fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Feb 23, 2020 11:51:35 GMT -5
Back to the 2nd woe which I posted yesterday. A question might be asked. if demons can kill humans, I think the answer would be: yes. Humans can kill, and I believe this scripture lets us know that demons can kill big time:
[smear:#253a86]"15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind." Revelation 9:15[/smear:#991f15:0]
Killing a third of mankind seems like sufficient ability to kill! I think the world population is close to 8 billion... so a third....would be around 3 billion? I am horrible at math.....but its for sure billions of people, that is a LOT!!!
And so now we understand why Jesus said:
[smear:#a80771]" 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved". Matthew 24:21,22[/smear:#310857:0]
We heard about the demons 'like' locust in the first woe, but now its horses, but these are not normal horses, I can only say sadly as I really like normal horses), these are demonic horses. [smear:#597f0f] 17 "And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths, 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound." Revelation 9:17-19[/smear:#8b470b:0]
So it seems like people are going to burn to death ( a terrible way to die) and/or be suffocated and asphyxiated ....also what to me seems like a most unpleasant way to die....of course the really terrible thing is they are not saved....that is heart breaking.
In fact the way these horses kill reminds one a bit of the 2 witnesses:
[smear:#e6192e]"5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed". Revelation 11:5[/smear:#e6d419:0] Also:
[smear:#dae619]6"Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup". Psalm 11:6[/smear:#e61926:0]
But apparently not only do their mouths cause death, but their tails also which are like snakes
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Feb 24, 2020 13:13:34 GMT -5
Now we come to chapter 10 of Revelation, which almost seems like an interlude of some kind, and yet also seems very dramatic. I won't get thru all of Ch 10 today....
( I am still sleep deprived, I actually opened up my computer to start at about 8 this morning, and only woke up....feel asleep so fast, I did not know it....Leonard came back home from driving children to school etc. so woke me up....I haven't had days of falling asleep like that in a looong time)!
Anyway lets look at verse one of Ch 10
[smear:#13293c]1 "Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire". Revelation 10:1[/smear:#19e651:0]
I have to tell you, the first thing I thought when reading this description was: How cool, image being wrapped in a cloud!!! and.... having a rainbow over your head... awesome!!
I think this is to be an encouragement to God's people, the believers during all these judgments....it reminds them that God's kingdom will come!!
To be sure, this is a unique chapter, starting with this unique angel!!
First of all we are told this angel is mighty ( strong). Also we are told he is 'another' angel ( I point that out, because some commentators, think this angel.... is Jesus, but this verse says he is another angel).
Furthermore, since this angel comes to earth, if it were Jesus, he would be coming to touch earth before he began His 1,000 year reign!! When we are rapture Jesus does not come down and place His feet on earth, we meet Him in the sky.
The fact that this is an extremely glorious angel, is not unusual, satan/Lucifer had that kind of splendor also.
As we see in Ezekiel:
[smear:#5b076e]“12...."You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering.....
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor." Ezekiel 28,12,13,17[/smear:#e7d408:0]
The cloud and legs like pillars of fires reminds us of Exodus, and how the cloud and pillar of fire gave protection, guidance...so that he represents judgment, yes, but also God's promise of His kingdom.
Verse 2 says this about the angel:
[smear:#103345]2 He had a little scroll open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the land," Revelation 10:2[/smear:#329412:0]
He is holding a scroll in his hand and we might ask, what is written in it? The title deed to the earth, which God is going to take back.
This angel puts his foot on the sea and earth.....as a demonstration God is 'putting His foot down'!!! Enough is enough!!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Feb 25, 2020 11:44:54 GMT -5
Today more about Revelation chapter 10:
[smear:#4fe619]3 and called out with a loud voice, like a lion roaring. When he called out, the seven thunders sounded. 4 And when the seven thunders had sounded, I was about to write, but I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down.” Revelation 10:3,4[/smear:#d419e6:0]
Is this the only place we hear about a loud voice....even in the OT like:
[smear:#e61978]8 "The lion has roared; who will not fear? The Lord God has spoken; who can but prophesy?” Amos 3:8[/smear:#20982d:0] [smear:#e68719] 16 "The Lord roars from Zion, and utters his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth quake". Joel 3:16[/smear:#013354:0]
The roar demonstrates God’s ferociousness in judgment.
So this will get the proper attention and the thunders are often associated with God's judgment ( as in this judgment against the Philistines:
[smear:#e67f19]10 "As Samuel was offering up the burnt offering, the Philistines drew near to attack Israel. But the Lord thundered with a mighty sound that day against the Philistines and threw them into confusion, and they were defeated before Israel". I Samuel 7:10 [/smear:#a319e6:0]
It seems that what is said is of great importance, too terrifying and of Divine privacy, so should not be written down, like everything else John has been writing down. Perhaps because the end was not near at the time of John ? Later on God does say to John:
[smear:#8c8016]10 "And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near". Revelation 22:10[/smear:#8219e6:0]
I don't know if what they said were ever recorded tho, when God said not to seal up the words. But it is not the first time God has said "don't write it and connected it to the end times:
[smear:#8f19e6]“...Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end". Daniel 12:9[/smear:#78c90e:0]
On the other hand, there are some ( or many many) things God does not let us know, perhaps John was the only one who knows what was said, and that is OK God is sovereign, if He chooses not to tell us certain things, then I am good with that.
I am in agreement with Moses when he said:
[smear:#9d19e6]"29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29[/smear:#e61954:0]
Something similar happened to Paul:
[smear:#324d54]"4 and he ( Paul speaking of himself) heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter". 2 Corinthians 12:4[/smear:#e619d7:0]
We can be sure there is a good reason, and we need to honor, respect and trust our God's wisdom and reasons for not telling us, we are His Children He is God. Perhaps, that is one of the points this makes.
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Post by Cindy on Feb 26, 2020 10:53:03 GMT -5
Back to the first of the 3 woes [smear:#243e4f] "1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. 2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft". Revelation 9:1,2[/smear:#5c7d26:0]
This 'star' which is not a celestial body like a sun or comet, or meteor because it is a 'he' is given a key...
As I mentioned I think it is satan and some commentators think that he might also be Abaddon ( Apollyon) that is mentioned in V. 11 ( tho perhaps, that could be a lesser demon)
[smear:#2b6168]11 They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon Revelation 9:11[/smear:#346523:0]
It seems insane that people would 'worship' demons, assuming they really understood and knew it, but scripture says they do and now, they are going to get their fill of them.
But verse 20 says this:
[smear:#301538]"20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons Revelation 9:20[/smear:#33481a:0]
Unless, I am reading this wrong, it seems that even tho these terrible demonic and incredibly painful stings they unleash, does not make all people stop worshiping them??
So what am I talking about? Here is what happens:
[smear:#861586]3 "Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone" 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it.They will long to die, but death will flee from them . Revelation 9: 3-5[/smear:#60e619:0]
What is interesting and very sad is the massive locust plague happening right now....these are 'real' locust... but the ones in Revelation 9, have the outer body of these demons being locust like ( yet different!!!).
Jude gives us more information, I think, about these particular demons ( fallen angels):
[smear:#ac19e6]"6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day" Jude 1:6[/smear:#0f1c2a:0]
All demons are evil to the core, but I get the impression that these are super malevolent and so were kept here until the judgment.
These demons looking like locust but with a sting like a scorpion makes it clear they are not normal earthly locust.
[smear:#88430e]"...they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. Revelation 9:3[/smear:#231a4c:0]
Earthly locust do not have a scorpion sting! Real locust eat the grass etc. Furthermore they also do not look like......
[smear:#8c910f]7 "In appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, 8 their hair like women's hair, and their teeth like lions' teeth; 9 they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle". Revelation 9:7-9[/smear:#e61932:0]
Plus it says they have a king...real locust do not have a king.
Additionally they have power to inflict pain so bad people want to die. I guess ( but not really) if it was just a one time sting.... or maybe it only went on for a day, or a week unbelievers 'might' be able to get over it....kind of forgive and forget but seriously, I don't see how that could happen even if it was only for a day these are monsters, demons from the pit, I can't imagine anyone 'forgetting' such horror!
but this goes on for almost 1/2 a year.....5 whole months then how can they continue to worship demons???
But the do not torment those who belong to God.... wouldn't unbelievers notice that and repent, ask forgiveness etc. I am pretty sure they have heard the gospel by now. So prayerfully some may yet, as God does not allow these demons to kill them.
Which it sounds like is, IF God would let the demons freedom to kill, they could and would.
Oh and as a side note, in case someone wants to say, well of course they could not hurt the grass it was all burnt up earlier. But time has passed since that happened, so it might mean there was seed in the soil etc., and thus, there has been a partial recovery. But really these are NOT earthly locust!
And it may be this is a 'spiritual' pain....but torment and pain that people want to die, but they cannot and there is no relief. You would surely think, that after attempting drastic means of suicide perhaps over and over, crashing ones car over a cliff, or drinking poison, or shooting oneself in the head etc etc etc. but continue to live and not die... That too, would really wake people up to the truth, and they would run to Jesus for salvation!!
