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Post by Cindy on Jan 6, 2017 11:38:31 GMT -5
The first thing I want to point out is that the rapture is entirely different from the second coming. At the Rapture, the Lord will not come down to the earth, but instead will call us to join Him in the air above the earth. At the Second Coming, the Lord will be returning riding a white horse and all His angels and all of us who are members of His Body, the Church, will be with Him, also riding horses. Everyone will see the Lord and us at the Second Coming, but we are the only ones who will see Jesus at the Rapture.
This is speaking of the Rapture: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17) Notice that we rise to meet Him, He does not come down all the way to the earth. He does not step foot on the earth, and there is no mention of anyone seeing Him other than us. Note that this does not say anything about the unsaved. Another one is this: “In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” (John 14:2–3) Again notice that we're told that He takes us to be with Him - He is not joining us on the earth. This is obviously only spoken to those who are really saved. It is not speaking to the unsaved at all.
Now, here are some that speak about the Second Coming. The Second Coming will happen at the end of the Tribulation during the last war, the war of Armageddon. Everyone will see Jesus at this time - both the saved and the unsaved will see Him returning to the Earth as it's rightful Lord and King. ““At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:30) Note that the nations will mourn at this time. This is speaking of the Jews mourning because they will finally realize that Jesus is in fact their Messiah and they will realize their sin in not accepting Him. Whenever we see a scripture speaking of the Rapture though, there is only joy, never any mourning or anger or fear.
These next verses show the Second Coming again and tell us that once Jesus has taken care of his enemies and stopped the war of Armageddon, He will be judging the people. When we see a scripture concerning the Rapture, there is no judgment with it, because our sins were already judged when Jesus was on the cross.
“For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.” (Matthew 16:27) ““When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.” (Matthew 25:31) “See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.” (Isaiah 40:10)
Here is another familiar passage that describes the Second Coming: “For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” (Matthew 24:27–31) Note again that everyone all over the world will see the Lord coming when He returns to the Earth. We're told many times concerning the second coming that there will be "signs in the sky" just before He returns. There is never any mention of signs before the Rapture. We are told that at the Second Coming, Jesus will be seen returning in "great power and glory", but when we read about the Rapture, that is never mentioned. At the Rapture, we're simply told that there will be the sound of a trumpet (to call us Home) and that we will rise to meet Him in the air. There is never any mention of the Angels at the Rapture either, but only at the Second Coming.
At the Second Coming, we're often told that the Angels will be with Jesus, as you saw in a number of the scriptures I've already posted, but we are also told that we will be with Him! “They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”” (Revelation 17:14) This scripture is speaking of Armageddon, because that will be happening when we return with Jesus and the Angels at the Second Coming. Don't worry though, we will not have to fight anyone. Jesus takes care of that by Himself. Here is another passage speaking of the Second Coming. it shows Jesus on a white horse, and tells how He will make war on all His enemies on the earth. Then it says that the "armies of heaven were following Him", also riding on horses: “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.” (Revelation 19:11–15) Who are the "armies of heaven that are dressed in fine linen, white and clean"? To answer that we just need to look at some verses from a little earlier in the same chapter: “Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)” (Revelation 19:7–8) This tells us that it is the bride of Christ who wears fine linen, white and clean, and those who are truly saved are the bride of Christ!
As you can see then, there is a big difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Neither can be mistaken for the other. Since these last scriptures brought up the fact that all who have been truly saved and are part of the Church, the Body of Christ, are also called "the bride of Christ", I'd like to speak about that a little bit too.
During the time Jesus was here before, a Jewish wedding was very different from anything we have today. Back then, when a man and women were betrothed to each other, or engaged as we call it today, they were legally considered already married. The first part of the wedding was when the bride and groom's parents contracted with each other that their children would be married and the dowry was paid by the groom or his parents. In the 2nd part, the groom had to build a home for his bride, which was either a new home or sometimes was a new room or rooms attached to his parents home. When that home was ready and the grooms father had approved it, then the groom went to claim his bride and carried her away to their new home. (this is illustrated in Matthew 25:1–13) In the 3rd part of the wedding, after they arrived at their new home, there would be a wedding supper which would often last for several days or even a week. (like the one that Jesus did His first miracle at in John 2)
When we are saved and the Holy Spirit is given to us as a guarantee, Jesus is completing the first part of the wedding ceremony with us. (2 Corinthians 5:5) The Second part is when Jesus comes to get us to take us to our Home in Heaven at the Rapture, and then presents us to the Father (Ephesians 5:27) and the Third part will be completed at the wedding supper of the Lamb spoken of in Revelation 19:7–8 which I shared above.
