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Post by Cindy on Sept 8, 2015 9:57:51 GMT -5
For many years I've been upset by the way we deal with others in apologetics forums all over the internet. When I insisted that it stop at Fresh Hope, many accused me of ruining Fresh Hope and most of the people stopped coming here when it was made plain that it would not continue to be allowed. Sadly, I too participated in doing the very same things when debating others who didn't believe. The difference was that the Word of God convicted me, and as the owner and admin I felt it was my duty to make sure that Fresh Hope honored God in all things, including apologetics. Even after all these years, I still feel the same way. Constantly God's Word convicts me that He did not intend for His children to beat unbelievers up with His Word. His Word is a sharp, two edged sword, and while we may not actually see the harm it does to them when we use it wrongly, He does. Our Lord's main teaching was always about love - loving Him, loving other believers, loving unbelievers, and even loving our enemies and His. We are to bring people into the Light of His Truth, through love, not through beating them up and calling them names. Yes, we are to show them the error of their ways. That must be done too, but it must be done in love and with love.
That's what Matthew 7:1–6 is all about. He tells us to judge ourselves before we start judging others. And He reminds us that our main goal in everything in life, including apologetics, is to bring Honor and Glory to God. It's not to "win" an argument or prove that He or His Word is right. We don't have to prove anything. The Lord and His Word do that all by themselves, and don't need our help. People argue and debate with us, not because what we have told them isn't true, but because they don't want to believe it. Deep down, they already know it's true because it speaks to their very spirit. The problem is that they don't want to listen to it, they don't want to hear it, because then they would have to change and change is very frightening.
If you study Matthew 5:21–26 it will show you what I'm talking about when I speak of calling others names. I know the standard argument is that Jesus Himself called people names and we show the verses where He called the pharisees, vipers, hypocrites, and blind guides. (such as in Matthew 23) There's often a big difference in what Jesus did and what we do though, that we seem to be as blind to as the pharisees were. For one thing, Jesus was not calling a single individual those names. He was calling the general pharisee leaders in His day those things. He also knew that there were some who were sincere and seeking the truth, so knew that His statement was "in general" and not meant to be taken as for every or any specific individual. Jesus never said, "you are a blind guide" or "you are a hypocrite". Instead, He said, "Woe to those who are blind guides", or hypocrites or whichever description He was using. Therefore the people listening could search their own hearts and decide for themselves if the shoe fit or not. He then described what a blind guide or hypocrite did so they'd know for sure. He didn't leave it to their imagination. Next He told them what the Lord wanted so they would also know the ways of God. This looks nothing like what's generally done by people in apologetics today. It looks more like what Jesus condemned in Matthew 5:21-26.
If we're going to think of those who oppose the Truth as our enemies, we need to remember a few things. First we need to remember that we ourselves were the enemies of God when He saved us. We did not clean ourselves up first. We couldn't. He saved us and did that for us. If we could not clean up our own acts and change our own hearts before God saved us, then how can we expect those who don't know Him to do so? It's impossible! All they can do is what we also did - act from their sin nature. Do we then respond from our own sin nature, or do we respond from the Love the Lord poured into our hearts when He saved us? If we read Matthew 5:38–48 it shows us how the Lord wants us to treat those we consider our enemies. He wants us to treat them with the Love He showed us. No, that doesn't mean putting up with blasphemy and false teaching. But it does mean that we are to do and say everything with love and in love, honoring God with our every word. If we can't do that, then we should not be speaking to them at all. We also need to remember, that we cannot change their hearts. Only God can do that. All we can do is share His Word with them and show them what His love looks like so that they will want what He has given us. Too often instead we beat them over the head with His Word and leave them laying in their blood while we yell at them and call them names instead. I know...I've done it too. It's very, very easy to fall into that, as of course it would be since it's from our sin nature which is natural to us.