These verses in Job remind us of this:
[smear:#087c3b]"20 “Why is light given to him who is in misery, and life to the bitter in soul, 21 who long for death, but it comes not, and dig for it more than for hidden treasures, 22 who rejoice exceedingly and are glad when they find the grave"? Job 3:20-22[/smear:#18064f:0]
These demons they've been worshiping have just one purpose: to cause as much pain to humans as possible!!!
And tomorrow we will look at the 2nd Woe!!!
Good job!
And now for the 2nd Woe (trumpet #6), I am not sure if I can get thru all of it today, but here are the verses.
[smear:#530b17]13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. 17 And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound. 20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. Revelation 9:13-21[/smear:#0d4a11:0]
Each trumpet bring more severe judgment and so it is with this one. They will still be some who will yet come to salvation, They might be like those who learn righteousness spoken of in Isaiah, but many others who will harden their hearts even more.
[smear:#7b189b]"......For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness". Isaiah 26:9[/smear:#209218:0]
The 4 bound angels are clearly demons, and because there are only 4 of them they must be either very powerful, or very evil, or more likely, both!!
One might wonder, what's up with the Euphrates River? Well to begin with it was one of the four rivers of the Garden of Eden
[smear:#3cca47]"......And the fourth river is the Euphrates." Genesis 2:14[/smear:#19729f:0]
And therefore in the area where satan deceived Adam and Eve... the 1st lie, the 1st sin, the 1st murder, the tower of Babel was in the same area etc.
Anyway, these 4 demons seem to be sort of like commanders to a demonic horde/army.... and they will kill a 1/3 of humanity: I think the number comes to two hundred million of them!!! and they will kill a third of mankind, by fire and smoke and sulfur. When they are done over 1/2 of the earth's human population will have died ( when the 4th seal was opened 1/4 died and now 1/3).
These take place at the very end of the Tribulation and very few will be saved at this point; at least until Jesus returns at which time He will save the remnant of Jews. That will be amazing!
Back to the 2nd woe which I posted yesterday. A question might be asked. if demons can kill humans, I think the answer would be: yes. Humans can kill, and I believe this scripture lets us know that demons can kill big time:
[smear:#253a86]"15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind." Revelation 9:15[/smear:#991f15:0]
Killing a third of mankind seems like sufficient ability to kill! I think the world population is close to 8 billion... so a third....would be around 3 billion? I am horrible at math.....but its for sure billions of people, that is a LOT!!!
And so now we understand why Jesus said:
[smear:#a80771]" 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved". Matthew 24:21,22[/smear:#310857:0]
We heard about the demons 'like' locust in the first woe, but now its horses, but these are not normal horses, I can only say sadly as I really like normal horses), these are demonic horses. [smear:#597f0f] 17 "And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths, 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound." Revelation 9:17-19[/smear:#8b470b:0]
So it seems like people are going to burn to death ( a terrible way to die) and/or be suffocated and asphyxiated ....also what to me seems like a most unpleasant way to die....of course the really terrible thing is they are not saved....that is heart breaking.
In fact the way these horses kill reminds one a bit of the 2 witnesses:
[smear:#e6192e]"5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed". Revelation 11:5[/smear:#e6d419:0] Also:
[smear:#dae619]6"Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup". Psalm 11:6[/smear:#e61926:0]
But apparently not only do their mouths cause death, but their tails also which are like snakes
Now we come to chapter 10 of Revelation, which almost seems like an interlude of some kind, and yet also seems very dramatic. I won't get thru all of Ch 10 today....
( I am still sleep deprived, I actually opened up my computer to start at about 8 this morning, and only woke up....feel asleep so fast, I did not know it....Leonard came back home from driving children to school etc. so woke me up....I haven't had days of falling asleep like that in a looong time)!
Anyway lets look at verse one of Ch 10
[smear:#13293c]1 "Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire". Revelation 10:1[/smear:#19e651:0]
I have to tell you, the first thing I thought when reading this description was: How cool, image being wrapped in a cloud!!! and.... having a rainbow over your head... awesome!!
I think this is to be an encouragement to God's people, the believers during all these judgments....it reminds them that God's kingdom will come!!
To be sure, this is a unique chapter, starting with this unique angel!!
First of all we are told this angel is mighty ( strong). Also we are told he is 'another' angel ( I point that out, because some commentators, think this angel.... is Jesus, but this verse says he is another angel).
Furthermore, since this angel comes to earth, if it were Jesus, he would be coming to touch earth before he began His 1,000 year reign!! When we are rapture Jesus does not come down and place His feet on earth, we meet Him in the sky.
The fact that this is an extremely glorious angel, is not unusual, satan/Lucifer had that kind of splendor also.
As we see in Ezekiel:
[smear:#5b076e]“12...."You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering.....
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor." Ezekiel 28,12,13,17[/smear:#e7d408:0]
The cloud and legs like pillars of fires reminds us of Exodus, and how the cloud and pillar of fire gave protection, guidance...so that he represents judgment, yes, but also God's promise of His kingdom.
Verse 2 says this about the angel:
[smear:#103345]2 He had a little scroll open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the land," Revelation 10:2[/smear:#329412:0]
He is holding a scroll in his hand and we might ask, what is written in it? The title deed to the earth, which God is going to take back.
This angel puts his foot on the sea and earth.....as a demonstration God is 'putting His foot down'!!! Enough is enough!!
Yep and think about how huge this angel is going to be too! (to have one foot on the sea and another on the earth... I seriously doubt if it's talking about having one foot on the seashore and another in the shallow water! The chapters are all about amazing miracles. Good job! About falling asleep....I've been doing it for months now and hate it!!!!
Today more about Revelation chapter 10:
[smear:#4fe619]3 and called out with a loud voice, like a lion roaring. When he called out, the seven thunders sounded. 4 And when the seven thunders had sounded, I was about to write, but I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down.” Revelation 10:3,4[/smear:#d419e6:0]
Is this the only place we hear about a loud voice....even in the OT like:
[smear:#e61978]8 "The lion has roared; who will not fear? The Lord God has spoken; who can but prophesy?” Amos 3:8[/smear:#20982d:0] [smear:#e68719] 16 "The Lord roars from Zion, and utters his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth quake". Joel 3:16[/smear:#013354:0]
The roar demonstrates God’s ferociousness in judgment.
So this will get the proper attention and the thunders are often associated with God's judgment ( as in this judgment against the Philistines:
[smear:#e67f19]10 "As Samuel was offering up the burnt offering, the Philistines drew near to attack Israel. But the Lord thundered with a mighty sound that day against the Philistines and threw them into confusion, and they were defeated before Israel". I Samuel 7:10 [/smear:#a319e6:0]
It seems that what is said is of great importance, too terrifying and of Divine privacy, so should not be written down, like everything else John has been writing down. Perhaps because the end was not near at the time of John ? Later on God does say to John:
[smear:#8c8016]10 "And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near". Revelation 22:10[/smear:#8219e6:0]
I don't know if what they said were ever recorded tho, when God said not to seal up the words. But it is not the first time God has said "don't write it and connected it to the end times:
[smear:#8f19e6]“...Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end". Daniel 12:9[/smear:#78c90e:0]
On the other hand, there are some ( or many many) things God does not let us know, perhaps John was the only one who knows what was said, and that is OK God is sovereign, if He chooses not to tell us certain things, then I am good with that.
I am in agreement with Moses when he said:
[smear:#9d19e6]"29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29[/smear:#e61954:0]
Something similar happened to Paul:
[smear:#324d54]"4 and he ( Paul speaking of himself) heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter". 2 Corinthians 12:4[/smear:#e619d7:0]
We can be sure there is a good reason, and we need to honor, respect and trust our God's wisdom and reasons for not telling us, we are His Children He is God. Perhaps, that is one of the points this makes.
Good! Regarding what God told Daniel. That particular prophecy has been shown to be true over and over again. Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end". Daniel 12:9. We are living in the "time of the end" and since about the 1970's when Hal Lindsey released his book the Late Great Planet Earth, more and more of God's prophecy about the rapture, Tribulation, Second Coming, and Millennial Kingdom have been understood. Our understanding of these things has become more clear and we have understood them better as time has gone by. That to me is yet another indicator that the time is at hand!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Feb 26, 2020 12:24:13 GMT -5
Now the angel gives an oath or pledge like in a court of law:
[smear:#25be1b]5 "And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven 6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, 7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. 8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, “Go, take the scroll that is open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.” 9 So I went to the angel and told him to give me the little scroll. And he said to me, “Take and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey.” 10 And I took the little scroll from the hand of the angel and ate it. It was sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it my stomach was made bitter. 11 And I was told, “You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and languages and kings.”" Revelation 10:5-11[/smear:#0b83c5:0]
We are reminded that God is the Creator of everything ( Heaven, Earth, sea etc.)
The 'wait' that Habakkuk wrote is going to be over:
[smear:#2d19e6]3 For still the vision awaits its appointed time; it hastens to the end—it will not lie. If it seems slow, wait for it; it will surely come; it will not delay."
Habakkuk 2:3[/smear:#36b738:0]
And this angel swears to tell the truth that there will be no more delay ( for those who have wondered why does it seem so long for God to deal with evil).
Tho in general we humans ( well me for sure), are not great at patiently waiting for God's Divine timing but it will come:
[smear:#b819e6]"15 which he ( God) will display at the proper time— he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see". I Timothy 6:15,16[/smear:#42a55c:0]
The 'mystery' refers to things God has not revealed.