One last thing I'd like to cover so there is no confusion, is about Israel because she is often shown as God's unfaithful wife in the OT and God calls Himself her Husband in many scriptures such as in Jeremiah 3:14. Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel used the image of Israel as an unfaithful wife, showing how severe her idolatry was and that it was the same as spiritual adultery. Jeremiah tells us that her unfaithfulness was so bad that God considered divorcing her for her (spiritual) adultery: “I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.” (Jeremiah 3:8) But God never did divorce Israel, He only separated Himself from her. We know this from Isaiah 50:1 which says: “This is what the LORD says: “Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of my creditors did I sell you? Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.” If God had divorced her, He would have given her the certificate of divorce, but that is never shown, so we know He was only separated from her. But we are frequently told of her punishment for her spiritual adultery and finally we're told that after her punishment that God takes her back, forgiving her and cleansing her from her sin. We know that will happen at the end of the Tribulation.
However, God is not really married to anyone, not to Israel and He will not really be married to us who are called "the bride of Christ" either. He uses the symbol of marriage to show us how close our relationship with Him should be and eventually will be. When you are married to someone, there is no one you love more than them and nothing can replace them in your heart. That's what God's first commandment tells us, that we're to have no one and nothing else before Him. He is to be the most important person in our lives and our relationship to Him is to be the most important thing in our lives. When you're married, you become one flesh with your spouse, and the same is true between us and God when we are saved: we become one with Him because He dwells within us. So please understand that all the talk of marriage, God's wife, and the bride of Christ, are all symbolic of our relationship with Him. God is not marrying two different groups or two different people.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
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Post by fearnot on Jan 7, 2017 12:09:41 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy! Thank was very helpful and cleared up some things very well....like the marriage.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 9, 2017 11:00:19 GMT -5
Thank you Cindy! Thank was very helpful and cleared up some things very well....like the marriage.
What I'd like to do next is show what the bible says will happen in the rapture as opposed to what movies and books show what it will be like. In the books and movies etc.for some reason most show the rapture as being invisible to the unsaved, but that's not what the bible indicates. First let me share the scriptures that describe the rapture itself:
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”” (1 Corinthians 15:51–54)
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
Both of these scripture passages speak of our bodies being changed instantaneously - in the blink of an eye. One second we will be in our normal sin ridden bodies, and the next we will have immortal, incorruptible bodies, without the taint of any sin. We are told that this will happen instantly to the bodies of all who have already died in Christ. Although they are in heaven, they will have an intermediate body, not the perfect body that we will all receive at the rapture. So in heaven, their bodies too will be changed instantaneously and they will suddenly find themselves back on the earth rising into the air to meet Jesus. It sounds strange, but something like this has already happened, which I'll show you in a moment. After all those who have died before the rapture have risen to meet Jesus in the air, then all of us who are still alive will also rise into the air to join the Lord and all who went before us. It will be one big family reunion! This change to our bodies will happen so quickly that it will be almost unnoticeable to us. Most of us will realize the change because we suddenly won't feel any pain or sickness at all. Even for people who don't live with chronic pain, they live daily with little aches and pains that we are so used to that we don't even notice. But we will most certainly notice when they're all gone because we will all feel wonderfully whole and alive! The next thing we'll probably notice is that our sin nature is totally gone and we will never doubt the Lord or sin in any way against Him again, or even want to.