We each need to ask the Lord to show us His Will and how He wants us to handle ourselves when talking to others who disagree. The other thing I've noticed over the years is that we don't seem to have very much discernment about who we should speak to and who we shouldn't, or when it's time to stop. Yet the Lord tells us ““Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.” (Matthew 7:6) We're told to warn a divisive person two times only and then to have nothing more to do with them. (Titus 3:10) So why do we see people debating with the very same people years later, when quite obviously absolutely nothing has been gained by it? Jesus Himself refused to answer those who resisted the Word of God. (Matt. 21:23–27; Luke 23:9) ) Paul refused to debate or argue with those who resisted as well and we see this in Acts 13:44-49 as well as other places. Jesus tells us to "shake the dust off our feet" when people continue to reject the Truth and we're even given examples of it. (Matt. 10:14; Acts 13:51; Acts 18:5–6.) Finally, we're also given more general instructions on how to deal with others, such as correcting and rebuking them with great patience and careful instruction (2 Timothy 4:2) and not to rebuke them harshly, but to exhort them as if they were your father or brother, mother or sister. (1 Timothy 5:1–2)
I've learned that often unbelievers, and those caught up in false teaching, come to apologetics for nothing more then to argue and cause strife. They aren't looking for the truth at all, and aren't in the least bit interested in finding it. When we have discerned that the person we are talking to has that type of an attitude, then it's time to do exactly what the Lord says and not cast the pearls of God's Word to pigs, to shake the dust from our feet and leave them to themselves. For no amount of speaking to them will change anything. God's people need to be discerning and not waste the precious time we have left on people who are not seeking the Truth. Let's recall what the Lord said to us through Paul: “Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.” (Ephesians 5:15–17)
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fearnot
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Post by fearnot on Sept 27, 2015 11:39:52 GMT -5
Excellent I don't remember reading Titus where it tells us to only warn a person 2 times and then have nothing to do with them.
Could you expand on that a little?
Would this in any way effect our training our children?
And what kinds of things would we be warning about?
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Post by Cindy on Sept 28, 2015 12:08:04 GMT -5
Ok, let's look at what that verse says: “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.” (Titus 3:10–11) We're to warn a divisive person which would also be someone who's self-willed,and unsubmissive. We're to warn people who are teaching error or those who are living in unrepentant sin. So we can see we're talking about warning people who at least say they are Christians, but in some way are not acting like it, because they're either refusing to admit that what they're teaching isn't true, or they're refusing to repent of a sinful lifestyle, or maybe are refusing to believe that what they're doing is sinful or what they're teaching isn't true. Because of that, they become divisive. Paul says to warn them twice and if they don't repent not to have anything to do with them any longer. What he means there in other words, is not to continue to argue with them about it. You warn them twice, if they don't repent, then you remind them that they've been warned twice, which really serves as their third warning, and then they should be told to leave. We're to tell them that not as an enemy, but with love, letting them know that when they do repent, they will be welcomed back with open arms.
This goes along with what Jesus told us too: “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” (Matthew 18:15–17) Notice that he tries twice, and on the third one if they don't repent, then they're to be treated the same way I described above. As far as churches go, this is referring to church discipline and excommunication until the person repents. Notice that in 2 Cor 13:2, Paul follows this procedure. Paul explains the purpose of this treatment here: “If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.” (2 Thessalonians 3:14–15)
Although it's not written about raising children, I think it's a pretty good rule of thumb and could easily be used with children too. One of the things I remind my daughter when she's getting frustrated is that she's the adult and there's absolutely no reason for her to be arguing with a child. As the adult she doesn't ever have to explain herself, unless she wants to for some reason. But a child should obey their parents immediately, without being told "why". Explanations shouldn't be the routine, they should be the exception. Otherwise, in the case of an emergency when there is no time to explain, the parent will have a major problem because the child won't want to obey until it's explained. This is actually how the Lord deals with us too. He generally doesn't answer "why" questions until after we've obeyed. (I know, cause I used to always ask Him) Back to the subject though, when a child is told to do something and doesn't obey, it would be a good practice to give them two warnings and on the third, they receive the discipline. Obviously with a child, you can't throw them out, or not associate with them, but you can put them in time out, and the rule of thumb for time out is no talking for however many minutes they're in for. In fact, the time doesn't start until they're quiet, so if they're continuing to talk they just have to sit there even longer as their 5 minutes (or whatever it is) won't officially start until they're quiet.
I really like how Jennifer does this with her kids. She uses the tho warnings herself and if they still haven't obeyed her, the third time they go into time out. She doesn't yell at them or argue with them, she simply tells them this is their 3rd warning so they now have to go sit in time out for a certain amount of time. For Gracie who's 6, it's usually 3 minutes and for Elijah, it's 5. When their time is up, she goes to them and asks them if they understand why they were in time out. I've never heard them say no, and don't think either of them ever has, because Jenn is always careful to make sure she explains the consequences when she gives them the first two warnings. So when they say "yes", she then asks them to tell her why they were disciplined. I love that she does that, because it makes sure the child really does understand what happened, and because she's raised them to know the Lord, doing it this way also gives them the chance to say they're sorry and won't do it again (repent). However, she had to teach them to do that and she did that by simply asking them if they were sorry or if they'd do it again, and explained how the Lord sees things like what they'd done and how He sees repentance. Anyway, after they've explained to her why they were in time out, and repented, she always tells them she loves them and forgives them, usually giving them a hug and then they're free to go back to whatever they were doing.