Some of the 'mysteries' in scripture are:
[smear:#e66619] 9 "They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience". I Timothy 3:9[/smear:#42589d:0]
[smear:#e619c1]25 "Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages." Romans 16:25[/smear:#9319e6:0]
[smear:#769815]19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel Ephesians 6:19[/smear:#772896:0] [smear:#218e5b] 6 "This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Ephesians 3:6[/smear:#c90a50:0]
These are just a few, there are more.
But now this one is revealed which reminds us of this verse: [smear:#19e65e] “ 7 For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets". Amos 3:7[/smear:#f35f0e:0]
So the last judgments are coming.
And that is why John eating the scroll is both bitter and sweet. Bitter I think that time time for humans to repent and be with the Lord is up but yet sweet, that evil will be soon gone.
In a way, I think all believers have a somewhat similar response when we read God's word ( we are 'eating' it as it were, and it is bitter-sweet)....but in the end, it will become all sweet, I think when God wipes way every tear. [smear:#b819e6] 17 "...........God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” Revelation 7:17[/smear:#18cc7c:0]
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Post by Cindy on Feb 27, 2020 11:29:52 GMT -5
ye
Now the angel gives an oath or pledge like in a court of law:
[smear:#25be1b]5 "And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven 6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, 7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. 8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, “Go, take the scroll that is open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.” 9 So I went to the angel and told him to give me the little scroll. And he said to me, “Take and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey.” 10 And I took the little scroll from the hand of the angel and ate it. It was sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it my stomach was made bitter. 11 And I was told, “You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and languages and kings.”" Revelation 10:5-11[/smear:#0b83c5:0]
We are reminded that God is the Creator of everything ( Heaven, Earth, sea etc.)
The 'wait' that Habakkuk wrote is going to be over:
[smear:#2d19e6]3 For still the vision awaits its appointed time; it hastens to the end—it will not lie. If it seems slow, wait for it; it will surely come; it will not delay."
Habakkuk 2:3[/smear:#36b738:0]
And this angel swears to tell the truth that there will be no more delay ( for those who have wondered why does it seem so long for God to deal with evil).
Tho in general we humans ( well me for sure), are not great at patiently waiting for God's Divine timing but it will come:
[smear:#b819e6]"15 which he ( God) will display at the proper time— he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see". I Timothy 6:15,16[/smear:#42a55c:0]
The 'mystery' refers to things God has not revealed.
Some of the 'mysteries' in scripture are:
[smear:#e66619] 9 "They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience". I Timothy 3:9[/smear:#42589d:0]
[smear:#e619c1]25 "Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages." Romans 16:25[/smear:#9319e6:0]
[smear:#769815]19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel Ephesians 6:19[/smear:#772896:0] [smear:#218e5b] 6 "This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Ephesians 3:6[/smear:#c90a50:0]
These are just a few, there are more.
But now this one is revealed which reminds us of this verse: [smear:#19e65e] “ 7 For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets". Amos 3:7[/smear:#f35f0e:0]
So the last judgments are coming.
And that is why John eating the scroll is both bitter and sweet. Bitter I think that time time for humans to repent and be with the Lord is up but yet sweet, that evil will be soon gone.
In a way, I think all believers have a somewhat similar response when we read God's word ( we are 'eating' it as it were, and it is bitter-sweet)....but in the end, it will become all sweet, I think when God wipes way every tear. [smear:#b819e6] 17 "...........God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” Revelation 7:17[/smear:#18cc7c:0]
Good!
I can see where Habakkuk 2:3 might seem to apply to Revelation 10:6, but I don't think it does; mainly because Habakkuk is talking about the time that Babylon fell to the Medo-Persian kingdom of Cyrus about 539 B.C. But what Revelation 10:6 seems to be referring to when it speaks of the "delay" is the prayer of the Saints who were under the alter at the time: “They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.” (Revelation 6:10–11) However, Habakkuk 2:3: “For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.” although not speaking about the same time period, is saying that when God's appointed time for something to happen comes, then it will happen and nothing can stop it. So in that way you could say it applies.
The different versions also have interpreted the very end of this verse differently over the years. Let me share a few of them:
AV, AV 1873| Re 10:6 that there should be time no longer:
KJV 1900 | Re 10:6 that there should be time no longer:
1901 ASV | Re 10:6 that there shall be delay no longer:
NASB95 | Re 10:6 that there will be delay no longer,
NIV, NET, ESV, LEB | Re 10:6 “There will be no more delay!
Solemnly swearing by God the eternal Creator, the angel declared, "there will be no more delay!" The KJV rendering, "there shall be time no longer" has been mistakenly interpreted as an abolishment of the present time system with its sequence of events. But this is not the thought of the passage, as the NIV translation is accurate. The Bible Knowledge Commentary
The translation of “delay” (Gr chronos) as time is unfortunate (so AV), because it is inaccurate (cf. NASB). There is here no announcement of the end of time and the ushering in of eternity, for that comes over 1000 years later. The Angel is stating, rather, that there will be no more delay in rectifying the wrong government of the earth. Sin has held sway long enough. KJV Bible Commentary
Yet another commentary says it more clearly that this is an announcement that there will be no more delay in the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom. This does seem to be accurate and thus it would be answering “As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”” (Matthew 24:3) and “So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”” (Acts 1:6)
You explained "mystery" well! But I didn't see where you explained which "mystery" God is referring to here? I apologize if I missed it. But in case you didn't explain it, let me just say that the mystery referred to here is again the end of all things as we know them - the end of sin and it's consequences in humanity, the earth, the heavens and all things and the start of life as it was meant to be.
I like that you remind us that God does nothing without first revealing it to His servants. People today may ask however, then why didn't we know about WW1 or WW2? Amos 3:7 was speaking to Israel about Israel and therefore this concerns only Israel. In other words the verse could say: “Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan about Israel to his servants the prophets of Israel.” (Amos 3:7) instead of: “Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) God was not saying that He would reveal every little thing to us or even every big thing to us before it happened. He was speaking to Israel because of His covenant with them.
Here's what one of the commentaries starts to say about this: Major changes in Israel’s history were preceded by revelations from God; He seldom acted without first giving warning through a prophet. Ahijah prophesied the schism in Solomon’s empire (1 Kings 11:29–39; fulfilled in 1 Kings 12:15–20). An anonymous prophet forecast Josiah’s reform (1 Kings 13:1–2; fulfilled in 2 Kings 23:15–20). Ahijah predicted the death of Abijah and the end of the dynasty of Jeroboam I (1 Kings 14:1–16; fulfilled in 1 Kings 14:17–18; 15:29). Elijah prophesied the deaths of Ahab and Jezebel, and the extermination of Ahab’s descendants (1 Kings 21:17–24; fulfilled in 1 Kings 22:29–37; 2 Kings 9:30–10:11). Elijah also predicted the death of Ahaziah (2 Kings 1:2–4, 16; fulfilled in 2 Kings 1:17). Elisha forecast Moab’s defeat by Jehoram and Jehoshaphat (2 Kings 3). Elisha repeated Elijah’s prediction of the fall of Ahab’s dynasty (2 Kings 9:7–10). Jeroboam II regained lost Israelite territory in fulfillment of an unrecorded prophecy by Jonah (2 Kings 14:25). The Bible Knowledge Commentary. There's much more but I doubt if anyone want's to see it lol.
It's funny that we had this verse in our sermon this past Sunday. I really like the way MacArthur explains it: “So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.” I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”” (Revelation 10:9–11)
Take it and eat it. This act graphically illustrates taking in God’s Word. John’s physical reactions demonstrate what every believer’s proper response to God’s judgment should be (cf. Eze 3:1)—sweet anticipation of God’s glory & our victory, and at the same time, the bitterness of seeing God’s wrath poured out on those who reject His Son. your stomach bitter. As he truly digests what the seal, trumpet, & bowl judgments hold in store for the sinner, John becomes nauseated. in your mouth it will be sweet as honey. But still God’s final victory & vindication are sweet realities to the believer. The MacArthur study Bible
So I don't forget, I can't remember if you've mentioned Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 19, Psalm 83, and/or Ezekiel 38-39 yet? I would guess that if you did it would have been toward the start as many think these will happen before the Tribulation. (but others think they'll happen at the start of the Trib.) Just checking so that if you didn't mention them, we can deal with them after you finish with Revelation, ok?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Feb 27, 2020 12:08:09 GMT -5
thank you for all the added information. No I did not really get into those verses, just because, some people think that 'maybe'
at least one of them 'might' even happen before the tribulation and before the rapture...
others think they start at the beginning of the tribulation
Since, I am not certain myself I did not want to actually get into that right now.
The only thing I have heard, that I think is true, is that there is nothing that HAS to happen before the rapture
Which 'perhaps'?,
doesn't eliminate one of them happening before the rapture....but is certainly not necessary.
So yeah, later LOL
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fearnot
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Post by fearnot on Feb 27, 2020 13:23:15 GMT -5
We move on to chapter 11 and we are going to move into the last judgments but first some measuring needs to be done of the tribulation temple in Jerusalem. This is kind of a pause between the sixth and the seventh trumpet.....a respite before the last and worst judgments to come.