I said that something like this has already happened to some who had died in faith. Now let me show you the passages that speak about this. “The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27:52–53) The first part of this scripture, the part where the tombs broke open the the dead were raised to life, happened after Jesus died on the cross. The part where they went into Jerusalem didn't happen until after Jesus was resurrected. So although they were all raised to life instantly, the rest of this scripture took place over a period of three days. I want you to notice the very last part of that scripture where it says that these people appeared to many people. They weren't invisible. Many people saw them and spoke to them! It was a well known miracle that happened at that time.
Now I want to look at other examples of people who never experienced death, but were taken to heaven from earth - they experienced their own "rapture" though they didn't receive their new bodies at the time. They too will have to wait for the real rapture before that happens. The first person this happened to was Enoch. “And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.” (Genesis 5:22–24) Also, “By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5) These passages don't tell us much except that God took Enoch to Heaven. I find it interesting that Luke 3:37 shows us that Enoch and his son are both in the genealogy of our Lord. Another interesting thing about Enoch is that all the way back in Genesis, only 7 generations after Adam, Enoch prophesied about the Second Coming of Christ! “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”” (Jude 14–15) Notice that Enoch also said that all of "His holy ones" which means all those who have been saved by Him, will return with Him!
The next one we hear about is Elijah. “As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.” (2 Kings 2:11–12) This time we're told a little more. We're told that Elisha saw this happen. A few verses later in 2 Kings 2:15–16 we discover that a whole company of 50 prophets saw this happen. (We know how many there were from 2 Kings 2:7) They wanted to comfort Elisha over the loss of Elijah and so told him that maybe God only picked Elijah up and set him down someplace else. But Elisha knew better. He knew Elijah was gone from the earth for good. He finally gave into them and let them go search for him, but after looking for 3 days they returned and told him they couldn't find him anywhere. (interesting that they searched for 3 days isn't it?) Elisha then told them he'd known from the start that they wouldn't find Elijah. The point I want to make though is that at least 51 people saw Elijah taken into heaven when he was rapture.
Next we have Jesus Himself. “but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.” (Acts 10:40) and then we have all those God raised at His death who joined Him in Jerusalem when He was raised: “The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27:52–53) When Jesus ascended into Heaven, He did not do that in secret and He was not invisible to anyone either: “After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.” (Acts 1:9) but a huge group of people saw Him rise into the sky until they could no longer see Him.
Finally, we have the witness of something that hasn't happened yet, strange as that may seem. In Revelation we're told that God will send two prophets to Israel during the Tribulation. When their job is finished, God will allow the Antichrist to kill them but will raise them from the dead 3 days later: “But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.” (Revelation 11:11–12) Notice again that many will see them killed, many will see them raised to life and many will see them rise into the air to join the Lord in Heaven. They are not invisible.
Another fantasy the books and movies make of the rapture for so reason is that some say that people who have false teeth, or implants of any kind, or who are wearing jewelry, will leave all these things behind them when they go in the rapture. It's a great dramatic affect for novels and the movies, but there is absolutely nothing in scripture to indicate that anything like that will happen. Personally, I found it pretty gross and ugly, not to mention, embarrassing to think that your false teeth would be left behind on top of your pajamas! The only possible connection to scripture I can think of is that our new bodies will be perfect, and we will no longer need those things. However, God is not going to replace our body parts with new ones. He is going to give us brand new bodies. It's not a renewal, but a replacement. We will change in an instant. God does not need to first remove the implants and other things from our bodies before replacing them. He will simply cause us to be in a brand new body. The implants and false teeth and anything else will simply be instantly changed along with our bodies. We are not going to leave a pile of parts behind us when we we rise in the rapture! Paul tries to explain what our new bodies will be like and how we'll be changed starting in 1 Corinthians 15:35-50. It's much to long to post here, but i suggest you read it and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have about it.
