Post by Cindy on Aug 30, 2015 8:23:08 GMT -5
I've gotta share something with everyone about sensing if someone is a brother or sister in Christ. As you all know, my mom was not saved....far from it...she seemed to hate God and anything and everything He stood for, and especially the Catholic church. But, she loved me and wanted to be a good mother and allow me to make my own choices. Since I chose to believe God, even though she didn't, she allowed me to go to church with friends, bought me a bible and would every once in awhile, if we were in the area, would take me to the Christian Book Store in town. I just loved going there since it covered my two biggest passions: God and books!
What I'm about to describe actually happened more then once, with different people and always embarrassed me so much that I wanted to crawl in a hole when it happened. It made God look like a fool and the person look like an idiot, so I was not only embarrassed, but also angry when it would happen.
Since she wasn't saved, my Mom wasn't at all interested in anything in the store when she'd take me, so she'd just stand inside near the check out counter to keep an eye on me, while I browsed through all the neat books, cards, games, etc. One time, when I'd found a book I wanted and was paying for it, another woman came up to the counter and engaged my Mom in conversation. The woman was just bubbling over with joy over her salvation, which is always nice to see. But then it happened. She came out with: "I can tell you're saved too, because I can feel the Spirit within you", and then continued on quickly talking about what the Lord was doing in her life. My mom just looked at me, and I wanted to just crawl in a hole. I had no idea what she'd do, but she didn't pop the ladies bubble. She just let her continue blabbing on and let her hang herself. I don't know who I felt worse for, my mom, the lady making a fool of herself, or myself, or even the Lord, and I had no idea what to do.
Finally the woman stopped talking, but she ended her little speech just as I'd finished paying for my book, by asking my mom something like "so what's the Lord doing in your life now?" Again my mom surprised me, because all she said was, "Oh, he's keeping me busy, but I have to go now as we have a lot to do today", at which point she grabbed my hand and led me out of the store. My mom didn't say much about it when we got in the car, but I knew exactly what she was thinking. She thought it was a great example for me that would show me what fools Christians really were to fall for that stuff. But outwardly she just rolled her eyes.
That whole episode really hurt me too because I'd been trying so hard to convince my Mom that God was real, and that He really loved and cared about her personally. I felt like that woman had just sabotaged years of work. If that wasn't bad enough, when my mom took me back to the same book store a few months later, it happened again! Even worse was that it happened with a different person! Looking back, I have to wonder if both of these people went to the came church and were being taught this garbage.
This different woman told my mom almost the exact same thing...."I can tell you're saved too, because I can feel God's love in you". I wanted to just scream! Then she went on to make it worse by saying, "I have the gift of discernment and that's why I know; I've always been able to just look at someone I meet and tell if they're saved or not. " I felt sick to my stomach I was so upset, so that time, as I recall, I interrupted before the woman could say anything else and told my Mom I was ready to go. I just wanted to get away from her! I felt like crying when I got in the car and it was all I could do to keep from it till I was home in my room alone. I didn't go back to that store until I had my own car and could drive myself.
This is really another example of people who think that discernment is a feeling, and it's not. I wrote about this before in the thread: Discernment -What it Is & Isn't. The Lord specifically tells us not to trust our feelings and He doesn't add, "except when" to that statement. Plus, He tells us that over and over again. Now, I'm not saying that we don't get feelings as well, or that our feelings aren't sometimes or even often, right. What I am saying is that no matter what our feelings say, we need to check with God's Word to determine if what we're feeling is right or not. But how do we do that when we're saying we "feel" as though someone is a good person or is born again or that we feel as though we shouldn't trust someone, etc. We can't look up the person's name in the Bible and see what kind of person they are, after all. But we can look and see what God tells us to do to determine what kind of person someone is, and I can tell you right now that it has absolutely nothing to do with our feelings! Instead, He tells us to look at their lives. What kind of fruit has their life produced? Obviously, we can't tell that at a first meeting with someone, we have to get to know them first, which is exactly what the Lord intended.
