and obey God" and failing miserably, I thought I was going to go to Hell. I was devastated and could hardly stand the thought of not being with my Jesus. At the same time though, I knew that was what I deserved, and I wasn't angry about it, just sad. I was also confused about my mother who didn't believe in God, much less in obeying Him. She never stopped me from going to church, but in order to keep me from being polluted by church, (in her mind) she tried to get me interested in other things like Ouija boards, tarot cards and eastern or Gnostic religions and the occult. She told me stories about her mother who had been very involved with the occult, and did all she could to turn me, without me knowing that was what she was doing. The problem for me was that I knew beyond doubt that my mother loved me and would never, ever purposely do anything to harm me. I knew she wanted what was best for me. But her ways were the opposite of God's ways, so besides believing I'd go to hell at that time, I also became confused because I couldn't understand how my mother and so many others could be so wrong about everything. Weren't they supposed to be teaching me and guiding me? After all, they were my elders and had a lot more experience than I did. Finally, as a young adult, I just gave up. I knew I couldn't possibly be good enough for God or live according to His laws, so what was the point in constantly beating myself up about it? Little by little, I stopped reading my bible, although I did continue to go to church every Sunday, partly because I loved it and partly because I wanted my kids to go to heaven. I stopped praying every day too and soon the only prayers I said were when I was in big trouble and needed help. I got further into the occult and the new age stuff and so I lived most of my adult life as it continued to spiral down hill.
Finally, by the time I was in my late 30's, my life was a total wreck. I desperately needed help and I wanted answers. I knew enough to know that the only real truth could be found in the Bible, so that was where I turned, to the Bible and prayer. I pleaded with the Lord to help me, to show me what to do, and to show me why I couldn't be good enough for Him. I kept thinking about Peter and the other disciples and how they changed so much and lived victoriously after Jesus was resurrected. I felt like there had to be something I was missing because if they could change like that, then I should be able to as well-and yet I couldn't. What was the reason? What changed them? I immersed myself in my bible, and I started reading other Christian books as well including "Satan is alive and well on planet earth" by Hal Lindsey. While reading that book, Hal explained the gospel in it, and the light went on, and I understood!!!! He explained that ALL my sins were paid for on the cross, past, present and future!!!! My soul rejoiced and I cried and prayed and cried some more as I realized that I was saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That He loved me too! That I didn't have to be "good enough" for Him!!!! That He took me as I was!!!! Oh the glory of that moment!!! Time stood still and when it started again my whole world and my whole life was changed. Instantly.
Ever since that moment, my life has been filled with joy. Oh yes, there have been many times that I had problems and that I had to deal with grief and heartache, as well as all the normal day to day problems everyone has, as well as chronic pain. It wasn't an easy road to get my life turned around and put onto the right track, and I don't mean to imply that it was. Beneath it all however was a joy that has never left me. Joy that one day I will see my Savior face to face and that I will get to spend Eternity with Him! That joy is my strength even now and I know it always will be no matter what comes. People may fail me, loved ones may hurt me, problems will come, but Jesus will never leave me and that joy is there, deep in my soul.
For many years now I've assumed that that moment was when I was really saved, but I don't believe that anymore. I understand now that I was actually saved when I was a child, but Satan did to me what he does to so many of us. He made me doubt my salvation by causing me to think that being saved was contingent on something I had to do. In other words, I thought it was my works, my being good that saved me, not God's love and mercy. That's one of the hallmarks of Satan. He knows all about pride and how we tend to think that everything revolves around us somehow. He knows we all want to think we're very important. He knows that we've all been hurt by loved ones and therefore we don't trust others completely, and it's easy for him to get us to transfer that lack of trust, that doubt, that worry and fear, to God as well.
As a child, I was unable to understand that after we are saved by God, our works come naturally because of our salvation. The works themselves don't save us, they don't make God love us more, or desire us more. When we fail in something and sin, like I did so often (like we all do) it doesn't cause God to stop loving us, or wanting us, and it doesn't cause Him to throw us out of Heaven, or make our salvation null and void. If it did, NO ONE would be saved!!!!! But that didn't occur to me then. As I got older, after I'd given up on my own salvation, I began to realize that no one lived the way God said to, so to me they were all a bunch of hypocrites. In all my life, going to church every Sunday, I only met a few people who actually lived their faith and were different then other people. God made sure that the memory of them stuck in my mind too. But at the time, I simply told myself that they were just faking it, and couldn't be real. Now I know though that they really were saved, and God brought them into my life to show me that He could give us the power to live the way He wants us to. Oh, we'll still sin, but we can confess our sins and be forgiven and start over every day.
