Post by Cindy on Dec 4, 2015 10:26:25 GMT -5
I was just remembering two wonderful women who were members of Fresh Hope years ago. Both of them were sweet, loving and great to know. But there was a problem. They both posted in the apologetics forum and came to find out they were on opposite sides when it came to predestination and how they understood it. They fought it out in apologetics and I do mean "fought". Oh yeah, some would call it debate, at least the way the term is understood on line these days, but there was nothing Christian about their posts other then that they slammed each other with scriptures. It was often ironic because I'd read their posts and could see that there were any number of times that they actually agreed with each other and were simply saying the same thing using different words, but neither of them realized it because there was so much animosity and hurt in each of their hearts by then. You see, their posts hadn't started out angry, they only became angry when they discovered that the other one wouldn't come over to see things their way. Things were said that hurt each of them deeply, and the more hurt they got, the more they pushed back at the one hurting them. It finally got so bad that the one would pick on the other one no matter what forum they were in and no matter what she said, because she looked for any little thing she could find to attack her on. These two beautiful women, who both loved the Lord their God, and who had begun by loving each other, were now the worst of enemies and couldn't stand the sight of each other. These wonderful women who many had come to love as they had shared themselves with us, became so caught up in their "debate" and wanting to "be right", they forgot to love each other and let Satan win the day. It got so bad that they both finally threw up their hands and left Fresh Hope because they couldn't bear to be around the other one, even though they each had many friends on fresh Hope, many mutual friends even. (including me)
It was absolutely heart breaking to watch and even harder to be the authority that had to deal with it all. Worst of all though was that I knew it must be breaking our Lord's heart to see and hear it. As a mother, I know what it's like to see two children that I love dearly, acting like they hate each other. It tore me up inside and I'm quite sure that's what it felt like to our Lord and still does each time one of His children thinks, speaks and acts this way toward another of His children. And you know what? After all the time these two women fought over predestination, no one won. Each of them lost in their own minds because they couldn't get the other to agree with them, but in truth because they were not acting out of love, but out of hurt and anger and both refused to be reconciled with each other. Because of that, each of them lost some of their closeness to the Lord, for He tells us that our relationship with other believers affects our relationship with Him and our prayer life. You can read more about that here if you're interested. They each also lost the encouragement and fellowship of the many other Christian friends they'd made at Fresh Hope - not because any of us stopped loving them, or that any of us didn't want to see them, but because they chose to leave the site and all their friends behind because they both refused to be reconciled to each other.
That's a lot of loss over something that was not all that important. They both believed in predestination, they just had different thoughts about how it all worked. So their fight was not about any of the core beliefs in our faith and even on just about everything else they agreed! It was just about predestination which, if we're honest with ourselves, is something that no human being will ever totally understand on this side of heaven. Anyone who thinks they have it all wrapped up with a bow, should think again, because even the very best bible teachers and pastors say that no one can really, truly understand it now. It's one of those things that God shows us, like the trinity, that we can believe even though we don't really, truly get it all. I'm sure that to God, looking down on arguments like this, He must roll His eyes at our pride and arrogance because it must look like toddlers who can't even count yet, insisting they can explain algebra. Personally, I think that many of us are going to be quite embarrassed when we get to heaven and discover that what we thought was great intellectual thinking was really exactly what God calls it: foolishness.