That our bodies will be transformed is also spoken of here: “But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.” (Philippians 3:20–21) This transformation of our bodies is also called "the redemption of our bodies".“Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.” (Romans 8:23–25) The rapture is the completion of our salvation, it's what we've been waiting for since the moment we were saved. It's the time when all sin will be removed from us completely, never to return. When our souls and bodies will be completely stain free, without spot or blemish, and we will finally be transformed to be just like our precious Savior, Jesus. All that we will have gone through in our lives here on earth will have been preparing us for this moment. The sins we tried so hard to conquer will never bother us again, and we will love, trust and serve God together with all our brothers and sisters, with all our hearts, minds, and strength from that moment on, forever. It's called "the day of our redemption" here: “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” (Ephesians 4:30) This is the day that the Lord guarantees us by giving us the Holy Spirit. “Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.” (2 Corinthians 1:21–22)
Here are a couple of other scriptures that also speak of this coming wonderful day: “because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.” (2 Corinthians 4:14) and “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” (Colossians 3:4) Notice that this speaks of Jesus appearing, not of Him coming to the Earth.
The bottom line of all of this is that we have no reason to think that unbelievers won't see what happens when the rapture occurs. It us most likely that they will see us rising into the air to meet our Lord, and before they see us rising, they will see the graves opened and those who died before us rising into the air to meet Him. I have more to say about what will most likely happen when the dead rise, but will save that for the next day.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,397
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Post by fearnot on Jan 9, 2017 11:36:52 GMT -5
Once again thank you Cindy.
I am glad you cleared up that part about false teeth etc. being left behind ( it did indeed seem kind of gross and creepy).
I did read the passage you suggested, and have only one question.
It says the seed we plant in the ground is dead, but I always thought seeds were sort of dormant until they are in the ground and watered, at which point they are activated to grow?
Its a minute point, but I wondered if saying the seeds were dead, just meant they were dormant, asleep, not growing, or did the word dead, mean like how things die and nothing but God can bring them back to life, not water, sunshine etc.?
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Post by evafromgreece on Jan 9, 2017 13:43:57 GMT -5
Hey guys :)
I read the first post. I will post some comments on this, in order to see if I know some things correctly.
When we die we go immediatelly to hell or heaven, there is not an "sleeping" situation until the rapture as some people tend to believe. If we are saved
we go to Heaven, the unbelievers go to hell. When the rapture comes the believers who are still on earth will go directly near to the Lord, and people who have died and are with the Lord will receive their brand new immortal bodies (I am not sure if I am expressing correctly what I am want to say...) together with the people who were still on earth and will be with the Lord after the Rapture.
The second coming is the period that will judge the unbelievers, I think at the same period believers would get their rewards, is this right?
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Post by Cindy on Jan 10, 2017 10:29:44 GMT -5
Once again thank you Cindy.
I am glad you cleared up that part about false teeth etc. being left behind ( it did indeed seem kind of gross and creepy).
I did read the passage you suggested, and have only one question.
It says the seed we plant in the ground is dead, but I always thought seeds were sort of dormant until they are in the ground and watered, at which point they are activated to grow?
Its a minute point, but I wondered if saying the seeds were dead, just meant they were dormant, asleep, not growing, or did the word dead, mean like how things die and nothing but God can bring them back to life, not water, sunshine etc.? Hey guys :) I read the first post. I will post some comments on this, in order to see if I know some things correctly. When we die we go immediatelly to hell or heaven, there is not an "sleeping" situation until the rapture as some people tend to believe. If we are saved we go to Heaven, the unbelievers go to hell. When the rapture comes the believers who are still on earth will go directly near to the Lord, and people who have died and are with the Lord will receive their brand new immortal bodies (I am not sure if I am expressing correctly what I am want to say...) together with the people who were still on earth and will be with the Lord after the Rapture. The second coming is the period that will judge the unbelievers, I think at the same period believers would get their rewards, is this right?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,397
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Post by fearnot on Jan 10, 2017 12:33:43 GMT -5
You answered my question perfectly.....now I understand what is meant by the seed dying (or rather dead, has to die )....it dies as a seed, and has turned into a growing plant....right?
That was what I was not getting.
Thank you!
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Post by Cindy on Jan 11, 2017 11:36:05 GMT -5
You answered my question perfectly.....now I understand what is meant by the seed dying (or rather dead, has to die )....it dies as a seed, and has turned into a growing plant....right?
That was what I was not getting.