[smear:#1d9391]1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. Revelation 11:1,2[/smear:#e619c6:0]
The three things John is told to measure are:
(1) the temple of God (2) the altar and 3) those who worship there
It is interesting that the outer court ( which was the court for the Gentiles in the OT) was to be left out of the measuring.
It also reminds us of Daniel 8
[smear:#5e1678]"13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?” 14 And he said to me,“For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.” Daniel 8:13,14[/smear:#e6b419:0]
And even worse:
[smear:#810895]"29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace"? Hebrews 10:29[/smear:#9e0d1f:0]
Also: [smear:#1b4c45] "Your holy people held possession for a little while; our adversaries have trampled down your sanctuary". Isaiah 63:18[/smear:#e619e5:0]
Plus it reminds us when Jesus said this:
[smear:#70e619]"24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled". Luke 21:24[/smear:#8219e6:0]
Now we come to the 2 witnesses:
[smear:#6e251d]"3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” Revelation 11:3[/smear:#1e0f4d:0]
These are two interesting witnesses to be sure, for one thing what they wear, and the exact length of time the will preach the gospel. I'll look into them more tomorrow.
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Post by Cindy on Feb 28, 2020 10:54:56 GMT -5
thank you for all the added information. No I did not really get into those verses, just because, some people think that 'maybe'
at least one of them 'might' even happen before the tribulation and before the rapture...
others think they start at the beginning of the tribulation
Since, I am not certain myself I did not want to actually get into that right now.
The only thing I have heard, that I think is true, is that there is nothing that HAS to happen before the rapture
Which 'perhaps'?,
doesn't eliminate one of them happening before the rapture....but is certainly not necessary.
So yeah, later LOL ok.... which verses are you talking about?.... Most everything we've already discussed is debated as to it's timing and many other things; mainly be people who are still following teachers from the past, such as Matthew Henry. Those teachers fail to understand the prophecies concerning these times because they didn't live close enough to them actually happening as we do. Therefore the prophecies were still closed up by God and people weren't able to understand them.
I've met pastors who have told me that they don't understand the scriptures concerning these things, but when I ask if they've studied it themselves, at first they say yes, but then I find out that their idea of studying the subject is to buy a book written by another teacher that "explains" what God is saying in the prophecies concerning these days. (notice I don't just say Revelation, because Revelation only covers a part of what's going to happen. There's a great deal more in the old testament and as you know in other places in the new testament.) So sadly they've confused learning what the Bible says about something with learning what someone else says it says. That's really scary to me that a pastor doesn't study the Bible itself, but instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to do what He promises to do - to teach us and guide us in His Word - they rely on other fallible human beings. Then because those people were confused, or wrote in a confusing way, or were wrong to begin with, they think it's too hard to understand. Yes, it's nice to have commentaries etc as confirmation that we heard the Lord correctly, but when we rely on them above the Holy Spirit's teaching, that's idolatry.
Did you understand what I said about the verse from Habakkuk?
We move on to chapter 11 and we are going to move into the last judgments but first some measuring needs to be done of the tribulation temple in Jerusalem. This is kind of a pause between the sixth and the seventh trumpet.....a respite before the last and worst judgments to come.
[smear:#1d9391]1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. Revelation 11:1,2[/smear:#e619c6:0]
The three things John is told to measure are:
(1) the temple of God (2) the altar and 3) those who worship there
It is interesting that the outer court ( which was the court for the Gentiles in the OT) was to be left out of the measuring.
It also reminds us of Daniel 8
[smear:#5e1678]"13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?” 14 And he said to me,“For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.” Daniel 8:13,14[/smear:#e6b419:0]
And even worse:
[smear:#810895]"29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace"? Hebrews 10:29[/smear:#9e0d1f:0]
Also: [smear:#1b4c45] "Your holy people held possession for a little while; our adversaries have trampled down your sanctuary". Isaiah 63:18[/smear:#e619e5:0]
Plus it reminds us when Jesus said this:
[smear:#70e619]"24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled". Luke 21:24[/smear:#8219e6:0]
Now we come to the 2 witnesses:
[smear:#6e251d]"3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” Revelation 11:3[/smear:#1e0f4d:0]
These are two interesting witnesses to be sure, for one thing what they wear, and the exact length of time the will preach the gospel. I'll look into them more tomorrow.
Good!
“They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) It amazes me when I reflect on how Gentiles have been trampling on Jerusalem all these years and are doing so even today! I had something in my notes on this verse you might find interesting: The ‘times of the Gentiles’ are rapidly coming to a close. Jesus said the final days of this time period would be marked by the liberation of Jerusalem from Gentile control. That glorious event took place on June 7, 1967 when the Jews reconquered the city of Jerusalem for the first time in 1,897 years. The Church may not have understood the significance of this event, but the Orthodox Jews certainly did. Rabbi Shlomo Goren, the Chief Rabbi of the Israeli Army in 1967, rushed to the Wailing Wall, blew a shofar, & solemnly proclaimed "the beginning of the Messianic Age!" Jerusalem was freed 49 years ago. This generation will see the rapture! www.raptureready.com/2012/01/16/the-gentiles-in-prophecy-spent-glory-or-future-empire-by-dr-david-r-reagan/ This had to have been written in 2016.
You pointed out that he wasn't told to measure the outer court, the court of the gentiles, but didn't indicate why that was. For one thing, it shows God's rejection of the unbelieving Gentiles that have oppressed His people.
Also, we should ask why God wants him to measure the temple? Well, what things do we generally measure? Usually it's something that belongs to us, or in the case of a construction worker, something they're making. But even then, in a way it belongs to them since they are making it. The temple belongs to God and He has told us that numerous times throughout the old and new testament. It's ironic though, that usually when we think of the temple, we think of it as belonging to the Jews or to "Israel". I imagine they fall into that kind of thinking too, but it's false and that thought needs to be thrown out and we should remind ourselves that the one it really belongs to is God Himself, which is why He is measuring it.
The fact that it belongs to God makes the last part of verse two more important: “But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.” (Revelation 11:2) These Gentiles are going to be trampling something belonging to the God who created them and everything they see. How insane does someone have to be to do something like that??? Like most everything concerning these times, the "when" of this is debated. But most now believe that this is speaking of the last 3 and a half years of the Tribulation when the AntiChrist will have put his idol in the temple and will be trampling all over the temple and Jerusalem. This makes sense because the next verse brings up the two witnesses who will be prophesying to the people and letting them know that Jesus is their Messiah and that they desperately need to turn to Him and be saved. They will let the people know how short their time is. I'll stop here so you can continue to explain who these witnesses are, what they'll do and how they'll handle things, etc.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Feb 28, 2020 11:15:22 GMT -5
Well I was refering to the verses you mentioned when you wrote:
"I can't remember if you've mentioned Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 19, Psalm 83, and/or Ezekiel 38-39 yet"?
And yes, I was thinking of it in the way you wrote:
"although not speaking about the same time period, is saying that when God's appointed time for something to happen comes, then it will happen and nothing can stop it. So in that way you could say it applies.although not speaking about the same time period, is saying that when God's appointed time for something to happen comes, then it will happen and nothing can stop it. So in that way you could say it applies."
But also as you said ( and I was thinking):
"there will be no more delay in rectifying the wrong government of the earth. Sin has held sway long enough..... and the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom"
Oh and I really liked the way you said this about the temple being measured:
"it really belongs to is God Himself, which is why He is measuring it."
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fearnot
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Post by fearnot on Feb 28, 2020 12:02:04 GMT -5
The two witnesses could take another day or two.... but in any case here is today's looking at them:
3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed". Revelation 11:3-5
The witnesses speak God's word and judgments. And speaking of judgment it reminds us of these verses:
[smear:#0c3743] 30 “If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness". Numbers 35:30[/smear:#e61933:1]
[smear:#e61946]6 "On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness". Deuteronomy 17:6[/smear:#4119e6:1]
One witness's evidence was not sufficient to put a murderer to death....at least 2 was needed. They will be proclaiming the gospel and that is a reminder of what Jesus said:
[smear:#7c4d95]"this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14[/smear:#ddcb0c:0]
They will probably be also warning about the 7 bowl judgments to come, the anti-Christ, his demons, Hell etc.
Their clothes ( sackcloth) indicates the sorrow they feel. As to who they are verse 4 says they are:
[smear:#26e619]"the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth"[/smear:#e6197d:0] Which may come in part from:
[smear:#e65e19]1 And the angel who talked with me came again and woke me, like a man who is awakened out of his sleep. 2 And he said to me, “What do you see?” I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold, with a bowl on the top of it, and seven lamps on it, with seven lips on each of the lamps that are on the top of it. 3 And there are two olive trees by it,..." Zechariah 4:1-3[/smear:#191ae6:0]
They are bringing to light that God is going to keep His promise to bring restoration and salvation to Israel.
The Bible does not say who they are, but I lean towards MacArthur's saying that Elijah and Moses are two potentially good candidates.
They both preformed many miracles in the past and these two witnesses can also [smear:#88e619] "they have power to shut the sky, in order that it might not rain. They can turn water into blood. They can smite the earth with every plague as often as the desire". Revelation 11:6[/smear:#e63919:0]
They both left the earth is odd and unusual ways.