In fact, the Lord says that if someone tells us that they're born again, that we're to accept that as a fact unless or until we discover fruit that shows that they may be deluded, mistaken or outright lying. He tells us too that we're to love everyone and treat everyone with love regardless of whether or not they're saved, regardless of whether or not we like them, or trust them, and most especially, regardless of how we "feel" about them. We're to follow His example, and we're also to remember that no matter what we say or do to someone, that we're actually saying and doing it to the Lord.
The bottom line is that no matter how many times a person's been "right" in how they perceived what a person was like, what they're doing is not discernment. At least it's not biblical discernment. In fact, it can often be self fulfilled prophecy. We decide we don't like or can't trust someone based on our feelings, and after that, we begin looking for things to verify our feelings about them. The Lord tells us that we will find whatever we're looking for. If we're looking for trash, that's what we'll find. If we're looking for good, that's what we'll find. He then goes on to say that He wants us looking for the good in others, so when we look to find fault with someone, it's actually a sin. We usually don't see it as looking to find fault though. Instead, we simply "pick up on" negative things that are said about people, and we grab hold of anything bad they've done.
When we've already made a determination about what a person is like, we will twist what they say and do to make it conform with our preconceived ideas about them. Of course we don't realize that we're doing that, and we'd be horribly offended if someone told us that's what we were doing, but it's true none the less. I know it's true because it's what God says, and I've also experienced it myself, because I used to think I could tell about other people right away too, until the Lord taught me otherwise.
I felt I should share this with everyone because I'd sure hate to see what happened to me and my Mom happen to someone else. Unfortunately the ladies who said these things to my Mom, never learned what a fool they'd made of themselves, or how badly they'd dishonored the Holy Spirit by claiming that He'd given them these "feelings". I feel badly for them too because I'm sure that the last thing they ever wanted to do was dishonor the Lord of mislead others about discernment.
I just re-read what I wrote and realize that I made it sound like it was a one sided conversation with the other women doing the talking and my mom being silent for the most part, but that's not what happened. I just didn't want to write out the whole conversation because I don't remember it verbatim except those parts, I only remember the other parts "in general". But I should have at least said that my mother nodded her head and allowed her to think she was a Christian. As I said, to her it was a great way to teach me how stupid Christians are.
Nor did she make it obvious at all that she wasn't interested in looking at anything in the store. She'd have been uncomfortable doing that. It was a very small store. (my kitchen is bigger then it was lol) It wasn't much bigger then a large walk in closet really, so there wasn't anywhere for my mom to go. No matter where you stood in the store, you were in front of products that we're for sale, posters etc. My mom was very good at acting and she made great use of her skills. How else could she have fooled a baptist preacher's 21 year old daughter into thinking she was her "friend" and then defiling her? Both times she told the women she'd already looked around and was just waiting for me. No, I'm sorry, but there was no way for those women to know whether or not my mother was a Christian or anything else. She always dressed like a lady and spoke like one too. (except when she was in a bar)
The Holy Spirit didn't give those women any feelings about my mother and He never would. He would never give anyone a "feeling" because that would go against God's Word. He doesn't tell us not to trust our feelings and then turn around and give us a feeling to trust.
I'm sure that if those women were born again and if they had a close relationship with the Lord and continued in it, and if read His Word regularly, that eventually He would teach them that He doesn't send or give us "feelings" and that we're to only trust His Word. (and that's a lot of "if's.") When I said they "never learned what a fool they'd made of themselves, or how badly they'd dishonored the Holy Spirit by claiming that He'd given them these "feelings", I meant that they didn't learn it from me right away, when it happened. They walked out of that store quite pleased and proud of themselves and I'm quite sure that they told all their friends about how they "discerned" that this woman in the book store was a Christian. Worse, they would have added that experience to their mental list of experiences that proved they're "right". . In other words, I was talking about then, not 40 years later. I'm well aware that we all start from nothing and have to learn from God's Word and didn't mean that they never would learn that they'd been wrong.
However, that being said, I also have to say that this is a false teaching as well as a misunderstanding. There are churches that absolutely believe in their "feelings" and "experiences" and they place those feelings and experiences above God's Word as far as determining what's right or true and what's not. That's why I said I'd be willing to bet they both went to the same church. Although like most false teaching, this is much more prevalent today, it was around back then too. So if those ladies were involved in this and continued in it, they could very well still believe every bit of it today.
