fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383 
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Post by fearnot on Jul 6, 2019 15:47:41 GMT -5
Joshua 11: 1-11
Several commentaries I read, mention God kindness to Israel, in that ,both the North and Southern kings did not unite to fight Israel at the beginning.
And these Northern kings had horses and chariots, of which Israel had none.....
plus this was a huge group of people, so much so, they appeared to be like the sand of the sea, their numbers were so big!
It tells us of the various places these kings and peoples came from ( mountains and valleys etc).
They encamped together at the waters of Merom, to fight against Israel, with their horses and chariots. They probably felt pretty confident, because Israel only had foot soldiers, but then men's might is never to be the thing to hang one's hat on. This is often even true with a big strong man and a smaller wirier faster man. The big strong brute, often cannot move fast enough and can lose a fight to the smaller ( but strong man....and if he is one of the Lord's the odds could be even more in favor of the 'little'.
As in this case, because: "And the Lord said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid of them, for tomorrow at this time I will give over all of them, slain, to Israel".
Being encouraged by God, Joshua sets off and surprised them ( perhaps they thought Joshua would be shaking in his sandals somewhere for a long time trying to work up courage or figure out where to flee)?
However, just as God had said, they killed many by the 'surprise' and chased the rest.
Then Joshua turned back, and took Hazor, and killed the king that put together this coalition.
all the spoil of these cities and the livestock, the people of Israel took for their plunder..this kind of makes me think of how the 1st fruits ( be it really fruit, children, or money or whatever) belongs to the Lord.....of course, everything IS the Lord's.....but had Achan only waited and had his mind set on God.
Joshua however did have his mind set on the Lord and did all that God commanded.
However, the war was long. So is my war with sin, and it's important to do what God tells me in scripture.
Another interesting thing is that:
"For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them..."
Then the land had rest ( for a time).
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 7, 2019 9:21:24 GMT -5
Joshua 12
First these verses describes the land and kings defeated by Moses....( 2 on one side of the Jordan)
Sihon king of the Amorites and and Og king of Bashan
I had not realized how big the area was ( or it seems like it).
"Moses the servant of the Lord gave their land for a possession to the Reubenites and the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh".
I am thinking it is always good to remember what the Lord has done in mercies, miracles, provisions, comforts, love etc. in the past as well as in the present.
And then the 31 one kings by Joshua.
This shows the faithfulness of God to his chosen.
I started thinking if each king were instead a sin of mine and I could say the Lord killed them dead what a great joy....to be forever gone.
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Post by Cindy on Jul 8, 2019 9:27:52 GMT -5
Joshua 10: 29-43
This passage is basically a telling of the Southern conquest of Joshua and all Israel.
Almost every verse starts with: "Then Joshua and all Israel with him".
It lists the cities they captured and follows often with: "And he devoted every person in it to destruction that day"
One might ask why?
The answer is: "He left none remaining, but devoted to destruction all that breathed,
just as the Lord God of Israel commanded".
I already mentioned what Pastor John MacArthur said that asking why God commanded the people to be killed, is actually the wrong question.
A better question is why does he allow any of us sinners to live?
It is God's mercy we breath even one more breath.
And these particular people were idol worshipers, cruel etc etc.
They had time to make a different decision but chose not to.
Also one might ask why was Joshua so successful ( tho he did make at least one or two military mistakes so far).
And the answer to that is:
Joshua captured all these kings and their land at one time,
because
the Lord God of Israel fought for Israel.
If God is fighting for us, we are going to succeed!!
it does not matter what kind the battle is,
Actually, in some minor ways, that has in a sense, already happened a wee bit....I know it sounds silly
But for example, ( I think this is correct?) John MacArthur does not think we will see our 'pets' in Heaven,
and
Amir
Tsarfati, does not think any ( or perhaps very very few) Gentiles will be saved during the tribulation.
Of course, I would not wish any of my family to have to go thru the tribulation, but it has kind of always been a last resort hope, that they would not believe the 'lie' and might yet be saved.
However, I am not 100 percent certain about that...... some good pastors think Gentiles ( even tho the tribulation is mainly God dealing with Israel) can be saved and some...not so much.
So let's say, I cannot find a convicting consensus from commentaries on that issue....
So, I would first pray and beseech God that He might indeed draw my rebellious loved ones, if need be, during the tribulation.
I would also ask for the Holy Spirit to give me wisdom on this issue....
But, if not,
( or not yet.....because I have actually not known various things in scripture, and then decades later the answer came)
but in the end.....I would have to leave it in God's hands
and
I might,
in fact,
not get the answer until heaven
but I could rest, that God would always do the right thing....no matter if I understood or not.
I will await your thoughts.
www.gty.org/library/questions/QA103/do-all-dogs-really-go-to-heaven
He was answering a person who said that if animals weren't in heaven then it wouldn't feel like much of a heaven to him. He wants us to realize that our feelings don't matter. Only God's Word matters. So that's what he wrote. God doesn't come right out and say that our pets will be in heaven. He does say, and MacArthur agrees, that there will be animals in the Millennial Kingdom and in the New Heavens and Earth, which is "Heaven". it just doesn't say "our pets". So he's basically speaking about a technicality. He doesn't want to be responsible for telling someone that their pet will most certainly be in Heaven, when the Bible doesn't literally say that. It just says animals will be there. See what I mean?
As far as how you would get the right answer goes, you did have part of the answer. But not all of it. Perhaps it's because I wasn't clear about the question though. Let's say that there is obviously a correct answer to the question. It's not a question that is unclear in the Bible, such as the one about pets in heaven. In other words, even though different teachers/pastors think different things, only one of them can be right, unless of course, none of them are right. How then would you know what the truth is about that particular scripture? Remember, the pastors and teachers who write commentaries and books etc, no matter how great and godly they are, are human, just like us, and they make mistakes like we do too.
God tells us “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.” (Deut 29:29) and “The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.” (Psalm 25:14) There are some things we'll never fully understand like the Trinity or predestination and free will, etc. That we'll have to wait for heaven for and simply trust the Lord concerning them. The things that aren't specifically addressed are another thing that we'll have to wait on, while in the mean time, doing our best to do what we think would be His Will concerning them. But the things He tells us about, like who will be saved, etc. are for us to know. He wants us to know those things so He has told us about them in His Word.
So let's take the question about whether or not Gentiles will be saved during the tribulation. How can you discover the truth about that for yourself? Instead of just telling me how you would do it, do it and tell me your answer and how you got it. And yes, I'm aware this will take some time. So why don't you stop studying Joshua while you tackle this question. We'll get back to Joshua afterward. OK?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 8, 2019 12:18:15 GMT -5
So after all the warfare it is time to divide the land...as Joshua is advanced in age.
God said: "I myself will drive them out from before the people of Israel".
Tho not specifically said, I am thinking this was partially based on their obedience ( which we know they were not.....but of course, not just them, but throughout history every single person that ever lived....except Jesus ).
This somehow reminded me of Joshua and Calab way back when they said the land was ripe for taking but the other spies said there were giants. And yet, Joshua ( with God's help, blessing, wisdom etc etc.) was a military genius, and was right from the start....40 years and many deaths, could have been avoided...of course, not just listening to Joshua, but God. Nevertheless, God chose Joshua and enabled him.
So the boundaries of the half of the tribe of Manasseh the Reubenites and the Gadites inheritance, are delineated, in the land formerly belonging to Og king of Bashan, and Sihon king of the Amorites.
But the tribe of Levi alone Moses gave no inheritance. The offerings by fire to the Lord God of Israel are their inheritance, as he said to him.
An interesting aside was the verse that said: " Balaam also, the son of Beor, the one who practiced divination, was killed with the sword by the people of Israel among the rest of their slain."
Not quite sure why that was mentioned in this particular passage but I am sure there was a reason.
Then it mentions the Levites again:
"But to the tribe of Levi Moses gave no inheritance; the Lord God of Israel is their inheritance"
So their inheritance was the offerings but way more special and important, the Lord God of Israel.....
Which would be the most important to any person....to have God is to have everything, for ever.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 8, 2019 12:33:40 GMT -5
So I think to answer the question, I will have to of course pray first and then read as many of the Bible's scripture passages, that either directly or indirectly relate to who is saved during the tribulation.....and read some commentaries.
As I mentioned Amir thinks the tribulation is mainly God is dealing with the Jews
( he is NOT saying, no Gentiles will absolutely not be saved, he seems to be of the opinion only a few. at best....
but then, I may have misunderstood, what he was saying,
just like I did MacArthur....
or maybe rather his intentions.
Just like MacArthur did not say "our pets' per say.... and all the rest of what you said.
But anyway, I was just using ( what I kind of thought were their views...
and may I may have been wrong on both......I was just trying to give an example....but turns out, not good ones....
Well, what I mean is I may have missed part of what and why Amir seemed to exclude most Gentiles from being saved during the tribulation.....
I am pretty sure, part of his reason was he emphasizing that NOW is the time to be saved, not to put it off....and I think also his point was that now was the time, for the Gentiles. Do not wait, do not put off etc.
Well, anyway, I will go and see.....
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 9, 2019 8:54:46 GMT -5
First all believers will be taken during the rapture, so that before the tribulation, there will be no believers, Jews or Gentiles.
The question is will just Jews be saved or will Gentiles also during the tribulation?
I think it is clear from scripture that Jews will for sure be saved during what is called the time of Jacob's trouble
Jeremiah 30:7
"Alas! That day is so great
there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
yet he shall be saved out of it."
There will be 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel...I am thinking they will be Jewish evangelists basically.
Romans 11:25,26
"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved..."
Deuteronomy 4: 30, 31
When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the Lord your God and obey his voice 31 For the Lord your God is a merciful God. He will not leave you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers that he swore to them.
Daniel 12:1
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered,
2 Thessalonians 2: 9-11
" The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,"
I don't think this means just Gentiles will believe the lie, but that it will be hard for all to come to the truth during the tribulation.
I honestly think this means both Gentiles and Jews, can or will be saved during the tribulation
I am not certain but I think that maybe Acts 2: 19-21 could be during the tribulation and in that case....."EVERYONE" is the key word.
Acts 2: 19-21
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
However there is this scripture also:
Revelation 7:9
"a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages"
I can 'see' how, one might interpret it to mean 'just' Jews ( or mainly or mostly).
If one see the tribulation as God grafting the Jews back in, and it being God now dealing with the Jews during Jacob's trouble...
then the great multitude from every nation,
could be seen as the fact that Jews are in every nation.
As far as tribes we know there are ( or were) 12 for the Jews....
Tho, other people like Africans have 'tribes' and American Indians also etc.
but not so much ( at least not in our times) are Europeans, Caucasians etc. known as 'tribes' ( at least I don't 'think' so??)
And if the Jews are living in almost every country of the world, they would speak those languages, so that could 'fit'
The one word that cannot not seem to fit that interpretation is the word....'peoples'....that to me, seems to be anyone
I still cannot come to an absolute conclusive conclusion.
I have always thought, both Jews and Gentiles 'could' be saved during the tribulation....tho, I do think God is 're-grafting' the Jews back in during that time,
and in that sense, God is very focused ( or mainly) on the Jews.
I think it is safe to say, no one should put off being saved for a later time ( maybe even the tribulation)....now is the time.
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Post by Cindy on Jul 9, 2019 10:37:13 GMT -5
Joshua 10: 29-43
This passage is basically a telling of the Southern conquest of Joshua and all Israel.
Almost every verse starts with: "Then Joshua and all Israel with him".
It lists the cities they captured and follows often with: "And he devoted every person in it to destruction that day"
One might ask why?
The answer is: "He left none remaining, but devoted to destruction all that breathed,
just as the Lord God of Israel commanded".
I already mentioned what Pastor John MacArthur said that asking why God commanded the people to be killed, is actually the wrong question.