I will come back to this tomorrow.
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fearnot
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Post by fearnot on Feb 29, 2020 12:00:26 GMT -5
Now a bit more about these two witnesses and what they can do etc. [smear:#69900c] " 5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire". Revelation 11:5,6[/smear:#e61964:0]
Not surprising that many people will want to harm ( or kill) them, Not to mention all the demon hordes roaming about... but... that is not going to happen ( they cannot be killed), until the allotted time God has decreed is up. God gives them power to incinerate people who try to kill them because he wants their preaching to continue.
I am thinking they will be hated as bigoted, mean spirited, evil, ignorant etc. because they speak of judgment, and worse of God's anger, and their need to repent of their sin etc. This will be intolerable for so many, however, some will repent and many Jews will.
I can't help but think of what is happening with many Christian leaders already today, like Franklin Graham's being canceled in England, and Scotland etc. But all over the world Christians are being killed, so it will be so much worse then!
So these two witnesses will manifest miraculous powers that will be on a par with, or even superior to the anti-Christ and his demons.
The fact they can cause it not to rain for 3 1/2 years is reminiscent of Elijah who prayed and it did not rain for 3 1/2 years. That will not endear them to the unbelievers.
[smear:#176dab] 1 "Now Elijah the Tishbite, of Tishbe in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, before whom I stand, there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word.” I Kings 17:1[/smear:#7c1f03:0]
Furthermore they can smite the earth with all kinds of plagues as often as they choose. And like Moses did they can turn water into blood....
[smear:#17559c]19 And the Lord said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt, over their rivers, their canals, and their ponds, and all their pools of water, so that they may become blood, and there shall be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, even in vessels of wood and in vessels of stone." Exodus 7:19[/smear:#e6192b:0] Talk about an environmentalist's nightmare!!!
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fearnot
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Post by fearnot on Mar 1, 2020 13:01:38 GMT -5
As I mentioned previously, the 2 witnesses could not be killed until the allotted time was finished..... but then: [smear:#339539] 7 "And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified". Revelation 11:7,8[/smear:#c50882:0]
So who is the 'beast' from the bottomless pit and kills them? This would be the antiChrist ( the beast is always used for the anti-Christ .....and his system.
The great city is Jerusalem ( Sodom and Egypt were wicked places filled with all manner of sins.
They are not buried, they are left in the street to rot.....
Why????
The next verses tell us:
[smear:#a1e619]"9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 11:9,10[/smear:#410a57:0]
A sort of interesting side note, especially for those who bring up what a looooong time has passed and nothing has changed.... note :
The verse tells us that peoples of 'nations' are going to gaze on their rotting bodies this pretty much indicates it would need the technology we have today for this to happen...
The hatred and glee of the witnesses death, is shown by the parties, joy, making merry, and exchanging of gifts, as they watch these two witnesses rot.
To not bury a body to the Jews was a terrible insult, and was repugnant to them ( another reason it was done of course)
Even if a man deserved death God said he was to be buried.
[smear:#7a260e]22 “And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day,... Deuteronomy 21:22,23[/smear:#0c1249:0]
You would think even a one time view of the witnesses bodies at their deaths would be sufficient, but instead it gives the appearances of continually viewing over the 3 1/2 days. Perhaps another reason is to take some kind of weird pleasure in the evil strength of the anti-Christ?
But will it last? God willing we will see tomorrow.
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fearnot
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Post by fearnot on Mar 2, 2020 12:08:38 GMT -5
Yesterday, I left off with the whole world of unconverted people partying, because the 2 witnesses that confronted them concerning their sins ( which they believed were their 'rights') were finally dead!!!
What is God's word about the wicked rejoicing?
[smear:#e61999]"5 that the exulting of the wicked is short, and the joy of the godless but for a moment? 6 Though his height mount up to the heavens, and his head reach to the clouds, 7 he will perish forever like his own dung; Job 20:5-7[/smear:#17095e:0]
Well this party will last 3 1/2 days, which kind of fits the description of 'short and for the moment' I think.
But what happens then puts tremendous fear in the party people: [smear:#e67719] 11 "But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." Revelation 11:11,12 [/smear:#0a8c99:0]
The 2 witnesses are brought back to life and the unconverted are in great fear ( not just fear, which is bad enough, but this is great fear)!
It reminds us of
[smear:#19e635]"......the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt away before you." Joshua 2:9[/smear:#9319e6:0]
And then.... They are raptured while all the people watch. They have barely time to digest that ( an hour) when: [smear:#592784] 13 "And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven". Revelation11:13[/smear:#7d9111:0]
However, this great fear caused by these events, may bring many Jews to salvation. This massive earthquake killing 7,000, the resurrection and rapture of the witnesses, may wake up many of the Jews because the next verse says this:
[smear:#19e65e]"Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. Revelation 11:13[/smear:#e67a19:0]
This may be where this prophecy comes true:
[smear:#19e62d]25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved Romans 11:25,26[/smear:#9319e6:0]
And then we read:
[smear:#5c7517]14 "The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come". Revelation 11:14[/smear:#0c4e50:0] So I will look at that tomorrow.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 3, 2020 10:26:01 GMT -5
As we read yesterday:
[smear:#ad0822]14 "The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come". Revelation 11:14[/smear:#3e19e6:1]
Remember the 3 woes are the the last 3 of the trumpets. They target humanity rather than the environment.
So now [smear:#e65619] 15 "Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign". Revelation 11:15-17[/smear:#321383:0]
I think one could say that even tho we have 'nations', in a spiritual sense there has always been just 2 kingdom's: satan's ( the world without God) and God's kingdom.
But one day soon there will just be God's kingdom.
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Post by Cindy on Mar 3, 2020 10:52:42 GMT -5
Well I was refering to the verses you mentioned when you wrote:
"I can't remember if you've mentioned Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 19, Psalm 83, and/or Ezekiel 38-39 yet"?
And yes, I was thinking of it in the way you wrote:
"although not speaking about the same time period, is saying that when God's appointed time for something to happen comes, then it will happen and nothing can stop it. So in that way you could say it applies.although not speaking about the same time period, is saying that when God's appointed time for something to happen comes, then it will happen and nothing can stop it. So in that way you could say it applies."
But also as you said ( and I was thinking):
"there will be no more delay in rectifying the wrong government of the earth. Sin has held sway long enough..... and the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom"
Oh and I really liked the way you said this about the temple being measured:
"it really belongs to is God Himself, which is why He is measuring it."
Ok, gotcha! lol Sorry I didn't make it in yesterday. I posted why in the chat thread.
The two witnesses could take another day or two.... but in any case here is today's looking at them:
3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed". Revelation 11:3-5
The witnesses speak God's word and judgments. And speaking of judgment it reminds us of these verses:
[smear:#0c3743] 30 “If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness". Numbers 35:30[/smear:#e61933:1]
[smear:#e61946]6 "On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness". Deuteronomy 17:6[/smear:#4119e6:1]
One witness's evidence was not sufficient to put a murderer to death....at least 2 was needed. They will be proclaiming the gospel and that is a reminder of what Jesus said:
[smear:#7c4d95]"this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14[/smear:#ddcb0c:0]
They will probably be also warning about the 7 bowl judgments to come, the anti-Christ, his demons, Hell etc.
Their clothes ( sackcloth) indicates the sorrow they feel. As to who they are verse 4 says they are:
[smear:#26e619]"the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth"[/smear:#e6197d:0] Which may come in part from:
[smear:#e65e19]1 And the angel who talked with me came again and woke me, like a man who is awakened out of his sleep. 2 And he said to me, “What do you see?” I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold, with a bowl on the top of it, and seven lamps on it, with seven lips on each of the lamps that are on the top of it. 3 And there are two olive trees by it,..." Zechariah 4:1-3[/smear:#191ae6:0]
They are bringing to light that God is going to keep His promise to bring restoration and salvation to Israel.
The Bible does not say who they are, but I lean towards MacArthur's saying that Elijah and Moses are two potentially good candidates.
They both preformed many miracles in the past and these two witnesses can also [smear:#88e619] "they have power to shut the sky, in order that it might not rain. They can turn water into blood. They can smite the earth with every plague as often as the desire". Revelation 11:6[/smear:#e63919:0]
They both left the earth is odd and unusual ways.
I will come back to this tomorrow.
Good! But these two men are prophets more then anything else, which is why they mostly preach judgement as well as the gospel. If we look back at the OT prophets, that's what they did as well. Most of their messages were telling the people how sinful they were and telling them exactly what their numerous sins were; then they told them how God felt about those sins, and what He would do to them because of their sins if they didn't repent. Finally, they would give a short account of how God loved them and longed for them to repent so He could bless them. That's basically what these two will do as well.
Now a bit more about these two witnesses and what they can do etc. [smear:#69900c] " 5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire". Revelation 11:5,6[/smear:#e61964:0]
Not surprising that many people will want to harm ( or kill) them, Not to mention all the demon hordes roaming about... but... that is not going to happen ( they cannot be killed), until the allotted time God has decreed is up. God gives them power to incinerate people who try to kill them because he wants their preaching to continue.
I am thinking they will be hated as bigoted, mean spirited, evil, ignorant etc. because they speak of judgment, and worse of God's anger, and their need to repent of their sin etc. This will be intolerable for so many, however, some will repent and many Jews will.