Jenn's done really well using this method and her children are well behaved because of it. I think too that they have a better understanding of how God deals with us from it too.
I hope I answered your questions, but I'm in a lot of pain today so my brain isn't being cooperative. So if I missed anything, please feel free to let me know or just ask again ok?
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fearnot
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Post by fearnot on Oct 2, 2015 12:14:29 GMT -5
I sure wish I had heard the way your daughter disciplines and teaches when I was raising my children.
They turned out to be good citizens but my son is unsaved for sure, and I am not certain about my daughter, she might be but she doesn't have a great foundation from me that's for sure!!
Anyway thank you sooooo much for your explanation.
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Post by Cindy on Oct 4, 2015 12:51:05 GMT -5
I'm very proud of Jenn, but honestly, your children were raised exactly how the Lord knew they would be and He gave them to you, and He doesn't make mistakes. After I got saved, I got angry at my mother (although she'd been dead many years) because she hadn't raised me to be a Christian but instead hated anything to do with God. I felt cheated, and kept thinking that if only I'd been raised in a loving Christian home, I'd have had a much better life and would have raised my children very, very differently, and they would have turned out much differently too. Well, the Lord didn't allow those thoughts and feelings to continue very long!  He showed me that by thinking that way, I was really angry with Him because He was the one responsible for giving me to my mother, and He knew exactly how I would be raised. Talk about pulling the rug out from under me, that sure did! Of course I immediately repented and asked the Lord to teach me the truth about this, which He did; and I began to take any thoughts or feelings about that subject captive from then on. As He taught me, I realized that the scripture that says He works all things together for our good, included everything that happened to me even before I was saved, including of course, how I was raised, because He knows who belongs to Him and has known long before we were ever born. He used the way I was raised to form me into the person I am today. I loved how He confirmed all this for me too. I have an Aunt that I haven't seen since I was a very little girl and she called me out of the blue. She was in her 80's then and was more active then I was! LOL. But what she said at one point during our conversation really surprised me. I remembered that she had been a Christian way back then even because my mom had put it in her will that if anything happened to her that she wanted my Aunt to raise me. Since my Mom hated anything to do with God, it always shocked me that out of all our relatives, she'd choose the only one that was very obviously saved, but she did. Anyway, My Aunt and I were talking about that, and she said it was strange how things worked out. Here I was, raised by someone who hated God, and I was saved, and there she was living her faith, and raised her children to know and love the Lord and live the way the Bible tells us to, and none of them were saved! 
The more I thought about it, I realized that it happens like that quite a bit, where the godly loving, parents wind up with adult children who aren't saved, and the atheists wind up with adult children who are saved. Of course there are also many godly parents who wind up with children that ARE saved too. The next day, the Lord reminded me of the conversation and reminded me again that He is always in control and doesn't make mistakes. He gave us to the people that raised us for a reason and a purpose; and while we can't always know what they are, we can know that both the reason(s) and purpose(s) were good and loving, because our Father is perfect good, and perfect love and can't act outside of who He is.
This is true for me and you, and it's also true for my children and your children, as well as our grandchildren. Like you, I too sometimes think about how I would have done things differently with my children, but now, when I do, I remind myself that God was in control and still is, so there's no reason to worry or wish things had happened differently. Because if things had happened differently, our children and grandchildren wouldn't have turned out the way the Lord wanted them to. I can't speak for you, but as for me, I wouldn't for one second want my children to be any different then they are now since that's what the Lord wants for them to be, and because I know for sure I'm not smarter then He is. Instead, I watch in amazement when He allows me to see His Hand at work in each of their lives and know that one day, they will each be saved and living a life worthy of their calling.
If you talk to Him about your children and grandchildren about this, and ask Him to allow you to see His Hand in their life, I bet He will do it for you too. I know I don't see a lot, and certainly don't know most of what He's doing, but what He does let me see is always amazing. I've noticed too that the better I know Him and His Word, the more of His Work in their lives I'm able to see. That's something I think is true for everyone. Plus, once I understood this about how I was raised, it changed how I viewed a lot of other stuff too. It was another way the Lord set me free.