If only we could remember what Paul said in 1 Corinthians: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.” (1 Corinthians 13:1–3)
And then read the rest of the passage to remind ourselves of what God's kind of love looks and sounds like. Not to mention what John reminds us of when he says: “Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.” (1 John 2:9–11) realizing that the word "brother" is interchangeable with "sister" as well. Our Lord commands us to love and forgive each other... not a few days later, or weeks, months or years, but immediately. He wants us united in our love for Him and each other. I guess that's what I hated most about the apologetics forums. Instead of seeing love, I saw hate, anger, malice, division, strife, factions, etc. All things that God's Word lists as things we are to get rid of and says the people who live that way that "will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Oh, I know all the excuses that are given for the way people talk to each other in apologetics, that they are showing their love because they're showing God's Truth to the other person. Well, if I take my bible and literally use it to beat someone over the head with until they're hurt and unconscious, no matter how many times I tell them "I love them", the obvious truth is that I don't. I just want to be right, and want them to acknowledge it. And yes, sadly, I've been guilty of doing the very same thing until the Lord convicted me of it. After all, I saw other Christians doing it so it must be right... or so I thought at first. If you know me, then you know that I absolutely believe in defending the Truth, and speaking out about false teachings and false teachers, and false churches, cults, etc. I do not believe in being silent. God tells us we're to speak the the Truth in love. What's interesting to me is just before that verse, we're told something very important. He shows us what the wrong way to speak looks like when he says 'the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming". Look at these verses together for a moment and you may see something else important too: “Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.” (Ephesians 4:14–16) First notice the word, "instead". Instead of what? Instead of the cumming and craftiness of men. Instead of not knowing God's Word and instead of not living His Word. Instead of speaking the Truth in anger. "Speaking the Truth in love" can also be translated "with love". Thee are many ways to say the same thing. It's something I tried to teach my children when they were young. I could yell at them and say, "No! You can't have a cookie!" Or, I could softly, and gently, perhaps putting my hand gently on their head, say, "No, dear, you can't have a cookie right now, perhaps later though..." And of course it could be said any number of ways in between those two. The last example though would be speaking the truth with or in, love. That's not what we generally see in apologetics is it? We could remember that we're also told “We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.” (Romans 15:1–2) The Lord actually tells us EXACTLY how we are to interact with each other, He doesn't leave it up to us:
“And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:24–26) Notice how often the Lord stresses we're to be "gentle" with others?
“Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.” (Ephesians 4:2–3)
“Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.” (Philippians 4:5)
“Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.” (Colossians 3:12–15)
Let me mention one last excuse I often hear, "well even Jesus called people names.". Number one, we are not God, we cannot know another person's heart like He does. Number two, Jesus didn't generally call individuals by bad names or put individuals down. He called Israel's religious leadership in general those names. That though does not give us license to call groups bad names either though, as we're not to inflame other people by using bad names or language. That comes from our sin nature and Satan, not the Lord.
I could go on for a long time citing scriptures and showing what the Lord tells us about how we should act toward believers and unbelievers, but I honestly think everyone already knows this. If not, all they have to do is open their bibles and start reading and they'll find out as it's on just about every page. Or, simply consider how He treated us before we were saved: He loved us and saved us while we were still His enemies. We didn't have our theology down pat, we hated Him and yet He loved us and treated us with love and saved us. He calls us to do the same.... even in apologetics forums.
I miss my friends, both of the wonderful women I told you about and many other men and women who love the Lord but who also fell into this sad trap of Satan's. I look forward to being able to fellowship with them all in heaven one day.
It was absolutely heart breaking to watch and even harder to be the authority that had to deal with it all. Worst of all though was that I knew it must be breaking our Lord's heart to see and hear it. As a mother, I know what it's like to see two children that I love dearly, acting like they hate each other. It tore me up inside and I'm quite sure that's what it felt like to our Lord and still does each time one of His children thinks, speaks and acts this way toward another of His children. And you know what? After all the time these two women fought over predestination, no one won. Each of them lost in their own minds because they couldn't get the other to agree with them, but in truth because they were not acting out of love, but out of hurt and anger and both refused to be reconciled with each other. Because of that, each of them lost some of their closeness to the Lord, for He tells us that our relationship with other believers affects our relationship with Him and our prayer life. You can read more about that here if you're interested. They each also lost the encouragement and fellowship of the many other Christian friends they'd made at Fresh Hope - not because any of us stopped loving them, or that any of us didn't want to see them, but because they chose to leave the site and all their friends behind because they both refused to be reconciled to each other.