I can't help but think of what is happening with many Christian leaders already today, like Franklin Graham's being canceled in England, and Scotland etc. But all over the world Christians are being killed, so it will be so much worse then!
So these two witnesses will manifest miraculous powers that will be on a par with, or even superior to the anti-Christ and his demons.
The fact they can cause it not to rain for 3 1/2 years is reminiscent of Elijah who prayed and it did not rain for 3 1/2 years. That will not endear them to the unbelievers.
[smear:#176dab] 1 "Now Elijah the Tishbite, of Tishbe in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, before whom I stand, there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word.” I Kings 17:1[/smear:#7c1f03:0]
Furthermore they can smite the earth with all kinds of plagues as often as they choose. And like Moses did they can turn water into blood....
[smear:#17559c]19 And the Lord said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt, over their rivers, their canals, and their ponds, and all their pools of water, so that they may become blood, and there shall be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, even in vessels of wood and in vessels of stone." Exodus 7:19[/smear:#e6192b:0] Talk about an environmentalist's nightmare!!!
Well done! You said that they couldn't be killed until their allotted time is up because God won't allow that to happen. What's amazing is that this is also true for each one of us. Nothing can harm us and we cannot be killed and cannot die until our allotted time is up. We are told: “your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” (Psalm 139:16) God has planned many things for us to do during our life, and He knows exactly when we will be born and when this current body will die - right down to the nanosecond. Nothing and no one can change those dates and times or the way they will come about, because nothing and no one is more powerful then God. For we're also told: “Man’s days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed.” (Job 14:5) I can't remember for sure at the moment, but it seems to me that one of the apostles said something along these lines as well.... but my brain isn't cooperating with me now lol. sorry!
As I mentioned previously, the 2 witnesses could not be killed until the allotted time was finished..... but then: [smear:#339539] 7 "And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified". Revelation 11:7,8[/smear:#c50882:0]
So who is the 'beast' from the bottomless pit and kills them? This would be the antiChrist ( the beast is always used for the anti-Christ .....and his system.
The great city is Jerusalem ( Sodom and Egypt were wicked places filled with all manner of sins.
They are not buried, they are left in the street to rot.....
Why????
The next verses tell us:
[smear:#a1e619]"9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 11:9,10[/smear:#410a57:0]
A sort of interesting side note, especially for those who bring up what a looooong time has passed and nothing has changed.... note :
The verse tells us that peoples of 'nations' are going to gaze on their rotting bodies this pretty much indicates it would need the technology we have today for this to happen...
The hatred and glee of the witnesses death, is shown by the parties, joy, making merry, and exchanging of gifts, as they watch these two witnesses rot.
To not bury a body to the Jews was a terrible insult, and was repugnant to them ( another reason it was done of course)
Even if a man deserved death God said he was to be buried.
[smear:#7a260e]22 “And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day,... Deuteronomy 21:22,23[/smear:#0c1249:0]
You would think even a one time view of the witnesses bodies at their deaths would be sufficient, but instead it gives the appearances of continually viewing over the 3 1/2 days. Perhaps another reason is to take some kind of weird pleasure in the evil strength of the anti-Christ?
But will it last? God willing we will see tomorrow.
Whenever I read that part of Revelation, it makes me think of how Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days. Also I realized that since the whole world hates the witnesses, they must be able to affect things all over the world and not just in Jerusalem or Israel. Otherwise I don't see why the rest of the world would hate them so much....
Yesterday, I left off with the whole world of unconverted people partying, because the 2 witnesses that confronted them concerning their sins ( which they believed were their 'rights') were finally dead!!!
What is God's word about the wicked rejoicing?
[smear:#e61999]"5 that the exulting of the wicked is short, and the joy of the godless but for a moment? 6 Though his height mount up to the heavens, and his head reach to the clouds, 7 he will perish forever like his own dung; Job 20:5-7[/smear:#17095e:0]
Well this party will last 3 1/2 days, which kind of fits the description of 'short and for the moment' I think.
But what happens then puts tremendous fear in the party people: [smear:#e67719] 11 "But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." Revelation 11:11,12 [/smear:#0a8c99:0]
The 2 witnesses are brought back to life and the unconverted are in great fear ( not just fear, which is bad enough, but this is great fear)!
It reminds us of
[smear:#19e635]"......the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt away before you." Joshua 2:9[/smear:#9319e6:0]
And then.... They are raptured while all the people watch. They have barely time to digest that ( an hour) when: [smear:#592784] 13 "And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven". Revelation11:13[/smear:#7d9111:0]
However, this great fear caused by these events, may bring many Jews to salvation. This massive earthquake killing 7,000, the resurrection and rapture of the witnesses, may wake up many of the Jews because the next verse says this:
[smear:#19e65e]"Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. Revelation 11:13[/smear:#e67a19:0]
This may be where this prophecy comes true:
[smear:#19e62d]25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved Romans 11:25,26[/smear:#9319e6:0]
And then we read:
[smear:#5c7517]14 "The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come". Revelation 11:14[/smear:#0c4e50:0] So I will look at that tomorrow.
Well done! I'm enjoying reading this!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 3, 2020 11:22:28 GMT -5
I was working on today's study and then you posted LOLOL which put my working post waaaaay above so you might not find it!!!!!!
Thank you for the encouragement. I am going to repost what I wrote so far but today is the once a month shopping day so hopefully I can add to what wee bit I have done so far but I will have to put everything away, watch the kids this afternoon etc etc. sooooooo I will make an effort to get back to it today but I am not sure because I am not feeling great ( sneezing and sneezing grrrrrr).
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 3, 2020 11:24:17 GMT -5
As we read yesterday:
[smear:#ad0822]14 "The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come". Revelation 11:14[/smear:#3e19e6:1]
Remember the 3 woes are the the last 3 of the trumpets. They target humanity rather than the environment.
So now [smear:#e65619] 15 "Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign". Revelation 11:15-17[/smear:#321383:0]
I think one could say that even tho we have 'nations', in a spiritual sense, there has always been... just 2 kingdom's: satan's ( the world without God) and God's kingdom.
But one day soon there will just be God's kingdom.
[smear:#c44a16]"Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". Matthew 6:10[/smear:#1943e6:0] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am just going to continue where I left off yesterday.....today.
Jumping ahead a bit, I will mention in this 7th trumpet are the 7 bowls....the final wrath and judgments being poured out.
It reminds us of this verse in Joel:
[smear:#037813]"Blow a trumpet in Zion; sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near,..." Joel 2:1[/smear:#08627e:0]
And this also:
[smear:#6f0f91]"27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. 28 For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations". Psalm 22:27.28[/smear:#1b9847:0]
This too [smear:#88e619] "Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore." Isaiah 9:7[/smear:#e61940:0]
and many others
But ......before Jesus reigns ( the true and rightful king) the 7 bowls will be poured out.
However the elders in Heaven fall down and worship and praise God!
They say:
[smear:#b011ba]17 “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. 18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” Revelation 11:17,18[/smear:#19e67a:0]
For sure the nations raged ( as they do now), in opposition to God. It's not like the people are misunderstanding what is going on in fact they understood way back in chapter 6
[smear:#19e656]" 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” Revelation 6:15-17[/smear:#a03208:0]
Note, it was not just the brilliant intellectuals, or the rich, or powerful who understood, it says everyone!!
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Post by Cindy on Mar 4, 2020 10:23:36 GMT -5
I was working on today's study and then you posted LOLOL which put my working post waaaaay above so you might not find it!!!!!!
Thank you for the encouragement. I am going to repost what I wrote so far but today is the once a month shopping day so hopefully I can add to what wee bit I have done so far but I will have to put everything away, watch the kids this afternoon etc etc. sooooooo I will make an effort to get back to it today but I am not sure because I am not feeling great ( sneezing and sneezing grrrrrr). Sorry to hear you're not feeling well hon. Hope you're feeling better today!
As we read yesterday:
[smear:#ad0822]14 "The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come". Revelation 11:14[/smear:#3e19e6:1]
Remember the 3 woes are the the last 3 of the trumpets. They target humanity rather than the environment.
So now [smear:#e65619] 15 "Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign". Revelation 11:15-17[/smear:#321383:0]
I think one could say that even tho we have 'nations', in a spiritual sense, there has always been... just 2 kingdom's: satan's ( the world without God) and God's kingdom.
But one day soon there will just be God's kingdom.
[smear:#c44a16]"Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". Matthew 6:10[/smear:#1943e6:0] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am just going to continue where I left off yesterday.....today.
Jumping ahead a bit, I will mention in this 7th trumpet are the 7 bowls....the final wrath and judgments being poured out.
It reminds us of this verse in Joel:
[smear:#037813]"Blow a trumpet in Zion; sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near,..." Joel 2:1[/smear:#08627e:0]
And this also:
[smear:#6f0f91]"27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. 28 For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations". Psalm 22:27.28[/smear:#1b9847:0]
This too [smear:#88e619] "Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore." Isaiah 9:7[/smear:#e61940:0]
and many others
But ......before Jesus reigns ( the true and rightful king) the 7 bowls will be poured out.
However the elders in Heaven fall down and worship and praise God!