Thank you! |
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Post by Cindy on Jan 12, 2017 12:05:17 GMT -5
I had hoped that Eva would have caught up before now, but I'm going to continue anyway. I said I'd be talking more about what would happen when those who died before the rapture are raised up in their new bodies, so that's what we'll discuss now. We can get a good idea of what will happen when we look in God's Word at other times the dead were raised. For instance, when the faithful dead were raised after Jesus died, what else happened? “At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27:51–53) There was an earthquake which caused the tombs and graves to be opened so that the people could come out of them. Actually, the Lord could have just caused the people to wake up outside the tombs and graves, but He knew it would be much more dramatic and obvious that these people had been dead if the people living at that time could see their graves opened and see that there was no longer any bodies in them.
Let's look at another instance of this, when Jesus Himself was raised from the dead: “There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.” (Matthew 28:2–3) In this case there was also an earthquake, but it didn't dislodge the stone in front of the tomb, instead, God sent an angel to do that. God wanted to call special attention to what had happened.
This next example is a little different. It's when the two prophets are raised from the dead and ascend into heaven: (since their resurrection and ascension happen right after each other. I'll post it in context for you: “But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.” (Revelation 11:11–13) Again, there was an earthquake when this happened.
Therefore it's quite likely that there will be an earthquake at the time of the rapture. Of course none of us will be harmed by it since we'll all already be in the air rising up to meet our Lord. I believe that many of the books and movies showed an earthquake happening at the rapture and in this case it is true to scripture. Note that scripture does not say that an earthquake will happen at the rapture, it only shows them happening at other times the dead were raised.
I want to point out a couple more things about the rapture: “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:52) In Exodus 19, God tells Moses He wants to speak to all Israel and tells Moses what they need to do to be ready for His presence and to hear Him. When the day arrived (Exodus 19:16) there was a loud blast of a trumpet which announced His presence to Israel and called them to come to the mountain to hear Him. The "last trumpet" will be the trumpet blast that will announce the presence of God to us, His Body, who He is calling to meet Him. The difference is that we will meet with Him in the air, rather than on a mountain. It is the last trumpet for the Church, it is not the "last trumpet ever". This trumpet blast announces the presence of God. It has nothing to do with judgement. The trumpets we see in the book of Revelation however, are all about judgement and are entirely different.
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17) This scripture adds that there will also be "a loud command". Remember the two prophets who will rise during the tribulation? They too will hear a loud command: “Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.” (Revelation 11:12) Many scholars think that's pretty much what our "loud command" will be too. We have to understand that the rapture is not a suggestion or an invitation that can be turned down. The Lord will command us to rise to meet Him. It was the Word of His commands that created this world and everything in it, including each of us. When our Lord commands, He is instantly obeyed, there is no choice. Before our minds even have time to consider it, our bodies will be obeying His command and be rising into the air.
For those people who have a fear of heights, they need not be concerned. We must remember that we will have our new bodies already which means that our sin nature will be completely gone. Therefore we will instinctively know that there is nothing to fear and we will never experience fear of worry again. Besides that, we'll be very busy being overwhelmed by His presence and love as it's only going to take a few seconds for us to reach Him; and excited by everything that's happening. No, there will be no fear. Only great joy for us on that day!
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Post by evafromgreece on Jan 12, 2017 14:50:05 GMT -5
I said that something like this has already happened to some who had died in faith. Now let me show you the passages that speak about this. “The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27:52–53) The first part of this scripture, the part where the tombs broke open the the dead were raised to life, happened after Jesus died on the cross. The part where they went into Jerusalem didn't happen until after Jesus was resurrected. So although they were all raised to life instantly, the rest of this scripture took place over a period of three days. I want you to notice the very last part of that scripture where it says that these people appeared to many people. They weren't invisible. Many people saw them and spoke to them! It was a well known miracle that happened at that time.