When we doubt our salvation, that causes us to not live for Him, and to constantly slide back into our old ways. It will cause us to stop reading our bibles and stop praying too. Oh we might read it once in a while, and might pray when things are so bad that it would take a miracle to help us, but we give up our relationship with the Lord. The relationship is still there, because God is still with us, holding us, even as we squirm to get away and refuse to recognize Him like a petulant child. We're just like a child that refuses to talk to their parents or do anything other than sit and pout in our room.
When we doubt our salvation, Satan makes it so that we're totally useless to God and makes sure that we waste our time here, since we can't live for Him and doubt Him at the same time. So all those adult years of my life were wasted because I lived for myself and glorified myself during those years and not Him. At least until I finally turned to Him with ALL my heart and begged to know Him, not just for Him to fix my life. When I say those years were wasted, I mean they were wasted as far as me using them to glorify God. However, God did not waste those years of my life. Instead, He used them to bring good out of them and bring glory to His Name. He did that by never leaving me and knowing the exact time I'd be ready to hear Him again, and learn the full Truth that would set me free. He used those years to form me into the person I am today. Today I know that I'm saved, clean, and will spend eternity with my Lord and that no one, not even me, can ever take me out of His Hands!
Satan made me fall once, but he didn't win the next battle. Because within about 3 years after I realized I was saved, and my relationship with the Lord had grown and prospered, I was in an accident that caused me to be completely disabled. Satan wanted me out of the picture. He most definitely did not want me to live for the Lord! This time though, I turned to my God and He helped me continue to live for Him even through the physical pain and the emotional turmoil the disability caused me. By then I knew what I had to do, and nothing would make me put down my bible, or stop praying, or stop worshiping Him. In fact, being disabled just gave me even more time for all those things which were more important to me than anything else anyway. By looking back on my life though, I can see how Satan worked and I know he does that to everyone. If he can't stop someone from being saved, then he tries his best to see that they don't live for the Lord and that their witness is worthless to Him because instead of being victors, they're victims. Every moment Satan can get us to doubt our salvation is a moment that's lost for living for God. Satan knows that the best way that a person can know they are saved for sure is by studying God's Word and praying to him. As John tells us: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13)
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 11, 2016 13:33:30 GMT -5
11/11/16
Romans 1:
I thought I would go over the last few verses of chapter I, a third time, trying to view it more from the point of salvation.
Verse 24 reflects my youthful past, but I do not glory in it and hate it, and tho I struggle with those deprave degrading thoughts once in awhile, it so saddens me, and I hate those thought....but because that I hate them, and usually am successful in taking them captive, is pointing towards salvation.
v 29 lists many sins and tho I still have some of these I pray against and hate them all. ( I still sometimes have struggles with gossip, boasting, greed etc.)....but again, the desire to be free and hating these sins, because I want to please Jesus and not make Him sad, is pointing towards salvation.
Plus, I hate to see them in others because unless they trust in Jesus, their love of their sins, will send them to Hell.
I am not sure if this is sort of what you meant?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 12, 2016 15:03:41 GMT -5
Since you won't be here before Monday, I will, in the mean time, just keep on as I am, and then you can tell me, if the way I am doing it not quite right or what!
I just realized that one proof of my salvation, has nothing to do with me, but everything to do with God, and His work on the Cross, His promises, His faithfulness ( tho I am not faithful) etc.
11/12/16
Romans 2: 1-16
God’s Righteous Judgment
This could be another passage that takes another day.
Before I look at it in view of my salvation, I know the first verse causes confusion and many who don't want to hear or look at their sins, use this verse incorrectly
v.1 "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. "
I think the confusion may be that people read it as don't judge because if you do you are a hypocrite.
Then too some Christians may indeed 'judge' other people for sins that they are still doing themselves.