A better question is why does he allow any of us sinners to live?
It is God's mercy we breath even one more breath.
And these particular people were idol worshipers, cruel etc etc.
They had time to make a different decision but chose not to.
Also one might ask why was Joshua so successful ( tho he did make at least one or two military mistakes so far).
And the answer to that is:
Joshua captured all these kings and their land at one time,
because
the Lord God of Israel fought for Israel.
If God is fighting for us, we are going to succeed!!
it does not matter what kind the battle is,
Actually, in some minor ways, that has in a sense, already happened a wee bit....I know it sounds silly
But for example, ( I think this is correct?) John MacArthur does not think we will see our 'pets' in Heaven,
and
Amir
Tsarfati, does not think any ( or perhaps very very few) Gentiles will be saved during the tribulation.
Of course, I would not wish any of my family to have to go thru the tribulation, but it has kind of always been a last resort hope, that they would not believe the 'lie' and might yet be saved.
However, I am not 100 percent certain about that...... some good pastors think Gentiles ( even tho the tribulation is mainly God dealing with Israel) can be saved and some...not so much.
So let's say, I cannot find a convicting consensus from commentaries on that issue....
So, I would first pray and beseech God that He might indeed draw my rebellious loved ones, if need be, during the tribulation.
I would also ask for the Holy Spirit to give me wisdom on this issue....
But, if not,
( or not yet.....because I have actually not known various things in scripture, and then decades later the answer came)
but in the end.....I would have to leave it in God's hands
and
I might,
in fact,
not get the answer until heaven
but I could rest, that God would always do the right thing....no matter if I understood or not.
I will await your thoughts.
www.gty.org/library/questions/QA103/do-all-dogs-really-go-to-heaven
He was answering a person who said that if animals weren't in heaven then it wouldn't feel like much of a heaven to him. He wants us to realize that our feelings don't matter. Only God's Word matters. So that's what he wrote. God doesn't come right out and say that our pets will be in heaven. He does say, and MacArthur agrees, that there will be animals in the Millennial Kingdom and in the New Heavens and Earth, which is "Heaven". it just doesn't say "our pets". So he's basically speaking about a technicality. He doesn't want to be responsible for telling someone that their pet will most certainly be in Heaven, when the Bible doesn't literally say that. It just says animals will be there. See what I mean?
As far as how you would get the right answer goes, you did have part of the answer. But not all of it. Perhaps it's because I wasn't clear about the question though. Let's say that there is obviously a correct answer to the question. It's not a question that is unclear in the Bible, such as the one about pets in heaven. In other words, even though different teachers/pastors think different things, only one of them can be right, unless of course, none of them are right. How then would you know what the truth is about that particular scripture? Remember, the pastors and teachers who write commentaries and books etc, no matter how great and godly they are, are human, just like us, and they make mistakes like we do too.
God tells us “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.” (Deut 29:29) and “The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.” (Psalm 25:14) There are some things we'll never fully understand like the Trinity or predestination and free will, etc. That we'll have to wait for heaven for and simply trust the Lord concerning them. The things that aren't specifically addressed are another thing that we'll have to wait on, while in the mean time, doing our best to do what we think would be His Will concerning them. But the things He tells us about, like who will be saved, etc. are for us to know. He wants us to know those things so He has told us about them in His Word.
So let's take the question about whether or not Gentiles will be saved during the tribulation. How can you discover the truth about that for yourself? Instead of just telling me how you would do it, do it and tell me your answer and how you got it. And yes, I'm aware this will take some time. So why don't you stop studying Joshua while you tackle this question. We'll get back to Joshua afterward. OK?
Joshua 11: 1-11
Several commentaries I read, mention God kindness to Israel, in that ,both the North and Southern kings did not unite to fight Israel at the beginning.
And these Northern kings had horses and chariots, of which Israel had none.....
plus this was a huge group of people, so much so, they appeared to be like the sand of the sea, their numbers were so big!
It tells us of the various places these kings and peoples came from ( mountains and valleys etc).
They encamped together at the waters of Merom, to fight against Israel, with their horses and chariots. They probably felt pretty confident, because Israel only had foot soldiers, but then men's might is never to be the thing to hang one's hat on. This is often even true with a big strong man and a smaller wirier faster man. The big strong brute, often cannot move fast enough and can lose a fight to the smaller ( but strong man....and if he is one of the Lord's the odds could be even more in favor of the 'little'.
As in this case, because: "And the Lord said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid of them, for tomorrow at this time I will give over all of them, slain, to Israel".
Being encouraged by God, Joshua sets off and surprised them ( perhaps they thought Joshua would be shaking in his sandals somewhere for a long time trying to work up courage or figure out where to flee)?
However, just as God had said, they killed many by the 'surprise' and chased the rest.
Then Joshua turned back, and took Hazor, and killed the king that put together this coalition.
all the spoil of these cities and the livestock, the people of Israel took for their plunder..this kind of makes me think of how the 1st fruits ( be it really fruit, children, or money or whatever) belongs to the Lord.....of course, everything IS the Lord's.....but had Achan only waited and had his mind set on God.
Joshua however did have his mind set on the Lord and did all that God commanded.
However, the war was long. So is my war with sin, and it's important to do what God tells me in scripture.
Another interesting thing is that:
"For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them..."
Then the land had rest ( for a time).
Joshua 12
First these verses describes the land and kings defeated by Moses....( 2 on one side of the Jordan)
Sihon king of the Amorites and and Og king of Bashan
I had not realized how big the area was ( or it seems like it).
"Moses the servant of the Lord gave their land for a possession to the Reubenites and the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh".
I am thinking it is always good to remember what the Lord has done in mercies, miracles, provisions, comforts, love etc. in the past as well as in the present.
And then the 31 one kings by Joshua.
This shows the faithfulness of God to his chosen.
I started thinking if each king were instead a sin of mine and I could say the Lord killed them dead what a great joy....to be forever gone.
So after all the warfare it is time to divide the land...as Joshua is advanced in age.
God said: "I myself will drive them out from before the people of Israel".
Tho not specifically said, I am thinking this was partially based on their obedience ( which we know they were not.....but of course, not just them, but throughout history every single person that ever lived....except Jesus ).
This somehow reminded me of Joshua and Calab way back when they said the land was ripe for taking but the other spies said there were giants. And yet, Joshua ( with God's help, blessing, wisdom etc etc.) was a military genius, and was right from the start....40 years and many deaths, could have been avoided...of course, not just listening to Joshua, but God. Nevertheless, God chose Joshua and enabled him.
So the boundaries of the half of the tribe of Manasseh the Reubenites and the Gadites inheritance, are delineated, in the land formerly belonging to Og king of Bashan, and Sihon king of the Amorites.
But the tribe of Levi alone Moses gave no inheritance. The offerings by fire to the Lord God of Israel are their inheritance, as he said to him.
An interesting aside was the verse that said: " Balaam also, the son of Beor, the one who practiced divination, was killed with the sword by the people of Israel among the rest of their slain."
Not quite sure why that was mentioned in this particular passage but I am sure there was a reason.
Then it mentions the Levites again:
"But to the tribe of Levi Moses gave no inheritance; the Lord God of Israel is their inheritance"
So their inheritance was the offerings but way more special and important, the Lord God of Israel.....
Which would be the most important to any person....to have God is to have everything, for ever.
So I think to answer the question, I will have to of course pray first and then read as many of the Bible's scripture passages, that either directly or indirectly relate to who is saved during the tribulation.....and read some commentaries.
As I mentioned Amir thinks the tribulation is mainly God is dealing with the Jews
( he is NOT saying, no Gentiles will absolutely not be saved, he seems to be of the opinion only a few. at best....
but then, I may have misunderstood, what he was saying,
just like I did MacArthur....
or maybe rather his intentions.
Just like MacArthur did not say "our pets' per say.... and all the rest of what you said.
But anyway, I was just using ( what I kind of thought were their views...
and may I may have been wrong on both......I was just trying to give an example....but turns out, not good ones....
Well, what I mean is I may have missed part of what and why Amir seemed to exclude most Gentiles from being saved during the tribulation.....
I am pretty sure, part of his reason was he emphasizing that NOW is the time to be saved, not to put it off....and I think also his point was that now was the time, for the Gentiles. Do not wait, do not put off etc.
Well, anyway, I will go and see.....
First all believers will be taken during the rapture, so that before the tribulation, there will be no believers, Jews or Gentiles.
The question is will just Jews be saved or will Gentiles also during the tribulation?
I think it is clear from scripture that Jews will for sure be saved during what is called the time of Jacob's trouble
Jeremiah 30:7
"Alas! That day is so great
there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
yet he shall be saved out of it."
Romans 11:25,26
"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[d] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved..."
Deuteronomy 4: 30, 31
When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the Lord your God and obey his voice 31 For the Lord your God is a merciful God. He will not leave you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers that he swore to them.
Daniel 12:1
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered,
However there is this scripture also:
Revelation 7:9
"a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages"
But I'll give you a hint. Here's a verse that can cause some to think that no Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation: “I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25) So, if we believe that many gentiles will be saved during the Trib, or even that a few will be saved, we need to be able to reconcile it with this verse. it helps to use common sense when considering this verse. First think, are any Jews being saved now, while Israel is being hardened? If so, then what does he mean that "Israel has experienced a hardening"? Is that different then saying for example, "all Jews have experienced a hardening?" Think: When a Jew has been saved, what happened to them spiritually? Are they still a member of "Israel" or do they become "a new creature", and "a part of the body of Christ, the Church"? Or, are only Gentiles that have been saved since Jesus came a part of the Church? By the way, there is also a "fullness" for Israel as well: “But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!” (Romans 11:12) We also need to know when that will happen. It may help you to read all of Romans 11. Another section that may help is: “For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name.” Again, it says, “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.” And again, “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples.” And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him.”” (Romans 15:8–12) Here he's quoting 2 Samuel 22:50; Psalm 18:49; Deut. 32:43; Psalm 117:1; and Isaiah 11:10. Also, Ephesians 2:11-22 explains what happens to Jews and Gentiles when they're saved.
You may also want to read about the Judgements of the Sheep and Goats in Matthew 25:31-46 as this happens right after the Tribulation. (this is not the great white throne judgment). This is sometimes called the judgement of the Nations, but as you'll see, it's individuals that are judged. It's telling who, of all those alive after the Tribulation is over, will be going on to live in the Millennial Kingdom. Wiersbe explains that there are 3 groups here: “brethren” (the Jews), “sheep” (people who received the Jews during the Tribulation), and “goats” (the people who persecuted the Jews and rejected the message).
It also helps a great deal if we understand what the purpose of the Tribulation is.
Hope this all helps you!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 10, 2019 12:04:54 GMT -5
How strange.....I had written more, with more quotes....and it looks like only 2/3 of what I wrote showed up??
I wonder if maybe when I copied it before posting
I try to do that every single time now because about every 20th post or so.....instead of posting on this site
it reverts back to the old site ( and I have to do a sign in, which will then bring me to this site.......
however, ( if I have not copied what I am about to post) everything is Lost.....because it somehow thought it was going to be posted on the old site, but instead, is lost in 'space', never to be seen again.
Sooooo all that to say, I always ( or I try to) copy before posting....
but maybe I didn't grab the last 1/3 and somehow, it didn't 'take'?
It's never done that little 'trick' before..... sigh.
Sooooo I had posted some from Romans and a few others but arrgghhh
Oh well, it certainly won't hurt to re-read and read your suggestions and add more to another post today.
Wait I went back into my 'history' and I think I found it.....but why did it not all post???
Here it is:
_____________________________________________________________________
First all believers will be taken during the rapture, so that before the tribulation, there will be no believers, Jews or Gentiles.
The question is will just Jews be saved or will Gentiles also during the tribulation?