They say:
[smear:#b011ba]17 “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. 18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” Revelation 11:17,18[/smear:#19e67a:0]
For sure the nations raged ( as they do now), in opposition to God. It's not like the people are misunderstanding what is going on in fact they understood way back in chapter 6
[smear:#19e656]" 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” Revelation 6:15-17[/smear:#a03208:0]
Note, it was not just the brilliant intellectuals, or the rich, or powerful who understood, it says everyone!!
Good! I wanted to mention something I've been thinking about. The last verses you quoted mention slaves as do a number of others that concern the Tribulation. I used to think it was talking about the people who have been made slaves even today, but I'm not so sure about that any more. I'm leaning toward thinking that slavery is going to become common place again. Perhaps not until the last half of the Trib but at least by then. Perhaps the AntiChrist will make slaves of the Christian's and Jew's they arrest besides just killing them outright. I don't know how it will happen, but it seems to me that slaves are mentioned often enough that there will be more of them then there are even now.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 4, 2020 11:48:25 GMT -5
Wow, I never thought of that....about Jews and Christians being made slaves during the tribulation....but I can see your point!!!
Oh I hope you noticed I combined 2 days of study into ONE post....so it may look like I missed a day but really had just one super short day, and I just added the next day to it.
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Post by Cindy on Mar 5, 2020 11:03:42 GMT -5
yes, I saw that. Are you not doing one for today? I have to leave now as I need to work on our bills. Be back tomorrow, God willing. Love you!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 5, 2020 11:38:25 GMT -5
But now, before we go thru the 7 bowls of God's judgment...
Chapter 12
We are going back in time, and in a sense, we will be seeing all of what is going on from the anti-Christ's perspective.
Remember, that even tho there are many nations etc. there is really only one king of the unconverted humans and that is satan. We know he is 'king' ....................( until God ends his rule forever!!!) by verses such as:
[smear:#b5801b]"31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. John 12:31[/smear:#150b30:0]
[smear:#4f3260]"...............the ruler of this world is judged" John 16:11[/smear:#e61943:0]
But since the Garden of Eden, Satan got the title deed of earth from Adam ( who should have kept it but by sinning, gave it over to the devil).... and clearly, Satan is not going to hand it back to Jesus without fighting to keep it tooth and nail! Waring, lying and killing is what he does..... and we see it in the first verses of chapter 12 [smear:#128c54] 1 "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days". Revelation 12:1-6[/smear:#d419e6:0]
When Satan fell he had convinced 1/3 of God's angels to follow him, in his war against God, and in the garden of Eden, he also dragged humanity into his war. To join with the devil is to be on the losing side and yet, that is what so many people choose.
We are told that this is a sign, a symbolic picture of what has happened and will happen. We see the progression of Satan's rebellion, including his leading a rebellious mutiny against God, and then his foul deed in the garden for starts.
Just because something is a symbol is not to say, it does not portray something in reality. the woman is a symbol of Israel.
well I certainly can't be dogmatic about her being clothed with the sun but we do read of God's 'protection'
[smear:#e6c119]For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord bestows favor and honor. Psalm 84:11[/smear:#642b80:0]
God has never forgotten Israel, and she remains a main 'character' in the end times. God will redeem her, and Satan has always wanted to destroy her. In fact the way this woman is clothed also gives us the hint she is Israel as we read about Joseph's dream ( symbolic of Israel) [smear:#e61978] "Behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” Genesis 37:9[/smear:#e6bc19:0]
Also:
[smear:#e6e119]35 Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David. 36 His offspring shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me. 37 Like the moon it shall be established forever, a faithful witness in the skies.” Psalm 89:35-37[/smear:#20a484:0]
The 12 stars are like the 12 tribes of Israel.
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Post by Cindy on Mar 6, 2020 10:12:51 GMT -5
But now, before we go thru the 7 bowls of God's judgment...
Chapter 12
We are going back in time, and in a sense, we will be seeing all of what is going on from the anti-Christ's perspective.
Remember, that even tho there are many nations etc. there is really only one king of the unconverted humans and that is satan. We know he is 'king' ....................( until God ends his rule forever!!!) by verses such as:
[smear:#b5801b]"31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. John 12:31[/smear:#150b30:0]
[smear:#4f3260]"...............the ruler of this world is judged" John 16:11[/smear:#e61943:0]
But since the Garden of Eden, Satan got the title deed of earth from Adam ( who should have kept it but by sinning, gave it over to the devil).... and clearly, Satan is not going to hand it back to Jesus without fighting to keep it tooth and nail! Waring, lying and killing is what he does..... and we see it in the first verses of chapter 12 [smear:#128c54] 1 "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days". Revelation 12:1-6[/smear:#d419e6:0]
When Satan fell he had convinced 1/3 of God's angels to follow him, in his war against God, and in the garden of Eden, he also dragged humanity into his war. To join with the devil is to be on the losing side and yet, that is what so many people choose.
We are told that this is a sign, a symbolic picture of what has happened and will happen. We see the progression of Satan's rebellion, including his leading a rebellious mutiny against God, and then his foul deed in the garden for starts.
Just because something is a symbol is not to say, it does not portray something in reality. the woman is a symbol of Israel.
well I certainly can't be dogmatic about her being clothed with the sun but we do read of God's 'protection'
[smear:#e6c119]For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord bestows favor and honor. Psalm 84:11[/smear:#642b80:0]
God has never forgotten Israel, and she remains a main 'character' in the end times. God will redeem her, and Satan has always wanted to destroy her. In fact the way this woman is clothed also gives us the hint she is Israel as we read about Joseph's dream ( symbolic of Israel) [smear:#e61978] "Behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” Genesis 37:9[/smear:#e6bc19:0]
Also:
[smear:#e6e119]35 Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David. 36 His offspring shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me. 37 Like the moon it shall be established forever, a faithful witness in the skies.” Psalm 89:35-37[/smear:#20a484:0]
The 12 stars are like the 12 tribes of Israel.
That's a good explanation of the first verse. The only thing I'd add is that most see the sun as showing Israel's future glory. I'll wait to comment on verse 2 and the other verses until you've had your say.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 6, 2020 11:33:40 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 6, 2020 13:17:04 GMT -5
I already mention the sign in verse one, and how it is symbolic of something real and in verse 3 we read of yet another sign.....but first verse 2 which speaks of a 'woman' which is also a symbol of Israel.
[smear:#286a71]2 "She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems". Revelation 12:2,3[/smear:#982573:0]
The woman is pregnant and about to give birth. It seems she is going to give birth to Jesus. When we remember all of scripture deals with our Lord, and how He will save His people, and that Israel has longed for and agonized for the Messiah, that is what John ( and we see here).
Israel has suffered almost all of her very long existence and one reason is because of Satan...
he did not, and does not, want Jesus to come, nor to establish His kingdom ( and Satan's demise), deliver us from sin, death and the devil.
And we see that the woman ( and the child) has an enemy, a red dragon, ( which reminds us of the serpent in the Garden of Eden).
God speaking to the snake, serpent ( dragon) said:
[smear:#814496]"15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Genesis 3:15[/smear:#e61954:0]
God in His kindness, allows a 'woman' who was the first to bring sin on humanity, to be the one thru whom the Savior will come. An interesting aside for those in the Christian world who tend to shove Israel aside, it is not the 'church' who brought forth Jesus but Israel.
So we see satan ( the enemy) portrayed as a 'dragon'.... he is not a dragon, in reality, but the most powerful 'fallen' angel ( a spiritual being).
However, a dragon does convey a terrifying creature, perhaps in a way, that just saying a fallen angel might not, to some people?
A dragon conjures up a huge vicious, ferocious, fierce, crafty, often fire-breathing, evil, blood thirsty, deadly killing beast.
As to the crowns, kingdoms etc of this dragon, we are reminded of when Satan tried to tempt Jesus, with Satan's ownership of the world ( for a time, and thus the devil's many kingdoms throughout history...which also shows his strength and power)
[smear:#0c8033]"5 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 6 and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.” Luke 4:5-7[/smear:#e65919:0]
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 7, 2020 12:14:50 GMT -5
[smear:#065a68]4 "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne" Revelation12:4,5[/smear:#e619bb:0]
The word 'stars' stand for angels...but sadly these angels decided to follow Lucifer/Satan/the devil and rejected God and are doomed to an eternity in Hell. I suppose one could wonder why God does not give them a 'second' chance ( like humans) concerning these demons sins. Of course, there is one big glaring difference....these angels/demons were in Heaven, they knew God whereas humans do not get to go to Heaven until after they die. So there was absolutely no excuse for the fallen angels....not that there is when humans sin, but God has made a way for humans because of His great love and pity.
I have no idea the exact number of the fallen angels, but I think it is pretty clear it is a LOT!!!
We know there are LOTS of angels when we read this:
[smear:#71184f]".......the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands....." Revelation 5:11[/smear:#1ae619:0]
And it is mentioned here to make the point, it is not just Satan against Israel, but also, all his demon horde.
History shows Satan endless attempts to keep the promised 'child' (the Savior, the redeemer) from being born. He had made every effort from the beginning of the human race to wipe out the line Jesus was to have come from. However, the devil never was able throughout history to annihilate the Jews...nor the line and/or way for Jesus to be born. The devil thought he had finally accomplished his goal when Jesus was crucified and died (physically). Satan cannot kill the woman and he could not kill Jesus ( God the Son) and keep him dead. Israel has not in the past ever been assimilated into other nations, nor can it.