Correct me if I am wrong, I think God is telling Christians not to judge 'people'......
However, He is not saying, that we cannot judge 'sin'
( our own, and if they are open to it, other people's sins, or sin by itself).....
but if we are wallowing in a sin and try to point it out to a non-believer it would be condemning to us.
I see v. 4 as as salvation proof:
"God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance"
I am concerned about repentance but I think I tend to forget "God's kindness".....but when I forget it....it doesn't make it go away, I still have it.
On the one hand, I know, I desire to do or be this verse as much as I can.....which mentions salvation
v. 7 "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. "
v.11 Speaks to my thinking John was Jesus favorite over Peter ( it was not true and still isn't)
v.11 "11 For God does not show favoritism."
I am wondering if v.15 which speaks of God's law being written on their hearts, might apply to me, as a proof of salvation ( I wonder, because I may be reading it wrong).
But a 'worry' to me is:
v.16 where it says in part: ".....God judges people’s secrets ...."
Which brings me back to taking thoughts captive.....
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Post by Cindy on Nov 13, 2016 11:49:55 GMT -5
Barbara, you never replied to me or sent me a PM about the Kindle book... so I still need to hear from you about that before I can send one to his kindle....You also must have posted while I was posting something else for you after my reply on Friday, and I guess you didn't see it...
11/11/16
Romans 1:
I thought I would go over the last few verses of chapter I, a third time, trying to view it more from the point of salvation.
Verse 24 reflects my youthful past, but I do not glory in it and hate it, and tho I struggle with those deprave degrading thoughts once in awhile, it so saddens me, and I hate those thought....but because that I hate them, and usually am successful in taking them captive, is pointing towards salvation.
v 29 lists many sins and tho I still have some of these I pray against and hate them all. ( I still sometimes have struggles with gossip, boasting, greed etc.)....but again, the desire to be free and hating these sins, because I want to please Jesus and not make Him sad, is pointing towards salvation.
Plus, I hate to see them in others because unless they trust in Jesus, their love of their sins, will send them to Hell.
I am not sure if this is sort of what you meant?
Yes, this is some of what I meant. Here's what I said before: What I want you to do is to really study what you read and reflect on it during the day, talking to the Lord about it. Then come here and write what you've learned, what your application is, and how it shows you that you are saved. OK? It's going to take a lot of thought on your part, but it will be good thought!
Since you won't be here before Monday, I will, in the mean time, just keep on as I am, and then you can tell me, if the way I am doing it not quite right or what!
I just realized that one proof of my salvation, has nothing to do with me, but everything to do with God, and His work on the Cross, His promises, His faithfulness ( tho I am not faithful) etc.
11/12/16
Romans 2: 1-16
God’s Righteous Judgment
This could be another passage that takes another day.
Before I look at it in view of my salvation, I know the first verse causes confusion and many who don't want to hear or look at their sins, use this verse incorrectly
v.1 "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. "
I think the confusion may be that people read it as don't judge because if you do you are a hypocrite.
Then too some Christians may indeed 'judge' other people for sins that they are still doing themselves.
Correct me if I am wrong, I think God is telling Christians not to judge 'people'......
However, He is not saying, that we cannot judge 'sin'
( our own, and if they are open to it, other people's sins, or sin by itself).....
but if we are wallowing in a sin and try to point it out to a non-believer it would be condemning to us.
I see v. 4 as as salvation proof:
"God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance"
I am concerned about repentance but I think I tend to forget "God's kindness".....but when I forget it....it doesn't make it go away, I still have it.
On the one hand, I know, I desire to do or be this verse as much as I can.....which mentions salvation
v. 7 "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. "
v.11 Speaks to my thinking John was Jesus favorite over Peter ( it was not true and still isn't)
v.11 "11 For God does not show favoritism."
I am wondering if v.15 which speaks of God's law being written on their hearts, might apply to me, as a proof of salvation ( I wonder, because I may be reading it wrong).
But a 'worry' to me is:
v.16 where it says in part: ".....God judges people’s secrets ...."
Which brings me back to taking thoughts captive.....