I think it is clear from scripture that Jews will for sure be saved during what is called the time of Jacob's trouble
Jeremiah 30:7
"Alas! That day is so great
there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
yet he shall be saved out of it."
There will be 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel...I am thinking they will be Jewish evangelists basically.
Romans 11:25,26
"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved..."
Deuteronomy 4: 30, 31
When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the Lord your God and obey his voice 31 For the Lord your God is a merciful God. He will not leave you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers that he swore to them.
Daniel 12:1
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered,
2 Thessalonians 2: 9-11
" The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,"
I don't 'think'... this means JUST Gentiles will believe the lie,
but that it will be hard for ALL to come to the truth during the tribulation.
I honestly think this means BOTH Gentiles and Jews, can or will be saved during the tribulation
I am not certain but I think that maybe Acts 2: 19-21 could be during the tribulation and in that case....."EVERYONE" is the key word.
Acts 2: 19-21
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that 'EVERYONE' who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
However there is this scripture also:
Revelation 7:9
"a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages"
I can 'see' how, one 'might' or 'could' interpret it to mean 'just' Jews ( or mainly or mostly).
If one see the tribulation as God grafting the Jews back in,
and it being God now dealing with the Jews (mainly) during 'Jacob's' trouble...
then the great multitude from every nation,
could be seen as the fact that Jews are in every nation.
As far as tribes we know there are ( or were) 12 for the Jews....
Tho, other people like Africans have 'tribes' and American Indians also etc.
but not so much ( at least not in our times) are Europeans, Caucasians etc. known as 'tribes'
( at least I don't 'think' so??)
And if the Jews are living in almost every country of the world, they would speak those languages, so that 'could' kind of 'fit'
The one word that cannot not seem to fit that interpretation is the word....'
peoples'....that to me, seems to be ..........anyone
I still cannot come to an 'absolute conclusive conclusion'.
I have 'always' thought, both Jews and Gentiles 'could' be saved during the tribulation....
I still do
tho, I do think God is 're-grafting' the Jews back in during that time,
and in that sense, God is very focused ( or is it mainly) on the Jews?
I think it is safe to say, no one should put off being saved for a later time ( maybe even the tribulation)....now is the time.
______________________________________________________________________
Nevertheless, I will still read the scriptures you suggested and see if I can learn even more
( well of course I can, I will never stop learning from scripture LOL
But I think you get my drift
Thank you.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 10, 2019 12:45:52 GMT -5
So I was 'thinking' when you mentioned about Israel being blinded now, and yet, Jews are ( and have been) being saved.....that tho, could be ( in someone thinking only a 'few' Gentiles would be saved during the trib) because tho Jews are being saved during the 'hardening'....it's still relatively few.
I am not arguing for this to be....I am so wanting it to be 'whosoever' will come to Jesus, now and then.....
but I am trying to be sure. I don't want to fall into a super 'liberal' trap, for example of those who would say....well God is love, and so He would not send anyone to Hell.
I want to base it on what God has said....period.
So in Romans when it says: "......how much more will their full inclusion mean!"
that seems to me to say....the Gentiles are being saved and will be and then......the Jews also
In other words....both....together....in the future.
And again in Romans 11 this too sounds like ALL or both
"If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches."
It does go on to warn tho, that we as the grafted in branches, could be 'cut off' due to pride etc. and it seems we have never 'evolved' from pride....if anything it is now becoming a major part of sooo many peoples 'black pride' rainbow people's pride, kids are being 'taught' to be "proud' of themselves etc etc.
But then there is this verse, which if read alone could cause another set of issues/problems etc.
32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
I am just focusing on the "mercy; for all part ( not the disobedience right now).
I will look at the other verses tomorrow.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 11, 2019 10:03:40 GMT -5
back to Joshua
Chapter 15
Which gives a very detailed description of the exact boundaries of Judah's land.
it is kind of crazy to think some people don't think the Jews every had the land when it is so well defined here thousands of years ago!
Then starting with verse 17 we get to Caleb who was to get a portion among the people of Judah....and drove out from there the three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak.
Then we come to his daughter and how she asks of her father a field and he grants it...
As so often does our Father in heaven ( if it is the best thing for us at that time....but we surely can ask)!
Then is a listing of the cities, in the South, one of them named Ziklag
( I am not sure if this is the same Ziklag, that was in the news 2 days ago...saying they had found this city....or at least, a city by that name),
29 cities in all
Then in the lowlands
The Hill country also.
And finally the ones in the wilderness are listed ( one is interestingly called: the City of Salt)
The last sentence is a problem tho:
But the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the people of Judah could not drive out, so the Jebusites dwell with the people of Judah at Jerusalem to this day".
Like we talked about the results of not eliminating all of them.
And I am sure people will say that would be genocide...the very thing people have tried to do concerning the Jews from practically day one. So why is it wrong if its the Jews but okay or even God condoned with all of these people.
It was not an issue of 'race' with the pagan people, but of gross sin, rebellion, paganism etc.
As you mentioned if the had all been killed the babies and children would have gone straight to Heaven, but instead millions upon millions have instead gone to hell.
People try to eliminate the Jews based on race, envy, etc. but underlining that, it also is a 'spiritual' issue, but because satan wanted to stop Jesus from being born, and ever since it seems the devil has had it in for the Jews ( and Christians).
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 12, 2019 11:03:01 GMT -5
Joshua 16, 17
The Allotment for Ephraim and Manasseh
Verse 10 says:
However, they did not drive out the Canaanites who lived in Gezer, so the Canaanites have lived in the midst of Ephraim to this day but have been made to do forced labor.
It seems like they could have driven them out, if they were made to do force labor, so it seems like disobedience to God....again.
Joshua 17
It seems like Manasseh the first born received a bigger portion, being first born?
What is interesting is 5 woman ( there were no sons) petition Joshua for land and are granted it.
And yet again we come to:
"12 Yet the people of Manasseh could not take possession of those cities, but the Canaanites persisted in dwelling in that land. 13 Now when the people of Israel grew strong, they put the Canaanites to forced labor, but did not utterly drive them out."
Which seems odd, because it they could put them to forced labor, why could they not utterly drive them out?
Then the people of Joseph complained that they had only received one lot and they were a large group of people.
So he gives them permission to clear the forests.
But they grumble about that.
I am reminded to be always grateful for what God blesses me with. I remember hearing somewhere that if God gives us a gift and we complain that its not big enough, or expensive enough or whatever....well if we gave our child a gift and they threw it on the floor in a rage like that...we would not be so inclined to hurry and give them the even better gift we had actually gotten them....and perhaps God as our Father, might also do the same....until we got an attitude adjustment of gratitude.
Besides these folks were many and had great power, they just needed to use a little elbow grease ( as my mom used to say....not sure if there ever was a 'real' elbow grease LOL)
Anyway, with some effort they could extend their border but they rather complain and make excuses it seemed?
Yes, I need to 'count my blessings and name them one by one, so that I will see what the Lord has done for me!!
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Post by Cindy on Jul 12, 2019 11:48:33 GMT -5
How strange.....I had written more, with more quotes....and it looks like only 2/3 of what I wrote showed up??
I wonder if maybe when I copied it before posting
I try to do that every single time now because about every 20th post or so.....instead of posting on this site
it reverts back to the old site ( and I have to do a sign in, which will then bring me to this site.......
however, ( if I have not copied what I am about to post) everything is Lost.....because it somehow thought it was going to be posted on the old site, but instead, is lost in 'space', never to be seen again.
Sooooo all that to say, I always ( or I try to) copy before posting....
but maybe I didn't grab the last 1/3 and somehow, it didn't 'take'?
It's never done that little 'trick' before..... sigh.
Sooooo I had posted some from Romans and a few others but arrgghhh
Oh well, it certainly won't hurt to re-read and read your suggestions and add more to another post today.
Wait I went back into my 'history' and I think I found it.....but why did it not all post???
Here it is:
_____________________________________________________________________
First all believers will be taken during the rapture, so that before the tribulation, there will be no believers, Jews or Gentiles.
The question is will just Jews be saved or will Gentiles also during the tribulation?
I think it is clear from scripture that Jews will for sure be saved during what is called the time of Jacob's trouble
Jeremiah 30:7
"Alas! That day is so great
there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
yet he shall be saved out of it."
There will be 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel...I am thinking they will be Jewish evangelists basically.
Romans 11:25,26
"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved..."
Deuteronomy 4: 30, 31
When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the Lord your God and obey his voice 31 For the Lord your God is a merciful God. He will not leave you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers that he swore to them.
Daniel 12:1
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered,
2 Thessalonians 2: 9-11
" The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,"
I don't 'think'... this means JUST Gentiles will believe the lie,
but that it will be hard for ALL to come to the truth during the tribulation.
I honestly think this means BOTH Gentiles and Jews, can or will be saved during the tribulation
I am not certain but I think that maybe Acts 2: 19-21 could be during the tribulation and in that case....."EVERYONE" is the key word.
Acts 2: 19-21
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that 'EVERYONE' who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
However there is this scripture also:
Revelation 7:9
"a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages"
I can 'see' how, one 'might' or 'could' interpret it to mean 'just' Jews ( or mainly or mostly).
If one see the tribulation as God grafting the Jews back in,
and it being God now dealing with the Jews (mainly) during 'Jacob's' trouble...
then the great multitude from every nation,
could be seen as the fact that Jews are in every nation.
As far as tribes we know there are ( or were) 12 for the Jews....
Tho, other people like Africans have 'tribes' and American Indians also etc.
but not so much ( at least not in our times) are Europeans, Caucasians etc. known as 'tribes'
( at least I don't 'think' so??)
And if the Jews are living in almost every country of the world, they would speak those languages, so that 'could' kind of 'fit'
The one word that cannot not seem to fit that interpretation is the word....'
peoples'....that to me, seems to be ..........anyone
I still cannot come to an 'absolute conclusive conclusion'.
I have 'always' thought, both Jews and Gentiles 'could' be saved during the tribulation....
I still do
tho, I do think God is 're-grafting' the Jews back in during that time,
and in that sense, God is very focused ( or is it mainly) on the Jews?
I think it is safe to say, no one should put off being saved for a later time ( maybe even the tribulation)....now is the time.
______________________________________________________________________
Nevertheless, I will still read the scriptures you suggested and see if I can learn even more
( well of course I can, I will never stop learning from scripture LOL
But I think you get my drift
Thank you.
The only other thing I can think of is to make a short post somewhere else first before you post here, to make sure you're signed in and everything's working. The only other reason the board would not save your post is if you time out, which happens if you spend hours on a post without submitting it.
About our question:
Seeing the great multitude from every nation, as the fact that Jews are in every nation and it could be speaking of only Jew's is really taking that out of context and making it say something it isn't says.
In Rev 7:9 the word translated "tribe" is actually translated "kindred" with the meaning of "nations" more often. it's not speaking of tribes like Indian tribes or the tribes of Israel. You'd really have to try and make that verse say something it's not to say it's talking about only Jews. Remember, God is speaking to us, the same way we speak to each other. It's not hard to understand. We don't have to take every word apart and "try and figure it out". His meaning is plain. If I said to you, "the president is hosting a huge party and is inviting the heads from every nation, tribe, people and language to attend" you wouldn't even hesitate, but would know exactly what I meant. So why are you trying to make God's Word say something it's not?
So I was 'thinking' when you mentioned about Israel being blinded now, and yet, Jews are ( and have been) being saved.....that tho, could be ( in someone thinking only a 'few' Gentiles would be saved during the trib) because tho Jews are being saved during the 'hardening'....it's still relatively few.
I am not arguing for this to be....I am so wanting it to be 'whosoever' will come to Jesus, now and then.....
but I am trying to be sure. I don't want to fall into a super 'liberal' trap, for example of those who would say....well God is love, and so He would not send anyone to Hell.