Now I want to look at other examples of people who never experienced death, but were taken to heaven from earth - they experienced their own "rapture" though they didn't receive their new bodies at the time. They too will have to wait for the real rapture before that happens. The first person this happened to was Enoch. “And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.” (Genesis 5:22–24) Also, “By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5) These passages don't tell us much except that God took Enoch to Heaven. I find it interesting that Luke 3:37 shows us that Enoch and his son are both in the genealogy of our Lord. Another interesting thing about Enoch is that all the way back in Genesis, only 7 generations after Adam, Enoch prophesied about the Second Coming of Christ! “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”” (Jude 14–15) Notice that Enoch also said that all of "His holy ones" which means all those who have been saved by Him, will return with Him!
The next one we hear about is Elijah. “As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.” (2 Kings 2:11–12) This time we're told a little more. We're told that Elisha saw this happen. A few verses later in 2 Kings 2:15–16 we discover that a whole company of 50 prophets saw this happen. (We know how many there were from 2 Kings 2:7) They wanted to comfort Elisha over the loss of Elijah and so told him that maybe God only picked Elijah up and set him down someplace else. But Elisha knew better. He knew Elijah was gone from the earth for good. He finally gave into them and let them go search for him, but after looking for 3 days they returned and told him they couldn't find him anywhere. (interesting that they searched for 3 days isn't it?) Elisha then told them he'd known from the start that they wouldn't find Elijah. The point I want to make though is that at leas
Enoch and Elijah and those people after Jesus was ressurected will get their new bodies at the rapture, am I understanding this correctly? I am not sure about this "“The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27:52–53) It make me wonder and some months ago when I was studying Matthew, I am sure I have mention this. Now that you mentioned the similarities with the rapture, it starts to make sense. But, if they didnt take their new body back then , those people were wandering around with their old body? And they were to Heaven, their souls, the soul came back to earth to the body, and they could be seen by people in Jerusalem ? |
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Post by evafromgreece on Jan 12, 2017 14:56:47 GMT -5
The Second Coming is when Jesus returns to the Earth, ends Armageddon, all Israel is saved, and then Jesus will judge the nations at the sheep and goat judgement shown in Matthew 25:31-46. This is to determine how people/nations treated the Jew's during the tribulation and who will go into the Millennial Kingdom and is not the final judgment which is called the Great White Throne Judgement. That will not happen until after the Millennial Kingdom is over. Let's not get ahead of ourselves though. Right now we are only talking about the rapture. The rest will be covered when we get to it. The only reason I showed verses about the second coming in my first post was to show the difference between that and the rapture, so you could recognize when the bible is talking about the rapture.
Ok, but because I just want to make clear some things, in the Second Coming God will judge people who were alive in that period, or people (dead and alive) of that period in general? I am not sure if my question is clear. |
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,397
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Post by fearnot on Jan 13, 2017 14:57:01 GMT -5
I had to wonder, if there would ever be any Christian who would even think they might want to stay on earth a little longer when call to come up to forever be with the Lord?
Perhaps they might feel sad for their unbelieving loved ones, but it seems like we would all feel secure in leaving them with the Lord.
To be sure to have to live thru the tribulation will not be fun, but if the Lord intends to save them, then we can rest, and leave them to God....knowing they will be saved...so what other reason could there be to hesitate?
But the idea about earthquakes was interesting, as it seems like the earth is already having lots more earthquakes and of greater strength.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 16, 2017 11:10:25 GMT -5
I said that something like this has already happened to some who had died in faith. Now let me show you the passages that speak about this. “The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27:52–53) The first part of this scripture, the part where the tombs broke open the the dead were raised to life, happened after Jesus died on the cross. The part where they went into Jerusalem didn't happen until after Jesus was resurrected. So although they were all raised to life instantly, the rest of this scripture took place over a period of three days. I want you to notice the very last part of that scripture where it says that these people appeared to many people. They weren't invisible. Many people saw them and spoke to them! It was a well known miracle that happened at that time.
Now I want to look at other examples of people who never experienced death, but were taken to heaven from earth - they experienced their own "rapture" though they didn't receive their new bodies at the time. They too will have to wait for the real rapture before that happens. The first person this happened to was Enoch. “And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.” (Genesis 5:22–24) Also, “By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5) These passages don't tell us much except that God took Enoch to Heaven. I find it interesting that Luke 3:37 shows us that Enoch and his son are both in the genealogy of our Lord. Another interesting thing about Enoch is that all the way back in Genesis, only 7 generations after Adam, Enoch prophesied about the Second Coming of Christ! “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”” (Jude 14–15) Notice that Enoch also said that all of "His holy ones" which means all those who have been saved by Him, will return with Him!