Romans 2:1-16: Having demonstrated the sinfulness of the immoral pagan (Romans 1:18–32), Paul presents his case against the religious moralist—Jew or Gentile—by cataloging 6 principles that govern God’s judgment: 1) knowledge (Romans 2:1); 2) truth (Romans 2:2-3); 3) guilt (Romans 2:4-5); 4) deeds (Romans 2:6–10); 5) impartiality (Romans 2:11–15); and 6) motive (Romans 2:16). Both Jews & moral Gentiles who think they are exempt from God’s judgment because they haven't indulged in the immoral excesses described in chap. 1, are tragically mistaken. They have more knowledge than the immoral pagan & thus a greater accountability (Heb 10:26–29; Jas 3:1). If someone has sufficient knowledge to judge others, he condemns himself, because he shows he has the knowledge to evaluate his own condition. In their condemnation of others they've excused & overlooked their own sins. Self-righteousness exists because of two deadly errors: 1) minimizing God’s moral standard usually by emphasizing externals; & 2) underestimating the depth of one’s own sinfulness. The MacArthur study Bible
Rom. 2:1–3:20 An imaginary Jew, listening to Paul’s condemnation of the Gentiles says, “Amen.” This is Paul’s “straw man” who often appears in this letter. Paul conducted a sort of running debate with him. Here, he replies, “You have no excuse because you are doing the very same things” How shocked the Jew must have been, yet it was true. He committed the same sins as the Gentiles, but in a more refined way. Instead of robbing men by force, he cheated them with guile. Instead of committing adultery with a harlot, he practiced serial marriage. The teacher's Bible commentary
Paul is addressing Jewish readers in this section. Disobedience to God was one sin Jews did not want to confess. The OT prophets were persecuted for indicting Israel for her sins, & Jesus was crucified for the same reason. Paul summoned 4 witnesses to prove the guilt of the Jewish nation. The Gentiles (vv. 1–3). Certainly the Jews would applaud Paul’s condemnation of the Gentiles in Romans 1:18–32. In fact, Jewish national & religious pride encouraged them to despise the “Gentile dogs” & have nothing to do with them. Paul used this judgmental attitude to prove the guilt of the Jews; for the very things they condemned in the Gentiles, they themselves were practicing! They thought that they were free from judgment because they were God’s chosen people. But Paul affirmed that God’s election of the Jews made their responsibility and accountability even greater. God’s judgment is according to truth. He does not have one standard for the Jews and another for the Gentiles. One who reads the list of sins in Rom 1:29–32 cannot escape the fact that each person is guilty of at least one of them. There are “sins of the flesh and of the spirit” (2 Cor. 7:1); there are “prodigal sons” & “elder brothers” (Luke 15:11–32). In condemning the Gentiles for their sins, the Jews were really condemning themselves. The Bible exposition commentary
Romans 2:2 Therefore, Paul declared, at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself. Everyone in the entire human race has turned away from God and commits sins even though there are differences of frequency, extent, and degree. In addition the entire human race, especially moral pagans and the Jews, stood condemned before God (and have no excuse [cf. 1:20]) because God’s judgment is based on three divine standards—truth (2:2–4), impartiality (vv. 5–11), and Jesus Christ Himself (vv. 12–16)—which are absolute and infinite, condemning every person. The Bible Knowledge Commentary
Romans 2:4 think lightly or show contempt: Lit. “to think down on,” thus to underestimate someone’s or something’s value, & even to treat with contempt. Kindness: This refers to “common grace,” the benefits God bestows on all men (cf. Mt 5:45; Ac 14:15–17). Tolerance: This word, which means “to hold back,” was sometimes used of a truce between warring parties. Rather than destroying every person the moment he or she sins, God graciously holds back His judgment (cf. 3:25). He saves sinners in a physical & temporal way from what they deserve (see note on 1Ti 4:10), to show them His saving character, that they might come to Him & receive salvation that is spiritual & eternal. Patience indicates the duration for which God demonstrates His kindness and tolerance—for long periods of time (cf. 2Pe 2:5). Together these 3 words speak of God’s common grace—the way He demonstrates His grace to all mankind (cf. Job 12:10; Pss 119:68; 145:9). The MacArthur study Bible
God’s blessing (vv. 4–11). Instead of giving the Jews special treatment from God, the blessings they received from Him gave them greater responsibility to obey Him & glorify Him. In His goodness, God had given Israel great material & spiritual riches: a wonderful land, a righteous Law, a temple & priesthood, God’s providential care, & many more blessings. God had patiently endured Israel’s many sins & rebellions, & had even sent them His Son to be their Messiah. Even after Israel crucified Christ, God gave the nation nearly 40 more years of grace & withheld His judgment. It is not the judgment of God that leads men to repentance, but the goodness of God; but Israel did not repent. The Bible exposition commentary