I want to base it on what God has said....period.
So in Romans when it says: "......how much more will their full inclusion mean!"
that seems to me to say....the Gentiles are being saved and will be and then......the Jews also
In other words....both....together....in the future.
And again in Romans 11 this too sounds like ALL or both
"If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches."
It does go on to warn tho, that we as the grafted in branches, could be 'cut off' due to pride etc. and it seems we have never 'evolved' from pride....if anything it is now becoming a major part of sooo many peoples 'black pride' rainbow people's pride, kids are being 'taught' to be "proud' of themselves etc etc.
But then there is this verse, which if read alone could cause another set of issues/problems etc.
32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
I am just focusing on the "mercy; for all part ( not the disobedience right now).
I will look at the other verses tomorrow.
Yes, the Jew's are hardened now, and yet some are being saved. It seems like "few" to you, but then, if we're realistic only a "few" gentiles are really being saved too, when you compare it to the vast numbers of unsaved gentiles. Let me make this as easy as I can, or at least I think this will make it easier for you to understand. God took Abraham and from him, started a race that we call the Jew's. He did that so the Jew's would tell the world about Him and all could be saved. But the Jew's AS A NATION didn't do their job. Individually, SOME Jew's did believe, they were saved and did God's Will as best they could. But as a nation, it didn't happen. So Jesus came to first, set them straight. AS A NATION they rejected Him and refused to believe Him; yet SOME did believe and were saved and did His will as best they could. If THE NATIONS LEADERS (because they represent the nation) had believed Jesus and accepted Him as their Messiah, then Jesus would have died for the sins of the world, risen, and then immediately began the Millennial Kingdom. But the LEADERS, meaning THE NATION did not accept Him. Therefore Jesus died for our sins, rose, and started a new creation, THE CHURCH. All the Jew's from that day forward that believed in Jesus would now be part of THE CHURCH, and no longer part of ISRAEL. All Gentiles that were saved from that point on would also be part of THE CHURCH. Jesus made the two - Jews and Gentiles - ONE in the CHURCH. (Ephesians 2:14) The NATION of Israel is hardened, but those who belong to the Chruch are not, they are saved, just as the Gentiles are saved. (because God knows who belongs to Him, even before they recognize Him and are saved.)
When the church is raptured, there will once again be two kinds of people on the earth - Jew's and Gentiles. God will once more judge the Gentile nations and individuals based on how they treat Israel and individual Jews. (the judgement of the Sheep and Goats). After the rapture, there will be many NATIONS on the earth, including the NATION OF ISRAEL. And Israel will once again be God's "focus" as you've said. But, you're thinking of focus too narrowly. When God helps me or grants me a very huge miracle, He hasn't taken His eyes off of you while He does that for me. Nor will He take His eyes off the Gentiles when He's focusing on Israel during the Tribulation. The reason we say He is focusing on Israel, is because He is preparing them, through the Tribulation, to be saved so He can fulfill all His promises to them.
Look at it this way. During all the years that God was teaching Israel, and disciplining her, was He ignoring the Gentiles? No! Look at what happened even at the beginning: God gave them the promised land because the Gentiles wouldn't repent. That doesn't sound to me like He wasn't paying attention to us! God also judged Sodom and Gomorrah due to their sins, as well as the surrounding towns. Again, He was watching. God sent Jonah, His prophet, to who? The Gentiles in Nineveh, to warn them to repent and they did! While we're not told of any other prophets being sent to Gentiles, we are told of numerous miracles being done by prophets for Gentiles during the long history of Israel. Such as Naaman being healed of Leprosy by Elisha, (and no Jew was ever healed of Leprosy during the OT times!) or the widow and her son who God granted a miracle to so her oil wouldn't run out and she was therefore able to feed them until the famine was over, or the Shunammite woman who Elisha told she would have the son she'd always wanted, and then years later when the son died, Elisha restored him to life for her. So even during the OT times when God was focused on Israel, God was paying a LOT of attention to Gentiles as well. The only reason we say He was focused on Israel then was because that's where the Messiah would come from, and they were the ones who were supposed to tell the world about Him, so He was trying to teach them. At the same time however, He was also very active and very interested in what every Gentile was doing as well. That's one reason we're told about individuals and not just major groups of people. It's like when my kids were all little. I had 5 children under the age of 6 years old. When I'd take them out to play, I often focused on the youngest, but that didn't mean I wasn't also paying attention to the others!
OK, now, for the Tribulation itself. Why is God causing the Tribulation to happen? Why is it called "Jacob's Trouble"? Here's the answer: ““Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” (Daniel 9:24) To make this easier, I'm going to quote what MacArthur says about this:
God promises 2 sets of 3 accomplishments each. First, those related to sin are: 1) finish the transgression, i.e., restrain sin and Israel’s in particular in its long trend of apostasy, as in v. 11; 2) make an end of sin, i.e., to judge it with finality (cf. Heb 9:26); and 3) make atonement for iniquity, signifies to furnish the actual basis of covering sin by full atonement, the blood of the crucified Messiah who is “cut off” (Daniel 9:26), which affects the first two realities (cf. the fountain of Zechariah 13:1 a fountain … for sin and for impurity. A symbolic reference to the means of cleansing and purification through the atoning death of the pierced One (cf. 1 John 1:7). This has direct reference to the New Covenant of Jer 31:31–34; Eze 36:25–32; Rom 11:26–29. So the storm that broke upon Israel for the crime of Calvary and has raged with unmitigated fury for long, tragic centuries, will suddenly end and salvation will turn sin into righteousness in the gladness and glory of the kingdom of Messiah Jesus.).
Second, those accomplishments related to righteousness are: 1) bring in … righteousness, the eternal righteousness of Daniel’s people in their great change from centuries of apostasy; 2) seal up vision, i.e., no more revelation is needed and God will bring these anticipations to completion by their fulfillment in Israel’s blessing as a nation; and 3) anoint the most holy place, consecrate the Holy Place in a temple of the future that will be the center of worship in the millennial kingdom (cf. Eze 40–48). Clearly this must be understood to sweep to the end of Gentile power and the time of Antichrist right before Christ’s return. Summing up, the first 3 are fulfilled in principle at Christ’s first coming, in full at His return. The last 3 complete the plan at His Second Advent. The MacArthur study Bible
It's all because of them not accepting Christ when He came to them. God can't fulfill His promises to them AS A NATION until they accept their Messiah AS A NATION. They can't be saved AS A NATION until they do. Before the Tribulation they're saved individually, but not as A NATION. Now, remember what God's promises to them were? He first told Abraham: ““I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”” (Genesis 12:2–3) In Deuteronomy 30 God tells THE NATION of Israel what He will do for them after they've finally turned back to Him as a Nation. First He tells them that when all the bad things have happened to them (including the Tribulation) and they finally turn back to Him with all their hearts, He will gather them up from all the lands and bring them back to the promised land. Many take this verse to mean what's happened recently, but it doesn't. It's speaking about what will happen after the Tribulation. “He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.” (Deuteronomy 30:5) Obviously, that hasn't been fulfilled yet. Neither has the next verse: “The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.” (Deuteronomy 30:6) Here He is talking about the NATION, not just individuals. This is a picture of "all Israel being saved". “The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you.” (Deuteronomy 30:7) No one will have to guess if the curses have been put on their enemies when God fulfills this promise; and it's not being fulfilled now! The rest of this chapter tells us more about it. And in Deuteronomy 28 we have the promises that will finally be fulfilled during the Millennium. Actually, even the boundaries of Israel's land were never totally fulfilled at any time and won't be until the Millennial Kingdom. Promises like these are for a NATION, although they will affect individuals.
Do you see the distinction? God promised Abraham to make his descendants in a nation and He did so. He then gave them promises of what their life as a Nation would be like if they loved Him and obeyed Him with all their hearts. The only time they got close to that was in David's time, but even then we know what sin did and how the Nation rebelled and soon after was divided in two. The Tribulation's purpose for the Nation of Israel is to bring them to repentance so they will accept Jesus as their Messiah, and be saved, so God can keep His promises to them as a Nation. Because of His mercy though, He is allowing individual Jews to be saved now and become part of the Church. Just as He allowed individual Gentiles to be saved during the OT times and become part of Israel. (all who were saved, had to accept obey the laws of Israel, which were after all, God's laws, and so they became part of Israel.)
Finally Isaiah 66 speaks about this too. Let me quote some of it and you'll have to read it carefully: ““I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the LORD—on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says the LORD. “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the LORD in ceremonially clean vessels. And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says the LORD.” (Isaiah 66:19–21) This is again speaking about the end of the Tribulation, start of the Millennial Kingdom. Who do you see it speaking about? Only Jews? No, all those others are Gentiles. The Gentiles are bringing the Jews to Jerusalem, to the Temple that will be there. (the Lord will make one there). Here is an amazing verse for verse 21 says that the Lord will also choose some Gentiles to be priests in His Temple during the Millennium! Just as God took the Levites from among the Israelites & gave them as gifts to the Israelites (Nm 8:6–19; 18:6) so God will choose non-Israelite believers in the future, taking them “into captivity” in Christ (see Eph 4:7–8). The Apologetics Study Bible
Finally “And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.” (Romans 11:26) Again, this is speaking of the Nation of Israel, not just individuals. BUT when it says "all" it's not speaking of every single Jew. I know that sounds contradictory, but give me a moment. God is saving a nation here, and a nation is made up of people obviously. So, when the Nation is saved, then "all" the people in it will be saved, right? Right. But before the Nation is saved, some Jews will not be saved. Just as now, God knows who belongs to Him and will during the Tribulation as well. Many Jews will choose to worship the antichrist and will not be saved. Those who go through the Tribulation and do not give in to the antichrist, but continue to worship God, will eventually be saved. They will eventually, realize that Jesus was and is their Messiah. Those who do not realize that, will obviously not be saved. Their hearts will be too hard. Many Jews will be saved all during the tribulation, but there will be many who will wait till nearly the end before they accept Jesus. But every single one that does accept Jesus and lives through the Trib, will be saved and will be part of the Nation of Israel that will see all God's promises fulfilled during the Millennial Kingdom.
This verse says what I've been trying to, best of all: “It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” (Romans 9:6) Just as we've been told that those who say they're saved, but have no fruit, are not really saved; that those who leave the faith, were never really saved to start with, so those Jews during the Tribulation who do not accept Jesus were never really part of the Nation of Israel to start with! Only those who are saved are really Israel. The rest were just Jewish. So once every last Jewish person is saved during the Tribulation, THEN, "all Israel will be saved"!
Now, since God promised the Nation of Israel among other things, that they would be the head of all the nations on earth, don't you think that means there will be other nations on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? (Deuteronomy 28:13) By the way, this is another promise that hasn't yet been fulfilled so must be in the Millennial Kingdom). Also, “If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth.” (Deuteronomy 28:1) “He has declared that he will set you in praise, fame and honor high above all the nations he has made and that you will be a people holy to the LORD your God, as he promised.” (Deuteronomy 26:19)
Those other nations are filled with Gentiles that have been saved during the Tribulation and are repopulating the earth. How could the Nation of Israel rule over other nations if there were no Gentiles or even if there weren't very many Gentiles left? Everyone that goes into the Millennial Kingdom will be saved, but the children they have will have to choose, but those of the Gentiles and those of the nation of Israel. (because only during the start of the Millennial Kingdom will all Jews be part of the Nation of Israel - as soon as one of their children chooses not to be saved, they will again not be part of the real Israel.)
“To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery’— just as I have received authority from my Father.” (Revelation 2:26–27) This promise is made to Gentiles and Jews who are saved. Again, who are the nations? Only Israel? That's impossible. When Jesus takes the scroll from the Father: “And they sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”” (Revelation 5:9–10) Which reminds us of Revelation 7:9 which we already talked about. Revelation 20:7–8 talks about Satan leading a massive number of people from all the nations against Israel at the end of the Tribulation. Those people he's leading are the people born during the Tribulation that did not choose Jesus and haven't been saved. They are both Gentiles and Jews. “and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.” (Revelation 20:8)
Here's another famous verse about the Millennial Kingdom: “He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4) We would really have to twist the normal meaning of those words to make them be about just Israel.