It's one of those things that is "Natural" for us to fall for because it glorifies our flesh, and our selves, not God. (although we find ways to tell ourselves that it glorifies God) We want to believe in ourselves, our feelings and our experiences, regardless of what God's Word says. That's partly what the whole thing about the trips to heaven and hell is about (as well as many other things). "I had an experience, therefore it's true", instead of "God's Word says this and therefore it's false". This is just one of the many ways that Satan has devised to undermine our belief in the sufficiency of God's Word. First he gets us to add something to it, like feelings or experiences and then after awhile, he gets us to place those feelings and experiences above God's Word. This is what's behind the whole "contemplative" movement and the emergence movement and several others today.
We see this all the time in both those who've been born again and those who haven't. There is no difference between the two except for the "label" that's been applied to the feeling. Those who haven't been born again and are into the New Age or Occult usually refer to this as either being psychic or knowledge from their higher self or an ascended being (demon); those who aren't involved in that will refer to it as their instincts or gut feelings; those who've been born again and have fallen into this false teaching will call it discernment or even a word of knowledge. If we're honest with ourselves and with the Lord, we'll recognize this and repent of it and study His Word with Him to find out what He wants us to see and know about others.
Solomon asked the Lord to give him a discerning heart and it pleased God to do so. God didn't wave a magic wand and suddenly make Solomon wise and discerning though. Instead, Solomon studied God's Word and grew wise and discerning from that with God's help. “So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?”” (1 Kings 3:9) Later, Solomon began to trust his feelings instead and wound up sinning against the Lord. First, even though the Lord had specifically told him not to do so, Solomon trusted his feelings and married more then one woman, and a foreigner and unsaved woman at that. As he continued in his sin, he added more and more women who were unsaved as his "wives". They did exactly what the Lord told him they would and pulled him even further away from God. The results of his sins caused the Kingdom to be divided in two and Israel's fall began then and there. Solomon seems to have realized his sin and repented as he later wrote Ecclesiastes as well as proverbs.
“for giving prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the young— let the wise listen and add to their learning, and let the discerning get guidance— for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.” (Proverbs 1:4–7)
“A patient man has great understanding, but a quick-tempered man displays folly.” (Proverbs 14:29)
“The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly.” (Proverbs 15:14)
“The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out.” (Proverbs 18:15)
“It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way.” (Proverbs 19:2)
“But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.” (James 3:17)
“And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.” (Philippians 1:9–11)
What I'm about to describe actually happened more then once, with different people and always embarrassed me so much that I wanted to crawl in a hole when it happened. It made God look like a fool and the person look like an idiot, so I was not only embarrassed, but also angry when it would happen.
Since she wasn't saved, my Mom wasn't at all interested in anything in the store when she'd take me, so she'd just stand inside near the check out counter to keep an eye on me, while I browsed through all the neat books, cards, games, etc. One time, when I'd found a book I wanted and was paying for it, another woman came up to the counter and engaged my Mom in conversation. The woman was just bubbling over with joy over her salvation, which is always nice to see. But then it happened. She came out with: "I can tell you're saved too, because I can feel the Spirit within you", and then continued on quickly talking about what the Lord was doing in her life. My mom just looked at me, and I wanted to just crawl in a hole. I had no idea what she'd do, but she didn't pop the ladies bubble. She just let her continue blabbing on and let her hang herself. I don't know who I felt worse for, my mom, the lady making a fool of herself, or myself, or even the Lord, and I had no idea what to do.
Finally the woman stopped talking, but she ended her little speech just as I'd finished paying for my book, by asking my mom something like "so what's the Lord doing in your life now?" Again my mom surprised me, because all she said was, "Oh, he's keeping me busy, but I have to go now as we have a lot to do today", at which point she grabbed my hand and led me out of the store. My mom didn't say much about it when we got in the car, but I knew exactly what she was thinking. She thought it was a great example for me that would show me what fools Christians really were to fall for that stuff. But outwardly she just rolled her eyes.
That whole episode really hurt me too because I'd been trying so hard to convince my Mom that God was real, and that He really loved and cared about her personally. I felt like that woman had just sabotaged years of work. If that wasn't bad enough, when my mom took me back to the same book store a few months later, it happened again! Even worse was that it happened with a different person! Looking back, I have to wonder if both of these people went to the came church and were being taught this garbage.