That's a lot of loss over something that was not all that important. They both believed in predestination, they just had different thoughts about how it all worked. So their fight was not about any of the core beliefs in our faith and even on just about everything else they agreed! It was just about predestination which, if we're honest with ourselves, is something that no human being will ever totally understand on this side of heaven. Anyone who thinks they have it all wrapped up with a bow, should think again, because even the very best bible teachers and pastors say that no one can really, truly understand it now. It's one of those things that God shows us, like the trinity, that we can believe even though we don't really, truly get it all. I'm sure that to God, looking down on arguments like this, He must roll His eyes at our pride and arrogance because it must look like toddlers who can't even count yet, insisting they can explain algebra. Personally, I think that many of us are going to be quite embarrassed when we get to heaven and discover that what we thought was great intellectual thinking was really exactly what God calls it: foolishness.
If only we could remember what Paul said in 1 Corinthians: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.” (1 Corinthians 13:1–3)
And then read the rest of the passage to remind ourselves of what God's kind of love looks and sounds like. Not to mention what John reminds us of when he says: “Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.” (1 John 2:9–11) realizing that the word "brother" is interchangeable with "sister" as well. Our Lord commands us to love and forgive each other... not a few days later, or weeks, months or years, but immediately. He wants us united in our love for Him and each other. I guess that's what I hated most about the apologetics forums. Instead of seeing love, I saw hate, anger, malice, division, strife, factions, etc. All things that God's Word lists as things we are to get rid of and says the people who live that way that "will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Oh, I know all the excuses that are given for the way people talk to each other in apologetics, that they are showing their love because they're showing God's Truth to the other person. Well, if I take my bible and literally use it to beat someone over the head with until they're hurt and unconscious, no matter how many times I tell them "I love them", the obvious truth is that I don't. I just want to be right, and want them to acknowledge it. And yes, sadly, I've been guilty of doing the very same thing until the Lord convicted me of it. After all, I saw other Christians doing it so it must be right... or so I thought at first. If you know me, then you know that I absolutely believe in defending the Truth, and speaking out about false teachings and false teachers, and false churches, cults, etc. I do not believe in being silent. God tells us we're to speak the the Truth in love. What's interesting to me is just before that verse, we're told something very important. He shows us what the wrong way to speak looks like when he says 'the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming". Look at these verses together for a moment and you may see something else important too: “Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.” (Ephesians 4:14–16) First notice the word, "instead". Instead of what? Instead of the cumming and craftiness of men. Instead of not knowing God's Word and instead of not living His Word. Instead of speaking the Truth in anger. "Speaking the Truth in love" can also be translated "with love". Thee are many ways to say the same thing. It's something I tried to teach my children when they were young. I could yell at them and say, "No! You can't have a cookie!" Or, I could softly, and gently, perhaps putting my hand gently on their head, say, "No, dear, you can't have a cookie right now, perhaps later though..." And of course it could be said any number of ways in between those two. The last example though would be speaking the truth with or in, love. That's not what we generally see in apologetics is it? We could remember that we're also told “We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.” (Romans 15:1–2) The Lord actually tells us EXACTLY how we are to interact with each other, He doesn't leave it up to us:
“And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:24–26) Notice how often the Lord stresses we're to be "gentle" with others?
“Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.” (Ephesians 4:2–3)
“Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.” (Philippians 4:5)
“Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.” (Colossians 3:12–15)
Let me mention one last excuse I often hear, "well even Jesus called people names.". Number one, we are not God, we cannot know another person's heart like He does. Number two, Jesus didn't generally call individuals by bad names or put individuals down. He called Israel's religious leadership in general those names. That though does not give us license to call groups bad names either though, as we're not to inflame other people by using bad names or language. That comes from our sin nature and Satan, not the Lord.
I could go on for a long time citing scriptures and showing what the Lord tells us about how we should act toward believers and unbelievers, but I honestly think everyone already knows this. If not, all they have to do is open their bibles and start reading and they'll find out as it's on just about every page. Or, simply consider how He treated us before we were saved: He loved us and saved us while we were still His enemies. We didn't have our theology down pat, we hated Him and yet He loved us and treated us with love and saved us. He calls us to do the same.... even in apologetics forums.
I miss my friends, both of the wonderful women I told you about and many other men and women who love the Lord but who also fell into this sad trap of Satan's. I look forward to being able to fellowship with them all in heaven one day.
!!