So, now it's Friday. I've taken way too long on this and wound up answering for you. I should delete it all, but I won't. I had to assume you were done answering the question since you started with Joshua again. So take the weekend and really study about this in your Bible. Let's talk about it more. Forget Joshua for now. It may take you all weekend to read this!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 13, 2019 12:29:13 GMT -5
I think you misunderstood, maybe, what I was saying.
You had asked, I 'think',
how would I discern the truth of some scripture, If it was not clear to me.
So I was thinking about MacArthur.... and pets in or not in Heaven..
( which you explained)
But when I mentioned Amir....I was not saying I agreed with his thoughts on the Trib being mainly for the Jews.
I was using it,
as IF,
I did not know the answer....
and when I presented how I 'thought',
that, maybe ..
( but I am not sure)
how he 'might' think that.....
I was not saying that was what I thought....
I was using it, as IF I did not know....
going back to your original question,
of how could I then find the truth of scripture,
concerning a question, if I did not know the answer.....
So I was writing as IF I was not sure if the trib
( and Jacob's trouble)....
was it for the Jews only or mainly.....
or for everybody to be,,,, or could be,,, saved at that time)
And then I tried to look at as many scriptures to see if I could find God's truth.....
As far as I had gotten,
still going on the basis,
I did not have any idea as to the absolute correct answer to that
and how would I find out.....
I was so far.....mostly coming to the conviction it was for everyone,
but could not yet make a solid conclusion ( I was going to go on, but had concluded for sure, that NOW is the time of salvation for the Gentiles and Jews ( tho most will be saved during the Tribulation)
that Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation for sure, I had begun to see and point out scriptures that said that...but was going to see if there were even more
However,
thank you for adding everything you wrote today....
I have read it all, and will re-read it.
I did write that, actually,
I always thought it was for both Jews and Gentiles to be saved during the Tribulation.
And I do not think every Bible teacher is 100 percent correct all the time ....
I suppose even MacArthur has been wrong about something?
( I could only think of the pets in Heaven issue, and that was my misunderstanding what he actually said).
And so, I am not sure if I have not also misunderstood what Amir said also......
but since you did not hear what he said ( like you did MacArthur) and could not explain because you did not hear it....
then, I went with it 'as if' it was as I thought,
that really was what he said
because he too is not 100 percent correct
and that could be where he is
confused....maybe being an Israeli Jewish Christian has something to do with it.....I have no idea tho....
as I may have even misunderstood what he said, like I did MacArthur.
Still, I was trying to explain 'both sides' clearly
( of an issue, if I did not know what was correct)
and then show I would I try to find the truth.....
so thus I was showing how one could misinterpret a scripture
( take it out of context)....but then, find the errors in order to find the truth.....
Going back to the original question you asked, about how would I discern a Biblical principal if I did not know the answer.
Anyway, I think I totally blew that!! oye vey
Oh.........
about the post
I forgot to mention, when I looked in the "history"
it showed 2 posts to FH at exactly the same time.
I am thinking, I had done a partial answer and then got interrupted, left the post in reply
But perhaps when I came back and added more to it ( somehow I opened another window and pasted what I had up to that point, then added the rest
But when I then posted, the computer didn't know which to actually post, but chose the first one?
Nevertheless.....the history showed me posting 2 at exactly the same time ( right down to the same second)
That was how I found the completed post....one was NOT complete but the other was...so I copied it
I now wonder if that may have happened in the past, but I never thought to look at my history to find the missing posts.
I am not sure even why I thought to do it this time.....except maybe having spent that time with you recently on the phone encouraged me to poke at this and that.
I knew I had added more than what showed up and it was really a mystery as to where some of it went.
Anyway, I will re-read what you wrote......but I think I have probably confused this issue more than enough so I will not write any more on it.
Still the information is good to have because I do think there are people who may think that the Trib is mostly about the Jews and saving them ( and the time for the Gentiles is over at that point)....since they might think all the Gentiles who were to be saved where saved.....or something like that.
So IF anyone should ever ask, I will have a much better handle on what I already thought but didn't really have all those scriptures etc. to back it up....
So again thank you.
Now I will continue with Joshua because like I said, I have confused this enough. sigh!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 13, 2019 12:56:41 GMT -5
Since I spent a bit of time on the other question
( and today we will celebrate Devon's birthday,,, which was actually on Tue),
and
will still re-read what you wrote.......
I will just do a small part of Joshua 18
the first half
====================================================================
Allotment of the Remaining Land
There remained among the people of Israel seven tribes whose inheritance had not yet been apportioned.
Having taken care of the 3 1/2 tribes, Joshua turns to the remaining tribes.
I am not exactly sure why Joshua said this:
“How long will you put off going in to take possession of the land, which the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you?"
The reason is because I don't think the boundaries had yet been decided.
In any case, Joshua sounds frustrated with them.
So 3 men from each tribe,
21 in all,
are to go scout out the land and write a description of the land
That is mentioned several times
write out a description.....
and bring it back to Joshua
and he would cast lots to determine what God said, as to what would belong to each tribe.
This was done at Shiloh.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 14, 2019 16:00:15 GMT -5
2nd half of Joshua 18
The Inheritance for Benjamin
This 'seemed' to be a pretty straight forward listing of the boundary ( to the North, East, South, and West) and the cities.
I feel like I am missing something. I know this was important then, and even now for Israel ( maybe not by tribe, but rather what the land and it's total boundaries, that God gave Israel and even in the future.
I did notice it was lacking the part: they did not drive out --------.
Maybe you have something to add that I am missing.
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Post by Cindy on Jul 15, 2019 9:54:50 GMT -5
I think you misunderstood, maybe, what I was saying.
You had asked, I 'think',
how would I discern the truth of some scripture, If it was not clear to me.
So I was thinking about MacArthur.... and pets in or not in Heaven..
( which you explained)
But when I mentioned Amir....I was not saying I agreed with his thoughts on the Trib being mainly for the Jews.
I was using it,
as IF,
I did not know the answer....
and when I presented how I 'thought',
that, maybe ..
( but I am not sure)
how he 'might' think that.....
I was not saying that was what I thought....
I was using it, as IF I did not know....
going back to your original question,
of how could I then find the truth of scripture,
concerning a question, if I did not know the answer.....
So I was writing as IF I was not sure if the trib
( and Jacob's trouble)....
was it for the Jews only or mainly.....
or for everybody to be,,,, or could be,,, saved at that time)
And then I tried to look at as many scriptures to see if I could find God's truth.....
As far as I had gotten,
still going on the basis,
I did not have any idea as to the absolute correct answer to that
and how would I find out.....
I was so far.....mostly coming to the conviction it was for everyone,
but could not yet make a solid conclusion ( I was going to go on, but had concluded for sure, that NOW is the time of salvation for the Gentiles and Jews ( tho most will be saved during the Tribulation)
that Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation for sure, I had begun to see and point out scriptures that said that...but was going to see if there were even more
However,
thank you for adding everything you wrote today....
I have read it all, and will re-read it.
I did write that, actually,
I always thought it was for both Jews and Gentiles to be saved during the Tribulation.
And I do not think every Bible teacher is 100 percent correct all the time ....
I suppose even MacArthur has been wrong about something?
( I could only think of the pets in Heaven issue, and that was my misunderstanding what he actually said).
And so, I am not sure if I have not also misunderstood what Amir said also......
but since you did not hear what he said ( like you did MacArthur) and could not explain because you did not hear it....
then, I went with it 'as if' it was as I thought,
that really was what he said
because he too is not 100 percent correct
and that could be where he is
confused....maybe being an Israeli Jewish Christian has something to do with it.....I have no idea tho....
as I may have even misunderstood what he said, like I did MacArthur.
Still, I was trying to explain 'both sides' clearly
( of an issue, if I did not know what was correct)
and then show I would I try to find the truth.....
so thus I was showing how one could misinterpret a scripture
( take it out of context)....but then, find the errors in order to find the truth.....
Going back to the original question you asked, about how would I discern a Biblical principal if I did not know the answer.
Anyway, I think I totally blew that!! oye vey
Oh.........
about the post
I forgot to mention, when I looked in the "history"
it showed 2 posts to FH at exactly the same time.
I am thinking, I had done a partial answer and then got interrupted, left the post in reply
But perhaps when I came back and added more to it ( somehow I opened another window and pasted what I had up to that point, then added the rest
But when I then posted, the computer didn't know which to actually post, but chose the first one?
Nevertheless.....the history showed me posting 2 at exactly the same time ( right down to the same second)
That was how I found the completed post....one was NOT complete but the other was...so I copied it
I now wonder if that may have happened in the past, but I never thought to look at my history to find the missing posts.
I am not sure even why I thought to do it this time.....except maybe having spent that time with you recently on the phone encouraged me to poke at this and that.
I knew I had added more than what showed up and it was really a mystery as to where some of it went.
Anyway, I will re-read what you wrote......but I think I have probably confused this issue more than enough so I will not write any more on it.
Still the information is good to have because I do think there are people who may think that the Trib is mostly about the Jews and saving them ( and the time for the Gentiles is over at that point)....since they might think all the Gentiles who were to be saved where saved.....or something like that.
So IF anyone should ever ask, I will have a much better handle on what I already thought but didn't really have all those scriptures etc. to back it up....
So again thank you.
Now I will continue with Joshua because like I said, I have confused this enough. sigh! |
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Post by Cindy on Jul 15, 2019 10:12:03 GMT -5
back to Joshua
Chapter 15
Which gives a very detailed description of the exact boundaries of Judah's land.
it is kind of crazy to think some people don't think the Jews every had the land when it is so well defined here thousands of years ago!
Then starting with verse 17 we get to Caleb who was to get a portion among the people of Judah....and drove out from there the three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak.
Then we come to his daughter and how she asks of her father a field and he grants it...
As so often does our Father in heaven ( if it is the best thing for us at that time....but we surely can ask)!
Then is a listing of the cities, in the South, one of them named Ziklag
( I am not sure if this is the same Ziklag, that was in the news 2 days ago...saying they had found this city....or at least, a city by that name),
29 cities in all
Then in the lowlands
The Hill country also.
And finally the ones in the wilderness are listed ( one is interestingly called: the City of Salt)
The last sentence is a problem tho:
But the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the people of Judah could not drive out, so the Jebusites dwell with the people of Judah at Jerusalem to this day".
Like we talked about the results of not eliminating all of them.
And I am sure people will say that would be genocide...the very thing people have tried to do concerning the Jews from practically day one. So why is it wrong if its the Jews but okay or even God condoned with all of these people.
It was not an issue of 'race' with the pagan people, but of gross sin, rebellion, paganism etc.
As you mentioned if the had all been killed the babies and children would have gone straight to Heaven, but instead millions upon millions have instead gone to hell.
People try to eliminate the Jews based on race, envy, etc. but underlining that, it also is a 'spiritual' issue, but because satan wanted to stop Jesus from being born, and ever since it seems the devil has had it in for the Jews ( and Christians).
Joshua 16, 17
The Allotment for Ephraim and Manasseh
Verse 10 says:
However, they did not drive out the Canaanites who lived in Gezer, so the Canaanites have lived in the midst of Ephraim to this day but have been made to do forced labor.
It seems like they could have driven them out, if they were made to do force labor, so it seems like disobedience to God....again.
Joshua 17
It seems like Manasseh the first born received a bigger portion, being first born?
What is interesting is 5 woman ( there were no sons) petition Joshua for land and are granted it.