This different woman told my mom almost the exact same thing...."I can tell you're saved too, because I can feel God's love in you". I wanted to just scream! Then she went on to make it worse by saying, "I have the gift of discernment and that's why I know; I've always been able to just look at someone I meet and tell if they're saved or not. " I felt sick to my stomach I was so upset, so that time, as I recall, I interrupted before the woman could say anything else and told my Mom I was ready to go. I just wanted to get away from her! I felt like crying when I got in the car and it was all I could do to keep from it till I was home in my room alone. I didn't go back to that store until I had my own car and could drive myself.
This is really another example of people who think that discernment is a feeling, and it's not. I wrote about this before in the thread: Discernment -What it Is & Isn't. The Lord specifically tells us not to trust our feelings and He doesn't add, "except when" to that statement. Plus, He tells us that over and over again. Now, I'm not saying that we don't get feelings as well, or that our feelings aren't sometimes or even often, right. What I am saying is that no matter what our feelings say, we need to check with God's Word to determine if what we're feeling is right or not. But how do we do that when we're saying we "feel" as though someone is a good person or is born again or that we feel as though we shouldn't trust someone, etc. We can't look up the person's name in the Bible and see what kind of person they are, after all. But we can look and see what God tells us to do to determine what kind of person someone is, and I can tell you right now that it has absolutely nothing to do with our feelings! Instead, He tells us to look at their lives. What kind of fruit has their life produced? Obviously, we can't tell that at a first meeting with someone, we have to get to know them first, which is exactly what the Lord intended.
In fact, the Lord says that if someone tells us that they're born again, that we're to accept that as a fact unless or until we discover fruit that shows that they may be deluded, mistaken or outright lying. He tells us too that we're to love everyone and treat everyone with love regardless of whether or not they're saved, regardless of whether or not we like them, or trust them, and most especially, regardless of how we "feel" about them. We're to follow His example, and we're also to remember that no matter what we say or do to someone, that we're actually saying and doing it to the Lord.
The bottom line is that no matter how many times a person's been "right" in how they perceived what a person was like, what they're doing is not discernment. At least it's not biblical discernment. In fact, it can often be self fulfilled prophecy. We decide we don't like or can't trust someone based on our feelings, and after that, we begin looking for things to verify our feelings about them. The Lord tells us that we will find whatever we're looking for. If we're looking for trash, that's what we'll find. If we're looking for good, that's what we'll find. He then goes on to say that He wants us looking for the good in others, so when we look to find fault with someone, it's actually a sin. We usually don't see it as looking to find fault though. Instead, we simply "pick up on" negative things that are said about people, and we grab hold of anything bad they've done.
When we've already made a determination about what a person is like, we will twist what they say and do to make it conform with our preconceived ideas about them. Of course we don't realize that we're doing that, and we'd be horribly offended if someone told us that's what we were doing, but it's true none the less. I know it's true because it's what God says, and I've also experienced it myself, because I used to think I could tell about other people right away too, until the Lord taught me otherwise.
I felt I should share this with everyone because I'd sure hate to see what happened to me and my Mom happen to someone else. Unfortunately the ladies who said these things to my Mom, never learned what a fool they'd made of themselves, or how badly they'd dishonored the Holy Spirit by claiming that He'd given them these "feelings". I feel badly for them too because I'm sure that the last thing they ever wanted to do was dishonor the Lord of mislead others about discernment.
I just re-read what I wrote and realize that I made it sound like it was a one sided conversation with the other women doing the talking and my mom being silent for the most part, but that's not what happened. I just didn't want to write out the whole conversation because I don't remember it verbatim except those parts, I only remember the other parts "in general". But I should have at least said that my mother nodded her head and allowed her to think she was a Christian. As I said, to her it was a great way to teach me how stupid Christians are.