The next one we hear about is Elijah. “As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.” (2 Kings 2:11–12) This time we're told a little more. We're told that Elisha saw this happen. A few verses later in 2 Kings 2:15–16 we discover that a whole company of 50 prophets saw this happen. (We know how many there were from 2 Kings 2:7) They wanted to comfort Elisha over the loss of Elijah and so told him that maybe God only picked Elijah up and set him down someplace else. But Elisha knew better. He knew Elijah was gone from the earth for good. He finally gave into them and let them go search for him, but after looking for 3 days they returned and told him they couldn't find him anywhere. (interesting that they searched for 3 days isn't it?) Elisha then told them he'd known from the start that they wouldn't find Elijah. The point I want to make though is that at leas
Enoch and Elijah and those people after Jesus was ressurected will get their new bodies at the rapture, am I understanding this correctly? I am not sure about this "“The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27:52–53) It make me wonder and some months ago when I was studying Matthew, I am sure I have mention this. Now that you mentioned the similarities with the rapture, it starts to make sense. But, if they didnt take their new body back then , those people were wandering around with their old body? And they were to Heaven, their souls, the soul came back to earth to the body, and they could be seen by people in Jerusalem ?
Anyone who died before Christ was resurrected, received an intermediate body at death. If we die before the rapture, we will also receive an intermediate body. It's almost perfect, but not quite. It does not have any sin nature attached to it though. Again, when they or we receive the intermediate body, it happens so quickly that we don't even realize that any change has taken place. It's a spiritual body because we know that the purely physical body cannot exist in heaven.
The people who were raised when Jesus died, were in heaven in their intermediate bodies. God has them return to the earth so that others could see that they were alive. After they had appeared to many people, God had them return to heaven. All of that time they were still in their intermediate bodies.
We have to remember too that going places is not the same in heaven as it is here on earth. If you want to visit me, you have to come to where I live and it would be a very long trip. But in heaven, all you have to do is think of where you want to be and you will be there. There is no "distance" to travel or "time" to be concerned about. It's instantaneous.
The Second Coming is when Jesus returns to the Earth, ends Armageddon, all Israel is saved, and then Jesus will judge the nations at the sheep and goat judgement shown in Matthew 25:31-46. This is to determine how people/nations treated the Jew's during the tribulation and who will go into the Millennial Kingdom and is not the final judgment which is called the Great White Throne Judgement. That will not happen until after the Millennial Kingdom is over. Let's not get ahead of ourselves though. Right now we are only talking about the rapture. The rest will be covered when we get to it. The only reason I showed verses about the second coming in my first post was to show the difference between that and the rapture, so you could recognize when the bible is talking about the rapture.
Ok, but because I just want to make clear some things, in the Second Coming God will judge people who were alive in that period, or people (dead and alive) of that period in general? I am not sure if my question is clear. I had to wonder, if there would ever be any Christian who would even think they might want to stay on earth a little longer when call to come up to forever be with the Lord?
Perhaps they might feel sad for their unbelieving loved ones, but it seems like we would all feel secure in leaving them with the Lord.
To be sure to have to live thru the tribulation will not be fun, but if the Lord intends to save them, then we can rest, and leave them to God....knowing they will be saved...so what other reason could there be to hesitate?
But the idea about earthquakes was interesting, as it seems like the earth is already having lots more earthquakes and of greater strength.