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fearnot
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Post by fearnot on Oct 4, 2015 15:35:15 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy. I know what you said is true. I in my down depressed times only focus on the godly parents who have wonderful Godly children.
However, I do know that it also happens that even great pastors can have one child who is wild and worldly. It's almost as if they will do or become the exact opposite of their parents and/or brothers and sisters. And it's not because the parent is too busy doing church things ( that of course can happen) but even a parent who at least in my eyes does everything right ( well not everything but it sure seems like it to me)...even then, they can have a child or two that refuse our Lord's love and choose all manner of degradation, or evil, etc.
I also know that although it doesn't happen a lot, a person can live to a very very old age hating God, denying His existence, only to finally in the very end truly turn to Jesus and be saved. So it's possible a parent could die and their children are not saved but that does not mean that there is absolutely no hope they ever will be....with God nothing is impossible.
Thank you for reminding me of that!!
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Post by Cindy on Oct 5, 2015 11:27:51 GMT -5
Your welcome hon!
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Post by Cindy on Dec 4, 2015 10:24:31 GMT -5
I was just remembering two wonderful women who were members of Fresh Hope years ago. Both of them were sweet, loving and great to know. But there was a problem. They both posted in the apologetics forum and came to find out they were on opposite sides when it came to predestination and how they understood it. They fought it out in apologetics and I do mean "fought". Oh yeah, some would call it debate, at least the way the term is understood on line these days, but there was nothing Christian about their posts other then that they slammed each other with scriptures. It was often ironic because I'd read their posts and could see that there were any number of times that they actually agreed with each other and were simply saying the same thing using different words, but neither of them realized it because there was so much animosity and hurt in each of their hearts by then. You see, their posts hadn't started out angry, they only became angry when they discovered that the other one wouldn't come over to see things their way. Things were said that hurt each of them deeply, and the more hurt they got, the more they pushed back at the one hurting them. It finally got so bad that the one would pick on the other one no matter what forum they were in and no matter what she said, because she looked for any little thing she could find to attack her on. These two beautiful women, who both loved the Lord their God, and who had begun by loving each other, were now the worst of enemies and couldn't stand the sight of each other. These wonderful women who many had come to love as they had shared themselves with us, became so caught up in their "debate" and wanting to "be right", they forgot to love each other and let Satan win the day. It got so bad that they both finally threw up their hands and left Fresh Hope because they couldn't bear to be around the other one, even though they each had many friends on fresh Hope, many mutual friends even. (including me)
It was absolutely heart breaking to watch and even harder to be the authority that had to deal with it all. Worst of all though was that I knew it must be breaking our Lord's heart to see and hear it. As a mother, I know what it's like to see two children that I love dearly, acting like they hate each other. It tore me up inside and I'm quite sure that's what it felt like to our Lord and still does each time one of His children thinks, speaks and acts this way toward another of His children. And you know what? After all the time these two women fought over predestination, no one won. Each of them lost in their own minds because they couldn't get the other to agree with them, but in truth because they were not acting out of love, but out of hurt and anger and both refused to be reconciled with each other. Because of that, each of them lost some of their closeness to the Lord, for He tells us that our relationship with other believers affects our relationship with Him and our prayer life. You can read more about that here if you're interested. They each also lost the encouragement and fellowship of the many other Christian friends they'd made at Fresh Hope - not because any of us stopped loving them, or that any of us didn't want to see them, but because they chose to leave the site and all their friends behind because they both refused to be reconciled to each other.
That's a lot of loss over something that was not all that important. They both believed in predestination, they just had different thoughts about how it all worked. So their fight was not about any of the core beliefs in our faith and even on just about everything else they agreed! It was just about predestination which, if we're honest with ourselves, is something that no human being will ever totally understand on this side of heaven. Anyone who thinks they have it all wrapped up with a bow, should think again, because even the very best bible teachers and pastors say that no one can really, truly understand it now. It's one of those things that God shows us, like the trinity, that we can believe even though we don't really, truly get it all. I'm sure that to God, looking down on arguments like this, He must roll His eyes at our pride and arrogance because it must look like toddlers who can't even count yet, insisting they can explain algebra. Personally, I think that many of us are going to be quite embarrassed when we get to heaven and discover that what we thought was great intellectual thinking was really exactly what God calls it: foolishness.