And yet again we come to:
"12 Yet the people of Manasseh could not take possession of those cities, but the Canaanites persisted in dwelling in that land. 13 Now when the people of Israel grew strong, they put the Canaanites to forced labor, but did not utterly drive them out."
Which seems odd, because it they could put them to forced labor, why could they not utterly drive them out?
Then the people of Joseph complained that they had only received one lot and they were a large group of people.
So he gives them permission to clear the forests.
But they grumble about that.
I am reminded to be always grateful for what God blesses me with. I remember hearing somewhere that if God gives us a gift and we complain that its not big enough, or expensive enough or whatever....well if we gave our child a gift and they threw it on the floor in a rage like that...we would not be so inclined to hurry and give them the even better gift we had actually gotten them....and perhaps God as our Father, might also do the same....until we got an attitude adjustment of gratitude.
Besides these folks were many and had great power, they just needed to use a little elbow grease ( as my mom used to say....not sure if there ever was a 'real' elbow grease LOL)
Anyway, with some effort they could extend their border but they rather complain and make excuses it seemed?
Yes, I need to 'count my blessings and name them one by one, so that I will see what the Lord has done for me!!
Since I spent a bit of time on the other question
( and today we will celebrate Devon's birthday,,, which was actually on Tue),
and
will still re-read what you wrote.......
I will just do a small part of Joshua 18
the first half
====================================================================
Allotment of the Remaining Land
There remained among the people of Israel seven tribes whose inheritance had not yet been apportioned.
Having taken care of the 3 1/2 tribes, Joshua turns to the remaining tribes.
I am not exactly sure why Joshua said this:
“How long will you put off going in to take possession of the land, which the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you?"
The reason is because I don't think the boundaries had yet been decided.
In any case, Joshua sounds frustrated with them.
So 3 men from each tribe,
21 in all,
are to go scout out the land and write a description of the land
That is mentioned several times
write out a description.....
and bring it back to Joshua
and he would cast lots to determine what God said, as to what would belong to each tribe.
This was done at Shiloh.
2nd half of Joshua 18
The Inheritance for Benjamin
This 'seemed' to be a pretty straight forward listing of the boundary ( to the North, East, South, and West) and the cities.
I feel like I am missing something. I know this was important then, and even now for Israel ( maybe not by tribe, but rather what the land and it's total boundaries, that God gave Israel and even in the future.
I did notice it was lacking the part: they did not drive out --------.
Maybe you have something to add that I am missing.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 15, 2019 10:47:05 GMT -5
Well, I am sure glad you reminded me of what you 'actually' asked LOL
Because, I was thinking, that maybe I should have chosen to use the three different views on when the rapture will be:
post trib rapture ( which I actually thought was right in the very beginning,
but soon was convicted of Pre-tribulation rapture....
and then.... I heard some actually believe in a mid rapture.
But....I was thinking I should explain all 3 and the verses the use ( or neglect to use).....
Which was not want you asked at all.
Oh well onward in Joshua.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 15, 2019 11:11:29 GMT -5
Joshua 19
Simeon
It's kind of interesting some complained the did not have enough, and yet Judah was willing to give part of it's inheritance because their allotment was actually tooooo much!
v.9 The inheritance of the people of Simeon formed part of the territory of the people of Judah. Because the portion of the people of Judah was too large for them, the people of Simeon obtained an inheritance in the midst of their inheritance.
Another thing that was interesting was having an inheritance in the midst of their inheritance.....it reminds me of us Gentiles having our inheritance in the middle of the Jews, kind of
( thinking of a spiritual one tho).
Then comes Zebulun which seems pretty straight forward boundaries....tho there seemed smaller than some...not sure why
Actually, several seemed smaller and others larger ( perhaps because they had more or less people).
Then The Inheritance for Issachar.....which also seemed smallish
Then The Inheritance for Asher....which seemed to get a lot of the coast!!
The Inheritance for Naphtali.....For all of these..... I wish I could listen to Amir pronounce all the names correctly LOL
The Inheritance for Dan
I am not sure I understand exactly what happened with Dan.....it sounds like they lost some of their Inheritance and went and claimed something else???
"When the territory of the people of Dan was lost to them, the people of Dan went up and fought against Leshem, and after capturing it and striking it with the sword they took possession of it and settled in it, calling Leshem, Dan, after the name of Dan their ancestor".
And finally The Inheritance for Joshua.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 16, 2019 9:45:19 GMT -5
Joshua 20
Cities of Refuge, not to be confused with sanctuary cities in our modern day USA!
God had first talked to Moses about them and now to Joshua.
So I think Moses picked the 3 East of the Jordan River and Joshua 3 West of the river.
There purpose was to have safety ( until a trial) assuming the accidentally killed a person.
So an obvious difference is these had to do with true life and death issues, not about making more money.
These people were safe only if they stayed in the cities ( kind of like we stay safe in Jesus)
Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry point to the meaning of the names of the cities:
Kedesh: sanctified, or holy
Hebron: fellowship
Shechem: burden bearer
Bezer: fortress
Ramoth: heights
Golan: sanctified" or "set apart"
We have all broken God's law and need a place ( really we need Jesus) as a place for safety, and we need to stay with Him, to continue to reap 'eternal' safety.
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Post by Cindy on Jul 16, 2019 11:45:25 GMT -5
Well, I am sure glad you reminded me of what you 'actually' asked LOL
Because, I was thinking, that maybe I should have chosen to use the three different views on when the rapture will be:
post trib rapture ( which I actually thought was right in the very beginning,
but soon was convicted of Pre-tribulation rapture....
and then.... I heard some actually believe in a mid rapture.
But....I was thinking I should explain all 3 and the verses the use ( or neglect to use).....
Which was not want you asked at all.
Oh well onward in Joshua.
You still haven't told me if you truly understand whether or not Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation.....
Joshua 19
Simeon
It's kind of interesting some complained the did not have enough, and yet Judah was willing to give part of it's inheritance because their allotment was actually tooooo much!
v.9 The inheritance of the people of Simeon formed part of the territory of the people of Judah. Because the portion of the people of Judah was too large for them, the people of Simeon obtained an inheritance in the midst of their inheritance.
Another thing that was interesting was having an inheritance in the midst of their inheritance.....it reminds me of us Gentiles having our inheritance in the middle of the Jews, kind of
( thinking of a spiritual one tho).
Then comes Zebulun which seems pretty straight forward boundaries....tho there seemed smaller than some...not sure why
Actually, several seemed smaller and others larger ( perhaps because they had more or less people).
Then The Inheritance for Issachar.....which also seemed smallish
Then The Inheritance for Asher....which seemed to get a lot of the coast!!
The Inheritance for Naphtali.....For all of these..... I wish I could listen to Amir pronounce all the names correctly LOL
The Inheritance for Dan
I am not sure I understand exactly what happened with Dan.....it sounds like they lost some of their Inheritance and went and claimed something else???
"When the territory of the people of Dan was lost to them, the people of Dan went up and fought against Leshem, and after capturing it and striking it with the sword they took possession of it and settled in it, calling Leshem, Dan, after the name of Dan their ancestor".
And finally The Inheritance for Joshua.
Joshua 20
Cities of Refuge, not to be confused with sanctuary cities in our modern day USA!
God had first talked to Moses about them and now to Joshua.
So I think Moses picked the 3 East of the Jordan River and Joshua 3 West of the river.
There purpose was to have safety ( until a trial) assuming the accidentally killed a person.
So an obvious difference is these had to do with true life and death issues, not about making more money.
These people were safe only if they stayed in the cities ( kind of like we stay safe in Jesus)
Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry point to the meaning of the names of the cities:
Kedesh: sanctified, or holy
Hebron: fellowship
Shechem: burden bearer
Bezer: fortress
Ramoth: heights
Golan: sanctified" or "set apart"
We have all broken God's law and need a place ( really we need Jesus) as a place for safety, and we need to stay with Him, to continue to reap 'eternal' safety.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 17, 2019 11:48:16 GMT -5
Joshua 21
Cities and Pasture lands Allotted to Levi
This is going to sound a bit dumb, because I know the priests needed a place to sleep, eat etc. But it seemed a little confusing to me, because I 'thought' they were not to inherit any land.
Well in any case, the heads of the fathers' houses of the Levites came to petition Joshua because, in fact,:
"The Lord commanded through Moses that we be given cities to dwell in, along with their pasture lands for our livestock:
So the tribes were divided up into sets of 3 ( I think) and gave various cities to the Kohathites, the Gershonites, the Merarites, and the rest of the Kohathities.
And then the listing of the cities and who gave it to which group of priests etc. in all forty-eight cities with their pasture lands.
wonder if any of the people resented having to give up some of the cities they thought were theirs?
Greed is not easy to overcome, but if you know the land is not yours....but all of it is God's that could help, I think.
And then:
"43 Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there.
44 And the Lord gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the Lord had given all their enemies into their hands.
45 Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.
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Post by Cindy on Jul 18, 2019 11:25:40 GMT -5
Before we start, I wanted to mention something Wiersbe said about the last verse on the last chapter you did: “Any of the Israelites or any alien living among them who killed someone accidentally could flee to these designated cities and not be killed by the avenger of blood prior to standing trial before the assembly.” (Joshua 20:9) There's also an application to the nation of Israel. The nation was guilty of killing the Lord Jesus Christ, but it was a sin of ignorance on the part of the people (Acts 3:12–18). When Jesus prayed on the cross, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34), He was declaring them guilty of manslaughter rather than murder (1 Cor. 2:7–8). The way was open for their forgiveness, and God gave the nation nearly 40 years to repent before He brought judgment. This same principle applied to the Apostle Paul (“Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.” 1 Timothy 1:13) ). However, no lost sinner today can plead ignorance, because God has declared the whole world guilty and without excuse (Rom. 3:9–19). Be Strong.
Joshua 21
Cities and Pasture lands Allotted to Levi
This is going to sound a bit dumb, because I know the priests needed a place to sleep, eat etc. But it seemed a little confusing to me, because I 'thought' they were not to inherit any land.
Well in any case, the heads of the fathers' houses of the Levites came to petition Joshua because, in fact,:
"The Lord commanded through Moses that we be given cities to dwell in, along with their pasture lands for our livestock:
So the tribes were divided up into sets of 3 ( I think) and gave various cities to the Kohathites, the Gershonites, the Merarites, and the rest of the Kohathities.
And then the listing of the cities and who gave it to which group of priests etc. in all forty-eight cities with their pasture lands.
wonder if any of the people resented having to give up some of the cities they thought were theirs?
Greed is not easy to overcome, but if you know the land is not yours....but all of it is God's that could help, I think.
And then:
"43 Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there.
44 And the Lord gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the Lord had given all their enemies into their hands.
45 Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.
Again the last verse is very special and important: “Not one of all the LORD’s good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.” (Joshua 21:45) Remember the tribe of Dan, who we were told had problems taking their land, so they went elsewhere? I believe I told you it was because they were complaining and lazy that they had the problems. Well this last verse shows us that it wasn't the Lord's fault they had problems. If they had done as they were told they'd have taken the land they were given. The problem was that they didn't want it! They decided the grass was greener elsewhere.
But this verse is also important to us. The Lord always keeps His promises, every single one, and every single word of each one. (and that's what He expects from us as well!). We can trust everything we read in His Word, knowing absolutely that it will be done just exactly as He says. Therefore, any promise that has not yet come true for us or for Israel, WILL come true eventually. We know when Israel's promises will come true - in the Millennial Kingdom. We even know when many of ours will come true. But the ones that don't have a date, or are more general, such as “You will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast, because he trusts in you.” (Isaiah 26:3) are always true as long as the conditions He gives us are followed. In this one the condition is total trust in Him. Or: “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.” (John 14:27) Again, Jesus tells us we must have total trust. “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 4:6–7) And again we're told the same thing.