The woman's son was born, and He ( Jesus) is going to rule!! But first, He ascended back into Heaven for a time.
Nevertheless, Satan intends to kill as many humans as possible ( he has been doing that all along, and he will do it during the tribulation...big time!!!)
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 8, 2020 11:03:38 GMT -5
Then we come to verse 6 in Chapter 12 which says this:
[smear:#58800a] 6 ".....and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days." Revelation 12:6[/smear:#dd19e6:0]
So Satan is going to be going after Israel ( and the Jews) during the tribulation, but God is going to hid, protect and provide for her. Note: there is a big time lapse between, the birth and life of the child ( Jesus) and this verse. Just because this verse follows verse 5 etc. does not necessarily mean it happens the very next second, day, week, month, year, decade, century etc etc.
This mass exodus of the Jews is going to happen after the anti-Christ desecrates the Holy of Holies.
[smear:#56650f]15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. " Matthew24:15[/smear:#92143d:0]
God is going to care for them for 3 1/2 years.
It reminds us of: [smear:#19e625] "1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; 3 to grant to those who mourn in Zion— to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he may be glorified. 4 They shall build up the ancient ruins; they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities, the devastations of many generations". Isaiah 61:1-4[/smear:#e619c6:0]
For as Paul asks and answers the question, God has never given up on Israel and the Jews:
[smear:#19e656]"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no mean"! Romans 11:1[/smear:#e67a19:0]
We have all sorts of history to prove Satan's hatred of the Jews.....6 million killed in the Holocaust , Jewis were persecuted during the Crusades, the Inquisition, the pogroms of Russia,etc. etc. And sadly there are 'professing' Christians to this day who want to deny Israel the right to her promised land.
Anti-Semitism ( and also anti-Zionism) is still rampant today! And, as all race hating, Satan pours fuel on the fire.
The United Nations seems to consistently condemn Israel Jews cannot worship on their own temple mount which is bizarre to the max!!
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Post by Cindy on Mar 9, 2020 10:27:28 GMT -5
I already mention the sign in verse one, and how it is symbolic of something real and in verse 3 we read of yet another sign.....but first verse 2 which speaks of a 'woman' which is also a symbol of Israel.
[smear:#286a71]2 "She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems". Revelation 12:2,3[/smear:#982573:0]
The woman is pregnant and about to give birth. It seems she is going to give birth to Jesus. When we remember all of scripture deals with our Lord, and how He will save His people, and that Israel has longed for and agonized for the Messiah, that is what John ( and we see here).
Israel has suffered almost all of her very long existence and one reason is because of Satan...
he did not, and does not, want Jesus to come, nor to establish His kingdom ( and Satan's demise), deliver us from sin, death and the devil.
And we see that the woman ( and the child) has an enemy, a red dragon, ( which reminds us of the serpent in the Garden of Eden).
God speaking to the snake, serpent ( dragon) said:
[smear:#814496]"15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Genesis 3:15[/smear:#e61954:0]
God in His kindness, allows a 'woman' who was the first to bring sin on humanity, to be the one thru whom the Savior will come. An interesting aside for those in the Christian world who tend to shove Israel aside, it is not the 'church' who brought forth Jesus but Israel.
So we see satan ( the enemy) portrayed as a 'dragon'.... he is not a dragon, in reality, but the most powerful 'fallen' angel ( a spiritual being).
However, a dragon does convey a terrifying creature, perhaps in a way, that just saying a fallen angel might not, to some people?
A dragon conjures up a huge vicious, ferocious, fierce, crafty, often fire-breathing, evil, blood thirsty, deadly killing beast.
As to the crowns, kingdoms etc of this dragon, we are reminded of when Satan tried to tempt Jesus, with Satan's ownership of the world ( for a time, and thus the devil's many kingdoms throughout history...which also shows his strength and power)
[smear:#0c8033]"5 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 6 and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.” Luke 4:5-7[/smear:#e65919:0]
Well done!
[smear:#065a68]4 "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne" Revelation12:4,5[/smear:#e619bb:0]
The word 'stars' stand for angels...but sadly these angels decided to follow Lucifer/Satan/the devil and rejected God and are doomed to an eternity in Hell. I suppose one could wonder why God does not give them a 'second' chance ( like humans) concerning these demons sins. Of course, there is one big glaring difference....these angels/demons were in Heaven, they knew God whereas humans do not get to go to Heaven until after they die. So there was absolutely no excuse for the fallen angels....not that there is when humans sin, but God has made a way for humans because of His great love and pity.
I have no idea the exact number of the fallen angels, but I think it is pretty clear it is a LOT!!!
We know there are LOTS of angels when we read this:
[smear:#71184f]".......the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands....." Revelation 5:11[/smear:#1ae619:0]
And it is mentioned here to make the point, it is not just Satan against Israel, but also, all his demon horde.
History shows Satan endless attempts to keep the promised 'child' (the Savior, the redeemer) from being born. He had made every effort from the beginning of the human race to wipe out the line Jesus was to have come from. However, the devil never was able throughout history to annihilate the Jews...nor the line and/or way for Jesus to be born. The devil thought he had finally accomplished his goal when Jesus was crucified and died (physically). Satan cannot kill the woman and he could not kill Jesus ( God the Son) and keep him dead. Israel has not in the past ever been assimilated into other nations, nor can it.
The woman's son was born, and He ( Jesus) is going to rule!! But first, He ascended back into Heaven for a time.
Nevertheless, Satan intends to kill as many humans as possible ( he has been doing that all along, and he will do it during the tribulation...big time!!!)
Then we come to verse 6 in Chapter 12 which says this:
[smear:#58800a] 6 ".....and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days." Revelation 12:6[/smear:#dd19e6:0]
So Satan is going to be going after Israel ( and the Jews) during the tribulation, but God is going to hid, protect and provide for her. Note: there is a big time lapse between, the birth and life of the child ( Jesus) and this verse. Just because this verse follows verse 5 etc. does not necessarily mean it happens the very next second, day, week, month, year, decade, century etc etc.
This mass exodus of the Jews is going to happen after the anti-Christ desecrates the Holy of Holies.
[smear:#56650f]15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. " Matthew24:15[/smear:#92143d:0]
God is going to care for them for 3 1/2 years.
It reminds us of: [smear:#19e625] "1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; 3 to grant to those who mourn in Zion— to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he may be glorified. 4 They shall build up the ancient ruins; they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities, the devastations of many generations". Isaiah 61:1-4[/smear:#e619c6:0]
For as Paul asks and answers the question, God has never given up on Israel and the Jews:
[smear:#19e656]"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no mean"! Romans 11:1[/smear:#e67a19:0]
We have all sorts of history to prove Satan's hatred of the Jews.....6 million killed in the Holocaust , Jewis were persecuted during the Crusades, the Inquisition, the pogroms of Russia,etc. etc. And sadly there are 'professing' Christians to this day who want to deny Israel the right to her promised land.
Anti-Semitism ( and also anti-Zionism) is still rampant today! And, as all race hating, Satan pours fuel on the fire.
The United Nations seems to consistently condemn Israel Jews cannot worship on their own temple mount which is bizarre to the max!!
Well done! Looking forward to read what you have next!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 9, 2020 10:48:03 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy.....I wasn't sure but that I missed something, or got something a bit wrong, so that was encouraging! :)
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,470
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Post by fearnot on Mar 9, 2020 12:13:44 GMT -5
Satan and the 1/3 of the angels that followed him, were cast out of Heaven at the original rebellion, however, the devil still had access to Heaven in order to accuse the believers before God:
[smear:#3fe619]".....for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God". Revelation 12:10[/smear:#380432:0]
But now things have changed because:
[smear:#192ee6]7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
Revelation 12:7,8[/smear:#e619a6:0]
Something we may not often think about or realize, is that to this day, Satan spends most of his time still in Heaven, making accusations! The devil means to slander and accuse falsely, which is his nature as a malignant liar. he is a deceiver and enemy of the whole world.
However, the devil is not in Hell, and he is not the king there..... he has not even been there yet, when God does throw him there he will have the worst punishment , and will be the lowest of the low.
So who is Michael? Well Jude tells us he is an 'archangel'
[smear:#25672c]"But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, ......" Jude 1:9[/smear:#19e6c4:0] He has also been uniquely associated with Israel ( also called the great prince..... I would add great price of angels, since he is an archangel):
[smear:#a1e619]1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1[/smear:#cb46f7:0]
So there has in essence always been a 'war' going on between the angels of Heaven and Satan and his demon horde....but this war will be massive and Satan will lose and be thrown to earth, nevermore to be able to access Heaven.
I suppose one could wonder why did not or does not Jesus or God the Father fight this battle.
To do so would only give the devil some type of honor, that as a created being he does not deserve. God could blink and the devil and his demons would be gone forever!!! The chasm between the Creator and the creature is beyond any comparison!!
Jesus will come and incarcerate Satan for a 1,000 years, ( Satan's 1 st trip to Hell) and after that, it will be the devil's 2nd and final, eternal trip to Hell.
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