Romans 2:4 By not exacting His divine penalty on sinful humanity immediately, God is displaying the riches of His kindness (chrēstotētos, “benevolence in action,” also used of God in Romans 11:22; Eph. 2:7; Titus 3:4), tolerance, and patience (cf. Acts 14:16; Acts 17:30; Rom. 3:25). God’s purpose is to lead people toward repentance—a return to Him—through His kindness. (This word for “kindness” is chrēstos, a synonym of chrēstotētos, also trans. “kindness,” used earlier in the verse.) Both words mean “what is suitable or fitting to a need.” Chrēstos is used of God in Luke 6:35 and 1 Peter 2:3 and of people in Ephesians 4:32. Not realizing (lit., “being ignorant of”) God’s purpose, people showed contempt for (kataphroneis, “you thought down on”) God’s attributes and actions (cf. “suppress the truth,” Rom. 1:18). People knew of God’s Being through natural revelation (1:19–21, 28), but did not know the purpose of His kindness. The Bible Knowledge Commentary
“(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,” (Romans 2:14)
do instinctively the things of the Law. Without knowing the written law of God, people in pagan society generally value and attempt to practice its most basic tenets. This is normal for cultures instinctively (see note on v. 15) to value justice, honesty, compassion, and goodness toward others, reflecting the divine law written in the heart. law to themselves. Their practice of some good deeds and their aversion to some evil ones demonstrate an innate knowledge of God’s law—a knowledge that will actually witness against them on the day of judgment. The MacArthur study Bible
The Jew boasted in the Law. He was different from his pagan neighbors who worshiped idols! But Paul made it clear that it was not the possession of the Law that counted, but the practice of the Law. The Jews looked on the Gentiles as blind, in the dark, foolish, immature, & ignorant! But if God found the “deprived” Gentiles guilty, how much more guilty were the “privileged” Jews! God not only judges according to truth (Rom. 2:2), & according to men’s deeds (Rom. 2:6); but He also judges “the secrets of men” (Rom. 2:16). He sees what is in the heart! The Bible exposition commentary
“since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)” (Romans 2:15)
work of the Law. Probably best understood as “the same works the Mosaic law prescribes.” conscience. Lit. “with knowledge.” That instinctive sense of right & wrong that produces guilt when violated. In addition to an innate awareness of God’s law, men have a warning system that activates when they choose to ignore or disobey that law. Paul urges believers not to violate their own consciences or cause others to (13:5; 1Co 8:7, 12; 10:25, 29; 2Co 5:11; cf. 9:1; Ac 23:1; 24:16), because repeatedly ignoring the conscience’s warnings desensitizes it and eventually silences it (1Ti 4:2). See 2Co 1:12; 4:2. The MacArthur study Bible
Romans 2:14–15 One of two options is likely in understanding this difficult section, which people have sometimes interpreted as saying that a salvation exists outside of Jesus Christ. One option is that Gentile Christians are those who have the “law” written on their hearts, corresponding to Jeremiah’s depiction of the new covenant (Jr 31:33). Gentiles do what the law requires without having it. Though not ethnic Jews, they are the “true Jews” because of their circumcised hearts (Rm 2:28–29). They obey the law and are declared righteous (v. 13). A second option is that Paul was speaking of Gentiles in general who respond positively to their moral sense and the light they have in ways that correspond to God’s intentions, which correspond to the law Jews received. The Apologetics Study Bible
Conscience is an important part of human nature, but it is not an absolutely trustworthy indicator of what is right. One’s conscience can be “good” (Acts 23:1; 1 Tim. 1:5, 19) and “clear” (Acts 24:16; 1 Tim. 3:9; 2 Tim. 1:3; Heb. 13:18), but it can also be “guilty” (Heb. 10:22), “corrupted” (Titus 1:15), “weak” (1 Cor. 8:7, 10, 12), and “seared” (1 Tim. 4:2). The Bible Knowledge Commentary
There is an inner—moral voice. But only Scripture, enlightened by the Spirit, can be fully trusted. Fallenness has affected our conscience. However, creation & this inner, moral law (2:14–15) are all the knowledge of God that some humans possess. There was no Hebrew term that was equivalent to the Greek word for “conscience” (syneidesis). The Greek concept of an inner moral sense of right & wrong was often discussed by the Stoic philosophers. Paul was familiar with the Greek philosophers (he quotes Cleanthes in Acts 17:28; Menander in 1 Cor. 15:33; & Epimenides in Titus 1:12) from his early education in Tarsus. His hometown was known for its excellent schools of Greek rhetoric & philosophy. The Gospel according to Paul
Let's stick with the first 15 verses of Romans 2 for now. Read them over again tomorrow after you've read what the commentaries say and follow what I suggested before: What I want you to do is to really study what you read and reflect on it during the day, talking to the Lord about it. Then come here and write what you've learned, what your application is, and how it shows you that you are saved. OK? It's going to take a lot of thought on your part, but it will be good thought!