God understands that we may have concerns, that's normal. But we shouldn't fear anything. Instead we should tell Him about the trouble or concern, “being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.” (Romans 4:21) When we realize that, and fully put our trust in Him, knowing that He sees us as righteous in Christ, knowing that He really does love us more then we can even imagine, then, our hearts will be at peace and the only fear we'll ever know is the fear of letting Him down or not obeying Him! We need to always remember that “nothing is impossible with God.” (Luke 1:37) And know that as our faith grows through reading and reflecting on His Word and prayer, that God says, “Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”” (Luke 1:45) We also know that the Lord never commands us to do something that's impossible. So people who think or say that it's impossible not to ever be worried or afraid are believing a lie of Satan's. God tells us how to accomplish this so called impossible thing. He tells us what to allow into our minds, how to control our thoughts and that we're to be in His Word, thinking about it, talking about it, and in prayer as much as we possibly can be. The more we are, the fewer times of anxiety we'll have, the fewer fears we'll have until they're all gone and only the fear of the Lord remains.
One of the biggest problems today is that people don't read or study God's Word and often the ones who do, just do so for a short time as a "duty" so they can check it off their list. They certainly don't reflect on it during the day or talk to the Lord about what they read, telling Him what they think, and asking His views. And they most certainly don't discuss it with family and friends and co workers throughout the day! Yet, the only times that Israel felt God's abundant blessings and did well, when there was no idolatry, that's what they did. Even during the times of idolatry, those who were among the remnant did those things.
“Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.” (Deuteronomy 4:9)
“Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.” (Deuteronomy 6:5–9) Tie them as symbols on your heads etc, was not meant literally. God was telling them to reflect on them all the time, all through the day, no matter where they were. The Israelite was to continually meditate upon and be directed by the commandments that God had given to him. Later in Jewish history, this phrase was taken literally and the people tied phylacteries (boxes containing these verses) to their hands and foreheads with thongs of leather. The MacArthur study Bible
“Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.” (Joshua 1:8)
“We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.” (Hebrews 2:1)
“When you walk, they will guide you; when you sleep, they will watch over you; when you awake, they will speak to you.” (Proverbs 6:22)
I could go on for pages and pages, doing nothing more then copying verses that say these same things, verses from both the old and new testaments. It's amazing how often God tells us this. You'd think that people would get that it must be pretty important. But their eyes are blind. I honestly think that's mainly because they're not seeking the Lord with all their heart, but only part of it. Some or most of their heart is still caught up in earthly things. I know that's why I went astray when I was younger. I was going to church every Sunday, but I didn't live my faith at all. I prayed when I needed help (which was often since the Lord was disciplining me and I didn't even realize that!) I had stopped reading my Bible. (couldn't very well do that and continue in my sins could I?) It wasn't until my life was so broken and destroyed that I truly sought God with all my heart, mind and strength. I wanted Him and His Truth - finally! and was no longer interested in what the world had to say about anything. I had close to 40 years of experience with the world and knew it had none of the answers I needed; the worlds answers were nothing but gibberish. That's why when I see the people around me doing the very same thing, it breaks my heart; I know they're going down a road that leads to disaster and ruin and heartbreak.
I actually wrote all this as an encouragement for me as well as for you and anyone else who may read this. I needed this reminder today as well. As Paul tells us, “Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you.” (Philippians 3:1) And we all need that safeguard! Peter also said it, “So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,” (2 Peter 1:12–13) This one to me says it all: “Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking.” (2 Peter 3:1) We always need that reminder, at least I do! Paul tells those who are living their faith, to continue, and to do it "more and more". (1 Thessalonians 4:1) That way we won't stop growing. And that's just before he says our favorite verse,  : “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.” (Philippians 4:8) I was thinking about this verse the other day and realized that each of those things describe the Lord and also His Word! I was reading psalm 119 at the time that came to me. Anyway, hope you don't mind my rambling, but I needed this today. Thank you!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 18, 2019 13:13:34 GMT -5
Thank you so much....I am glad you were in a rambling mood!! LOL
I needed to hear all of that also.
I even now have a few days where Bible Study leans a little to being a 'duty'....especially, if I have a ton of 'things' to do.
That is me putting the world ahead of God.
Although I always find comfort, instruction,prayer, worship etc etc. once I start.
Thank you for explaining about the cities for the Levites. That really helped!!! :-)
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 18, 2019 14:19:51 GMT -5
Joshua 22
The Eastern Tribes Return Home
Joshua praises them for their commitment to God, Moses, to himself, and to their brother Israelites.
He reminds them to be very careful to observe the commandment and the law, to love the Lord your God, and to walk in all his ways and to keep his commandments and to cling to him and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.
And then he blesses them, and tells them to share all the wealth and much livestock, with silver, gold, bronze, and iron, and with much clothing, they had gained from their enemies.
Then we come to verse 10
The Eastern Tribes' Altar of Witness
The people on the Eastern side of Jordan built a great altar, and the people of Israel on the Western side heard about it and gather together for war, thinking the Eastern side were rebels against God.
But so that that they might not do anything rashly, they sent Phinehas and ten chiefs, one from each tribe, to obtain an explanation of their motives in erecting the altar.
And they ask the Eastern group: "‘What is this breach of faith that you have committed against the God of Israel in turning away this day from following the Lord by building yourselves an altar this day in rebellion against the Lord?"
I guess I can understand the misunderstanding in a way, but why was it not considered 'church planting' like what we Christians do today? Having only one altar that people must come to reminds me of how the Arabs must go to Mecca and so on.
I get that the idea is having separate priests, altars, etc. could have been in opposition to God, but what I am missing is the why was it so and not like Church planting. Perhaps because sacrifices were offered and we do not kill animals and burn them on an altar?
So God made a choice where such sacrifices were to be made and not anywhere else?
Anyway.....then Phinehas suggests that f the land of your possession is unclean, pass over into the Lord's land where the Lord's tabernacle stands.....giving them a solution.
But they answered and explained it was for not religious purpose, but ratheras a testimony that they were one people with those on the west of Jordan, having the same religious beliefs.
This goes to show how misunderstandings can happen and that we should first find out the truth before acting rashly and 'going to war'.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 19, 2019 6:08:37 GMT -5
Joshua 23
Now that Joshua is very old he has some Godly advise to give.
He first of all reminds them what God has done for them....I know I never do this enough and this is a good reminder. I am good at asking for things, help etc. and I do count my blessing from time to time.....but there is no question, I need to Thank the Lord much much more.
Not only has God done all that for them, He will continue.
LOL when I got to verse 6...."Therefore, be very strong ..."
I thought oh-oh
Thinking mainly of physical strength.... Opps I would not be doing so well there either
But no....it means something actually even harder ( if we try it in our own strength)
" to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, turning aside from it neither to the right hand nor to the left"
Also not to mix with the nations still among them, lest they end up worshiping their 'gods' ( and many of them did sadly....and so many in our nation have turned from their Christian roots to all sorts of other 'gods'. For the same reason they were not to marry with them.
And they would also be a snare and a trap, a whip, and thorns in their eyes, until they would perish off this ground that the Lord their God had given them.
All that God had promised them, had come to pass....but now they had a choice
to have God's continued help, or go their own way and reap evil.
Sadly, I think this has been our country decision also.....the reap evil, as a result of turning away from our Lord and Savior....and I fear it will only get worse, as it seems to be doing daily.
And, I am barely looking at the news....but I do hear from here and there.
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Post by Cindy on Jul 19, 2019 11:28:01 GMT -5
Thank you so much....I am glad you were in a rambling mood!! LOL
I needed to hear all of that also.
I even now have a few days where Bible Study leans a little to being a 'duty'....especially, if I have a ton of 'things' to do.
That is me putting the world ahead of God.
Although I always find comfort, instruction,prayer, worship etc etc. once I start.
Thank you for explaining about the cities for the Levites. That really helped!!! :-)
Yes, I think the Lord allows those kind of days to happen to see what we'll do. Of course He already knows, but what He really wants is to show us where we're weak and where we're strong, so we'll know what to guard against and where we need to work harder. Just like recently Bruce had a doctors appointment at 7:30 in the morning. It was a very important appointment so there was no way I could get out of going and there was no way to get a later appointment. That was pure hell for me since mornings are the worst time of day for me and of course it interrupts my time with the Lord. I had to make a choice. I had to go with Bruce, but also had to choose who I'd handle my time with the Lord. I could have done it when we got home, but I knew Bruce would need me with him then too and I'd have my regular chores to do and wouldn't really be able to sit and concentrate. So the only way I could have any time with the Lord and His Word would be to get up even earlier then normal. So I got up at 4 am and that gave me 3 and a half hours to spend with Him before we had to leave. I also wore my clothes to bed so I wouldn't have to get dressed in the morning. Since I sleep sitting up and don't move around, there was no chance of them getting wrinkled or anything, so why not? Although I was very tired that day, it turned out to be a good day and I was able to enjoy it once we got back home. I felt good too because I knew I'd done well in making sure I'd had time in God's Word, and didn't shorten the time with Him by much just because the world and life in general was butting in. It felt like the Lord was smiling on me all day!   I want to make sure that the Lord comes first in my life and that my love for Him shows in the choices I make, even though no one except the Lord will know about it.
Joshua 22
The Eastern Tribes Return Home
Joshua praises them for their commitment to God, Moses, to himself, and to their brother Israelites.
He reminds them to be very careful to observe the commandment and the law, to love the Lord your God, and to walk in all his ways and to keep his commandments and to cling to him and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.
And then he blesses them, and tells them to share all the wealth and much livestock, with silver, gold, bronze, and iron, and with much clothing, they had gained from their enemies.
Then we come to verse 10
The Eastern Tribes' Altar of Witness
The people on the Eastern side of Jordan built a great altar, and the people of Israel on the Western side heard about it and gather together for war, thinking the Eastern side were rebels against God.
But so that that they might not do anything rashly, they sent Phinehas and ten chiefs, one from each tribe, to obtain an explanation of their motives in erecting the altar.
And they ask the Eastern group: "‘What is this breach of faith that you have committed against the God of Israel in turning away this day from following the Lord by building yourselves an altar this day in rebellion against the Lord?"
I guess I can understand the misunderstanding in a way, but why was it not considered 'church planting' like what we Christians do today? Having only one altar that people must come to reminds me of how the Arabs must go to Mecca and so on.
I get that the idea is having separate priests, altars, etc. could have been in opposition to God, but what I am missing is the why was it so and not like Church planting. Perhaps because sacrifices were offered and we do not kill animals and burn them on an altar?
So God made a choice where such sacrifices were to be made and not anywhere else?
Anyway.....then Phinehas suggests that f the land of your possession is unclean, pass over into the Lord's land where the Lord's tabernacle stands.....giving them a solution.
But they answered and explained it was for not religious purpose, but ratheras a testimony that they were one people with those on the west of Jordan, having the same religious beliefs.
This goes to show how misunderstandings can happen and that we should first find out the truth before acting rashly and 'going to war'.
This was not simply because an ordinary river would separate the Eastern from the Western tribes, for the Jordan is not an ordinary river. Mountains on each side rise to heights above 2,000 feet and the Jordan Valley nestled in between is in effect a great trench 5 to 13 miles wide. During a part of the year the intense heat greatly discourages travelers. This then was a very pronounced river boundary and may have contributed to the fear of these tribesmen that they and their brethren would permanently drift apart. Out of sight is often out of mind. So you see, their consciences suddenly began to kick in and they began to realize that their decision to take this land might not have been a good one. Which it wasn't, it was a sin. But instead of repenting and asking God what they should do, they figured it out for themselves. By building this huge altar, they'd actually put another big temptation in the way of themselves and their descendants. Of course they agreed that by they'd attended the feasts in Jerusalem, and obey His laws. And that worked for awhile..... However, as we know, that altar eventually became a snare to them. (their descendants.) And going to war was the correct thing to do! The other tribe should have repented and decided to take the inheritance God had for them instead of continuing their rebellion.