Nor did she make it obvious at all that she wasn't interested in looking at anything in the store. She'd have been uncomfortable doing that. It was a very small store. (my kitchen is bigger then it was lol) It wasn't much bigger then a large walk in closet really, so there wasn't anywhere for my mom to go. No matter where you stood in the store, you were in front of products that we're for sale, posters etc. My mom was very good at acting and she made great use of her skills. How else could she have fooled a baptist preacher's 21 year old daughter into thinking she was her "friend" and then defiling her? Both times she told the women she'd already looked around and was just waiting for me. No, I'm sorry, but there was no way for those women to know whether or not my mother was a Christian or anything else. She always dressed like a lady and spoke like one too. (except when she was in a bar)
The Holy Spirit didn't give those women any feelings about my mother and He never would. He would never give anyone a "feeling" because that would go against God's Word. He doesn't tell us not to trust our feelings and then turn around and give us a feeling to trust.
I'm sure that if those women were born again and if they had a close relationship with the Lord and continued in it, and if read His Word regularly, that eventually He would teach them that He doesn't send or give us "feelings" and that we're to only trust His Word. (and that's a lot of "if's.") When I said they "never learned what a fool they'd made of themselves, or how badly they'd dishonored the Holy Spirit by claiming that He'd given them these "feelings", I meant that they didn't learn it from me right away, when it happened. They walked out of that store quite pleased and proud of themselves and I'm quite sure that they told all their friends about how they "discerned" that this woman in the book store was a Christian. Worse, they would have added that experience to their mental list of experiences that proved they're "right". . In other words, I was talking about then, not 40 years later. I'm well aware that we all start from nothing and have to learn from God's Word and didn't mean that they never would learn that they'd been wrong.
However, that being said, I also have to say that this is a false teaching as well as a misunderstanding. There are churches that absolutely believe in their "feelings" and "experiences" and they place those feelings and experiences above God's Word as far as determining what's right or true and what's not. That's why I said I'd be willing to bet they both went to the same church. Although like most false teaching, this is much more prevalent today, it was around back then too. So if those ladies were involved in this and continued in it, they could very well still believe every bit of it today.
It's one of those things that is "Natural" for us to fall for because it glorifies our flesh, and our selves, not God. (although we find ways to tell ourselves that it glorifies God) We want to believe in ourselves, our feelings and our experiences, regardless of what God's Word says. That's partly what the whole thing about the trips to heaven and hell is about (as well as many other things). "I had an experience, therefore it's true", instead of "God's Word says this and therefore it's false". This is just one of the many ways that Satan has devised to undermine our belief in the sufficiency of God's Word. First he gets us to add something to it, like feelings or experiences and then after awhile, he gets us to place those feelings and experiences above God's Word. This is what's behind the whole "contemplative" movement and the emergence movement and several others today.
We see this all the time in both those who've been born again and those who haven't. There is no difference between the two except for the "label" that's been applied to the feeling. Those who haven't been born again and are into the New Age or Occult usually refer to this as either being psychic or knowledge from their higher self or an ascended being (demon); those who aren't involved in that will refer to it as their instincts or gut feelings; those who've been born again and have fallen into this false teaching will call it discernment or even a word of knowledge. If we're honest with ourselves and with the Lord, we'll recognize this and repent of it and study His Word with Him to find out what He wants us to see and know about others.
Solomon asked the Lord to give him a discerning heart and it pleased God to do so. God didn't wave a magic wand and suddenly make Solomon wise and discerning though. Instead, Solomon studied God's Word and grew wise and discerning from that with God's help. “So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?”” (1 Kings 3:9) Later, Solomon began to trust his feelings instead and wound up sinning against the Lord. First, even though the Lord had specifically told him not to do so, Solomon trusted his feelings and married more then one woman, and a foreigner and unsaved woman at that. As he continued in his sin, he added more and more women who were unsaved as his "wives". They did exactly what the Lord told him they would and pulled him even further away from God. The results of his sins caused the Kingdom to be divided in two and Israel's fall began then and there. Solomon seems to have realized his sin and repented as he later wrote Ecclesiastes as well as proverbs.
“for giving prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the young— let the wise listen and add to their learning, and let the discerning get guidance— for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.” (Proverbs 1:4–7)
“A patient man has great understanding, but a quick-tempered man displays folly.” (Proverbs 14:29)
“The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly.” (Proverbs 15:14)
“The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out.” (Proverbs 18:15)
“It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way.” (Proverbs 19:2)
“But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.” (James 3:17)
“And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.” (Philippians 1:9–11)
!!