Don't forget about the kindle thing I reminded you of, and about the post I wrote that you didn't see... lol Hang in there, you're doing great!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 13, 2016 14:59:42 GMT -5
I told Leonard about the Kindle and he had said....something like, oh it sounds complicated..... well, remind me, and I will look at it later....
and then,
it seems like we have been busy busy busy, ever since,
and it got pushed waaaay to the back of the list ( so to speak).
He is out and about right now, but I will try to remember, to remind him when he gets back
( tho he usually comes home tired, hungry, and...... grumpy)
Sooooo I may have to wait until he eats and takes a nap,
and
prayfully, I will remember....
and
find a time when he is
up,
cheerful,
and willing LOL
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 13, 2016 21:28:45 GMT -5
I did read the commentaries and re-read the scriptures.
Unfortunately, I did sleep for a few hours in the afternoon.
But talking to the Lord about it ( from my own salvation veiwpoint), I feel that 'judging' others for sins, is not something something I do often, as I am aware of my own sins.
I am not blind to the fact, that others have sins, and that a lot of people are of the opinion they are NOT sins but their rights....and I sometimes think I do judge that but more often feel frustrated and sad, because if they continue to harden their hearts and mock, etc. Jesus and refuse His salvation they are headed for Hell.
Nevertheless, I need to pray , and check myself for judging thoughts, and take them captive replace them with the knowledge Jesus loves them...
when I catch myself entertaining judging the person ( especially knowing I am a sinner myself and but for the grace, love and sacrifice or Jesus, there would I be).
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Post by Cindy on Nov 14, 2016 9:41:21 GMT -5
I told Leonard about the Kindle and he had said....something like, oh it sounds complicated..... well, remind me, and I will look at it later....
and then,
it seems like we have been busy busy busy, ever since,
and it got pushed waaaay to the back of the list ( so to speak).
He is out and about right now, but I will try to remember, to remind him when he gets back
( tho he usually comes home tired, hungry, and...... grumpy)
Sooooo I may have to wait until he eats and takes a nap,
and
prayfully, I will remember....
and
find a time when he is
up,
cheerful,
and willing LOL
To download a borrowed book:
Open the email message "A Loaned Book for You."
Click the Get your loaned book now button. Your web browser will automatically launch to Amazon so you can accept the loan.
Sign in to your Amazon account.
If you have a Fire tablet, Kindle e-reader, or Kindle reading app, select which device you would like the book to be delivered to, and then click Accept loaned book.
After reading it again, I realized you can just send me his regular email address, it doesn't have to be his amazon account one. I did read the commentaries and re-read the scriptures.
Unfortunately, I did sleep for a few hours in the afternoon.
But talking to the Lord about it ( from my own salvation veiwpoint), I feel that 'judging' others for sins, is not something something I do often, as I am aware of my own sins.