If only we could remember what Paul said in 1 Corinthians: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.” (1 Corinthians 13:1–3)
And then read the rest of the passage to remind ourselves of what God's kind of love looks and sounds like. Not to mention what John reminds us of when he says: “Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.” (1 John 2:9–11) realizing that the word "brother" is interchangeable with "sister" as well. Our Lord commands us to love and forgive each other... not a few days later, or weeks, months or years, but immediately. He wants us united in our love for Him and each other. I guess that's what I hated most about the apologetics forums. Instead of seeing love, I saw hate, anger, malice, division, strife, factions, etc. All things that God's Word lists as things we are to get rid of and says the people who live that way that "will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Oh, I know all the excuses that are given for the way people talk to each other in apologetics, that they are showing their love because they're showing God's Truth to the other person. Well, if I take my bible and literally use it to beat someone over the head with until they're hurt and unconscious, no matter how many times I tell them "I love them", the obvious truth is that I don't. I just want to be right, and want them to acknowledge it. And yes, sadly, I've been guilty of doing the very same thing until the Lord convicted me of it. After all, I saw other Christians doing it so it must be right... or so I thought at first. If you know me, then you know that I absolutely believe in defending the Truth, and speaking out about false teachings and false teachers, and false churches, cults, etc. I do not believe in being silent. God tells us we're to speak the the Truth in love. What's interesting to me is just before that verse, we're told something very important. He shows us what the wrong way to speak looks like when he says 'the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming". Look at these verses together for a moment and you may see something else important too: “Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.” (Ephesians 4:14–16) First notice the word, "instead". Instead of what? Instead of the cumming and craftiness of men. Instead of not knowing God's Word and instead of not living His Word. Instead of speaking the Truth in anger. "Speaking the Truth in love" can also be translated "with love". Thee are many ways to say the same thing. It's something I tried to teach my children when they were young. I could yell at them and say, "No! You can't have a cookie!" Or, I could softly, and gently, perhaps putting my hand gently on their head, say, "No, dear, you can't have a cookie right now, perhaps later though..." And of course it could be said any number of ways in between those two. The last example though would be speaking the truth with or in, love. That's not what we generally see in apologetics is it? We could remember that we're also told “We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.” (Romans 15:1–2) The Lord actually tells us EXACTLY how we are to interact with each other, He doesn't leave it up to us:
“And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:24–26) Notice how often the Lord stresses we're to be "gentle" with others?
“Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.” (Ephesians 4:2–3)
“Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.” (Philippians 4:5)
“Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.” (Colossians 3:12–15)
Let me mention one last excuse I often hear, "well even Jesus called people names.". Number one, we are not God, we cannot know another person's heart like He does. Number two, Jesus didn't generally call individuals by bad names or put individuals down. He called Israel's religious leadership in general those names. That though does not give us license to call groups bad names either though, as we're not to inflame other people by using bad names or language. That comes from our sin nature and Satan, not the Lord.
I could go on for a long time citing scriptures and showing what the Lord tells us about how we should act toward believers and unbelievers, but I honestly think everyone already knows this. If not, all they have to do is open their bibles and start reading and they'll find out as it's on just about every page. Or, simply consider how He treated us before we were saved: He loved us and saved us while we were still His enemies. We didn't have our theology down pat, we hated Him and yet He loved us and treated us with love and saved us. He calls us to do the same.... even in apologetics forums.
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He showed me that by thinking that way, I was really angry with Him because He was the one responsible for giving me to my mother, and He knew exactly how I would be raised. Talk about pulling the rug out from under me, that sure did! Of course I immediately repented and asked the Lord to teach me the truth about this, which He did; and I began to take any thoughts or feelings about that subject captive from then on. As He taught me, I realized that the scripture that says He works all things together for our good, included everything that happened to me even before I was saved, including of course, how I was raised, because He knows who belongs to Him and has known long before we were ever born. He used the way I was raised to form me into the person I am today. I loved how He confirmed all this for me too. I have an Aunt that I haven't seen since I was a very little girl and she called me out of the blue. She was in her 80's then and was more active then I was! LOL. But what she said at one point during our conversation really surprised me. I remembered that she had been a Christian way back then even because my mom had put it in her will that if anything happened to her that she wanted my Aunt to raise me. Since my Mom hated anything to do with God, it always shocked me that out of all our relatives, she'd choose the only one that was very obviously saved, but she did. Anyway, My Aunt and I were talking about that, and she said it was strange how things worked out. Here I was, raised by someone who hated God, and I was saved, and there she was living her faith, and raised her children to know and love the Lord and live the way the Bible tells us to, and none of them were saved! 