Let me share what Wiersbe says about this too: There’s no question that Canaan was God’s appointed land for His people; anything short of Canaan wasn’t what He wanted for them. The two and a half tribes made their decision, not on the basis of spiritual values, but on the basis of material gain; for the land east of the Jordan was ideal for raising cattle. I’m reminded of the decision Lot made when he pitched his tent toward Sodom (Gen. 13:10–11). In both instances, the people walked by sight and not by faith. By making this decision, the people of Reuben, Gad, and Manasseh divided the nation and separated themselves from the blessings of the land of Canaan. They were farther away from the tabernacle and closer to the enemy. They became what I call “borderline believers.” You’ll recall that Egypt represents the world and Canaan the believer’s inheritance in Christ. The wilderness wanderings represent the experience of believers who don’t enter by faith into the rest God has for them (Heb. 3–4). The two and a half tribes portray believers who have experienced the blessings and battles of Canaan—their inheritance in Christ—but prefer to live on the border, outside God’s appointed place of blessing.
God had instructed the Jews to destroy the altars of the heathen nations in Canaan and not to build altars of their own. There was to be one altar of sacrifice at the one sanctuary that God had appointed (Deut. 12; Lev. 17:8–9). Phinehas called what they had done a trespass (vv. 16, 20, 22 [transgression, KJV], 31), which means “an act of treachery.” Joshua had commended these two and a half tribes for their loyalty, and now they had proved faithless. They had turned away (vv. 16, 18, 23, 29), which meant they were no longer following the Lord (see v. 5). This word carries the idea of “backsliding,” gradually moving away from the Lord.
The strongest word used was rebel (vv. 16, 18–19 [twice], 22, 29), which means deliberately resisting God’s will and disobeying His Law. In building an unauthorized altar, these two and a half tribes were guilty of apostasy. “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry” (1 Sam. 15:23). ...
Of course, the fact that the Lord knows our hearts, and that we’ve taken an oath, is no guarantee that our actions are right, because we don’t know our own hearts (Jer. 17:9). All sorts of questionable activities can be shielded by, “But the Lord knows my heart!” Paul gives us the right approach in 2 Corinthians 8:21; “For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men” (NIV). When a whole nation misinterprets what is supposed to be a good deed, and it brings them to the brink of war, then there must be something wrong with that deed.
It’s interesting that the Transjordanic tribes pointed to the children as their concern. But it wasn’t their children who would ask, “What have we to do with the Lord God of Israel?” No, their children would be provoked by the children of the tribes in Canaan! Reuben, Gad, and Manasseh were not even living in the land of God’s choice, yet they feared lest the children across the river would lead their children astray! It seems to me that the danger was just the opposite.
Not only did the Transjordanic tribes accuse their fellow Jews of having worldly children, but they even accused God of creating the problem in the first place! “For the Lord has made the Jordan a border between you and us” (Josh. 22:25, NKJV). No! They were the ones who had made the Jordan River the dividing line! In choosing to live east of the Jordan, the two and a half tribes separated themselves from their own people and from the land God had given to all of them. They put their cattle ahead of their children and their fellow Jews, but they blamed God and the other tribes for the problem that they created. ...
The delegation rejoiced that the purpose of the altar was for witness and not sacrifice, and this seemed to settle the matter. They rejoiced that God wouldn’t send judgment to the land (v. 31) and that there would be no civil war in Israel (v. 33). But the nation was divided, in spite of the “altar of witness.” Like Abraham and Lot (Gen. 13), part of the nation had a spiritual outlook while the other part was concerned with material things.
“Peace at any price” isn’t God’s will for His people. This decision in Gilead was made on the basis of human wisdom and not God’s truth. “But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable” (James 3:17). The peace that God’s people achieve at the price of purity and truth is only a dangerous truce that eventually explodes into painful division. There is always a place in human relations for loving conciliation, but never for cowardly compromise. “I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality” (1 Tim. 5:21, NKJV).
The Transjordanic tribes named their altar “A witness between us that the Lord is God” (NIV). But if the Lord is God, why didn’t they obey Him and live in the land He had appointed for them? The stones may have been a witness, but the people certainly were not. Surrounded by heathen nations and separated from their brothers and sisters across the river, these tribes quickly fell into idolatry and were eventually taken by Assyria (1 Chron. 5:25–26). Be Strong.
It really shows what happens when we refuse God's best for the worlds, (like Lot did) and when we refuse to obey God fully and look for "loopholes" instead. (like many do today about things like divorce, abortion, submitting to their husbands, etc.). These tribes and Lot both were looking at material things, instead of spiritual. They enjoyed the world instead of enjoying a relationship with the Lord. They preferred this short life to an eternal life with the Lord, although of course they never actually thought of it that way. It's ironic too because they could have had even more materially, if they'd accepted the inheritance God had for them instead of choosing what they thought was so great. It also shows the importance of who you allow into your life. Bad company corrupts us!
It reminds me of my own life. All of my adult life I chased after my dream of being a Mom and raising my children with a good husband, settled down in my own home. But because I rebelled against the Lord, my dreams didn't come true. Oh I was married (a number of times!) and of course had children, but my husbands all turned into the scum of the earth and my children were molested and hurt in the process. We moved about every 3 months because my husbands would quit working within months after we were married and we couldn't pay the rent. And it continued like that until I returned to the Lord after moving to NH. (and that's not telling anywhere near all that happened!) Finally I had a home, and eventually a man that treated me and my children the way the Lord intended.
Joshua 23
Now that Joshua is very old he has some Godly advise to give.
He first of all reminds them what God has done for them....I know I never do this enough and this is a good reminder. I am good at asking for things, help etc. and I do count my blessing from time to time.....but there is no question, I need to Thank the Lord much much more.
Not only has God done all that for them, He will continue.
LOL when I got to verse 6...."Therefore, be very strong ..."
I thought oh-oh
Thinking mainly of physical strength.... Opps I would not be doing so well there either
But no....it means something actually even harder ( if we try it in our own strength)
" to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, turning aside from it neither to the right hand nor to the left"
Also not to mix with the nations still among them, lest they end up worshiping their 'gods' ( and many of them did sadly....and so many in our nation have turned from their Christian roots to all sorts of other 'gods'. For the same reason they were not to marry with them.
And they would also be a snare and a trap, a whip, and thorns in their eyes, until they would perish off this ground that the Lord their God had given them.
All that God had promised them, had come to pass....but now they had a choice
to have God's continued help, or go their own way and reap evil.
Sadly, I think this has been our country decision also.....the reap evil, as a result of turning away from our Lord and Savior....and I fear it will only get worse, as it seems to be doing daily.
And, I am barely looking at the news....but I do hear from here and there.
Three times in this brief address Joshua called Canaan “this good land” (Joshua 23:13, Joshua 23:15–16). Meditating on the goodness of God is a strong motivation for obedience. James connects the goodness of God with our resisting of temptation (James 1:13–17), and Nathan took the same approach when he confronted King David with his sins (2 Sam. 12:1–15). It was not his own badness but his father’s goodness that brought the prodigal son to repentance and then back home (Luke 15:17). “The goodness of God leads you to repentance” (Rom. 2:4, NKJV). The danger is that the material blessings from the Lord can so possess our hearts that we focus on the gifts and forget the Giver, and this leads to sin (Deut. 8). Be Strong.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 20, 2019 11:18:54 GMT -5
That was soooo perfect in helping me understand!!!
That they choose to remain outside the promised land.....for material reasons. And the excuse about the alter being for questioning children, if they had cared sooo much about their children then they would have gone to the promised land.
oh I was so amazed at what you said about the Jordan amd mountains on each side ( I always thought of it running thru vast area of flat desert.....)
So I went and looked at photo images.....and Lo and Behold ( as if you were not LOL) You were right!!! :-)
How amazing, so different from my 'thinking'!!
Also:
“Peace at any price” isn’t God’s will for His people".
That was so helpful too....I was thinking:
yeah!!! war was averted....
but no....only delayed and made things in the end worse.
I guess, it was good they went to ask before shooting arrows....
Maybe, that holds true....
but
maybe not,
they knew the altar was against the Lord....they really really already knew that.
Thank you for telling me a bit about your own situation in the past. It is so easy for me to think at times that only I made such bad choices ( and I did do that.....bad choices full of sin).
so this sentence was also an eye opener!!!
"It was not his own badness but his father’s goodness that brought the prodigal son to repentance and then back home
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,383
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Post by fearnot on Jul 20, 2019 12:43:03 GMT -5
Joshua 24
The Covenant Renewal at Shechem
Joshua reminds the people of the history of what God had done for the people.
How Abraham and Nahor worshiped idols, how he brought Abraham to land of Canaan,
blesses him with children and grandchildren etc. Israel's time in Egypt , God's miracles and bringing them out by Moses.
God gave them the land,
and these interesting but slightly mysterious words :
"And I sent the hornet before you"
Well hornets are sure scary and their sting is terrible.....
Then comes verse 13
"I gave you a land on which you had not labored and cities that you had not built, and you dwell in them. You eat the fruit of vineyards and olive orchards that you did not plant."
I can see how some unbeliever might point to this verse ( missing the point entirely)
and say
see....the Jews are usurpers.....the land was not theirs!!
Ummmm well no land anywhere is anybody's.....the earth and universe, is God's. He is the owner and he can choose to give whatever portion he wants to whomever He wants, for as long as he wants.
One of the points point is....they did not have to labor....it was a gift.
I have a feeling you might even have a few deeper meanings as well?
Then we come to a 'famous' verse quoted in this section
Choose Whom You Will Serve
15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
The people say that they will serve the Lord
But Joshua replies:
“You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy God.
He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.
20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm and consume you, after having done you good.”
And in fact, in our own strength we cannot really serve the Lord ( we tend to always serve ourselves.....unless we are born again, and even then we don't always serve the Lord but rather self.
But they insist
So Joshua tells them: “Then put away the foreign gods that are among you
Wait....what? They still had foreign gods among them? Is he saying they still have idols? or is he talking about the people around them and 'their' idols?
Anyway the sad thing is this zeal to serve God only lasted a generation or so, at best.
I guess the miracle is our country kind of 'served' the Lord as long as it did.
It's hard to see how fast it is slipping into terrible idolatry, witchcraft, etc etc.
I sometimes feel as my part in the slippage was bigger than I thought at the time ( and I thought absolutely zero about it).
But I must have affected people who affected people and so on, with my hippie dippy life style of drugs, 'free love', rebellion, anything ....but...Christianity and so on.
Then Joshua dies.
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anna
Trials
Posts: 1,995
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Post by anna on Jul 22, 2019 7:39:50 GMT -5
This is from a Bible companion book that I have.
The purpose of Joshua is summarized in 21:43-45, where it tells how God kept his covenant promise to give the land to Israel.
The book recounts God's bringing Israel into the land (chs. 1-5), giving the Israelites victory over the inhabitants of the land (chs. 6-12), and distributing the land among the clans for settlement (chs. 13-22). This is how the land takes on a sacred identity, it's possession is seen as the covenant gift of God, though ultimately it still remains God's land.
The book concludes with a renewal of the covenant (chs. 23-24) as the people publicly and formally acknowledge that God has fulfilled his promises and that they are indebted to him, obliged by covenant to be faithful. The book highlights God's side of the covenant. It shows that God is serious about punishing those deserving of judgement. This is true whether the offenders are Cannanites or Israelites who violate God's commands (ch. 7)
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: “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.” (Philippians 4:8) I was thinking about this verse the other day and realized that each of those things describe the Lord and also His Word! I was reading psalm 119 at the time that came to me. Anyway, hope you don't mind my rambling, but I needed this today. Thank you! 
!!