I am not blind to the fact, that others have sins, and that a lot of people are of the opinion they are NOT sins but their rights....and I sometimes think I do judge that but more often feel frustrated and sad, because if they continue to harden their hearts and mock, etc. Jesus and refuse His salvation they are headed for Hell.
Nevertheless, I need to pray , and check myself for judging thoughts, and take them captive replace them with the knowledge Jesus loves them...
when I catch myself entertaining judging the person ( especially knowing I am a sinner myself and but for the grace, love and sacrifice or Jesus, there would I be).
I understand what you're saying about judging others for their sins. I just wanted to be sure you understood what Paul was saying and why he was saying it. Since it has nothing to do with what we're talking about though, we can drop it now.
Working on how you can know you're saved this way just doesn't feel like it's going to work. I think it would be better to just discuss the topic itself. We can even start a new thread if you want to, and you can continue to do your daily time with the Lord here on whatever book you want to read. OK? I'll go start another thread for you in this forum now then.
Have you seen the other post I wrote to you on Friday? So you don't have to go looking for it, I'll post it again here:
I'll start the new thread with what I just posted here for you.
fresh-hope.com/thread/2988/saved
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 14, 2016 9:49:24 GMT -5
Ohhhhh I totally misunderstood about the Kindle....he didn't read it and I gave him that impression.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 14, 2016 10:32:05 GMT -5
Thank you for re-posting your story....I remember some of it but not all.
It was very helpful.
There are some similarities but of course differences.
One thing that amazed me was you consciously thought your elders had more experience and knowledge and thus should guide you.
I don't think I ever thought that....I am not sure but perhaps because I didn't have a continuing set of parents for 6 years, I did not think like that....I maybe felt, acted, and thought on my own, and you know what pitfalls that brings!!
Nevertheless, I still did absorb my mom's thought of when you die that is it....
But at the same time, since she and dad had me go to Sunday school at least for one year, I also, picked up on Hell ( not so much Jesus and/or Heaven etc.
yet enough to long for it and at age 12 spent a whole night with some Christians, who were trying to get me saved, and I sooooooooooooo wanted to believe.
I finally said I was out of exhaustion, and a part of me really believed I did believe, while at the same time, doubt remained.
For a year, I tried to live as a Christian.....
until I decided I wanted to be liked by my peers
I had always been picked on, laughed at, mocked, called all manner of names ( ugly, 4 eyes, queer, etc etc.)
Being a 'Christian' did not stop the 'bullying' so I slowly drifted away ( having no one at all to lift me up in the faith and being way weak).
so like I said, some kind of sort of similarities with differences.
But I should prob finish this on the new thread because one key is.... works vs repentance for my doubting.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 14, 2016 14:39:16 GMT -5
11/14/16
Romans 2:17-29
The Jews and the Law
"a person is a Jew who is one inwardly;
and circumcision is circumcision of the heart,
by the Spirit,
not by the written code.
Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God."
In this verse are at least two applications for me, the 1st is to have a heart circumcised by God the Holy Spirit
and secondly,
Not to look for praise from other people ( a real problem for me, to this day) but rather from God.
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Post by Cindy on Nov 15, 2016 11:14:57 GMT -5
those are good applications, except that God already gave you a circumcised heart the instant you were saved, and that only happens once. It can't keep happening as that's unnecessary.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,399
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Post by fearnot on Nov 15, 2016 11:46:15 GMT -5
True...I knew that....but as always thank you for pointing it out.
I often get tripped up by forgetting, its all about God, and not about what I do, think, feel etc.
God never lies, is faithful, just and loving etc. etc.
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good! But we need to slow way down, or else do more on each section lol. Let's look at that spiritual gift you said you needed too. The term jumped out at me as well when I was studying it. It means a spiritual enablement by God. Part of the "gift" would be that they would learn to understand the gospel and all that Christ had for them. I got excited about this word because lately I've been thanking the Lord for all the spiritual blessings He's given me through Christ. “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” (Ephesians 1:3) I'd also asked Him to show me what those blessings were as I wasn't sure I knew them, or at least not all of them. Then I began studying Roman's LOL. And here's some of what I've discovered about all those blessings He has given us. First, the term "spiritual Blessings" is the same as "spiritual gift" so these two different scriptures are speaking about the same things. Here are what some of those blessings, or gifts are:
!!