As far as trusting God about our unsaved loved ones goes, we must trust Him, as we have no other choice. We cannot be saved for them, and we cannot force them to be saved. Even if we harass them enough to where they say "the sinners prayer", they still wouldn't be saved, because salvation is given based on our hearts, not on what words we say or pray. If people would reflect on the rapture and the state of their loved ones souls right now, knowing what will happen to their loved ones if they don't go in the rapture, it would cause us to be much more serious about witnessing to them now and not waiting since we don't know when the rapture will happen. But at the same time, we would also hopefully realize, that their salvation doesn't depend on us, it depends on God. Why? Because we were His enemy before we were saved. Before we were saved, we did not want anything to do with Him and we most certainly did not seek to know Him or know about Him. So how did we get saved? We got saved because God changed our hearts and made us want to know Him. He made us realize that we were sinners and needed a Savior that only He could provide. That's the first step in salvation. Sometimes God uses people to show us that we're sinners and need a Savior; sometimes He does it Himself through visions, or dreams. The point is though that we can witness to someone until we're blue in the face and it won't do any good at all unless or until the Lord changes their heart and makes them accept our words. That's why prayer is so important. The best thing we can do for an unsaved loved on is pray for their salvation.
Just as we don't know when someone would be born, or when they will die, we also don't know when a person will be born again - saved. But we know that God knows those things. So when we have an unsaved loved one, we have to realize that God knows when that person will be saved. Further, we know that the timing of their salvation is based on facts that we have no knowledge of, but that God does know about and therefore has timed their salvation for when it's the very best time for them. To us, we want everyone saved right now or better yet, yesterday. But God really does know what is best, so this is an issue of trust. Will we trust God to save our loved one at the perfect time for them - even if that time is after the rapture? Or do we think that God has lost His mind and isn't doing His job well and therefore needs our help?
We know that God is love, that He loves us and wants to give us the desire of our hearts. For those who are saved though, the desire of our hearts is to be with Him, to know Him better, and to know His Word better, and also for our loved ones to have the same desire to know and love Him that we do. Therefore we can be assured that if there's even the tiniest hope of them being saved, that the Lord will save them in His time. When we really accept that, we're able to rest in Him and don't have to be concerned about shoving the truth down their throats. Instead we will simply witness to them with our lives, and speak only when the person gives us an opening, and/or the Lord tells us to. We won't expect them to be saved instantly, but instead will rest knowing that they will be saved eventually in God's time.
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Post by evafromgreece on Jan 16, 2017 15:36:18 GMT -5
I had hoped that Eva would have caught up before now, but I'm going to continue anyway. I said I'd be talking more about what would happen when those who died before the rapture are raised up in their new bodies, so that's what we'll discuss now. We can get a good idea of what will happen when we look in God's Word at other times the dead were raised. For instance, when the faithful dead were raised after Jesus died, what else happened? “At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27:51–53) There was an earthquake which caused the tombs and graves to be opened so that the people could come out of them. Actually, the Lord could have just caused the people to wake up outside the tombs and graves, but He knew it would be much more dramatic and obvious that these people had been dead if the people living at that time could see their graves opened and see that there was no longer any bodies in them.
Let's look at another instance of this, when Jesus Himself was raised from the dead: “There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.” (Matthew 28:2–3) In this case there was also an earthquake, but it didn't dislodge the stone in front of the tomb, instead, God sent an angel to do that. God wanted to call special attention to what had happened.
This next example is a little different. It's when the two prophets are raised from the dead and ascend into heaven: (since their resurrection and ascension happen right after each other. I'll post it in context for you: “But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.” (Revelation 11:11–13) Again, there was an earthquake when this happened.
Therefore it's quite likely that there will be an earthquake at the time of the rapture. Of course none of us will be harmed by it since we'll all already be in the air rising up to meet our Lord. I believe that many of the books and movies showed an earthquake happening at the rapture and in this case it is true to scripture. Note that scripture does not say that an earthquake will happen at the rapture, it only shows them happening at other times the dead were raised.
I want to point out a couple more things about the rapture: “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:52) In Exodus 19, God tells Moses He wants to speak to all Israel and tells Moses what they need to do to be ready for His presence and to hear Him. When the day arrived (Exodus 19:16) there was a loud blast of a trumpet which announced His presence to Israel and called them to come to the mountain to hear Him. The "last trumpet" will be the trumpet blast that will announce the presence of God to us, His Body, who He is calling to meet Him. The difference is that we will meet with Him in the air, rather than on a mountain. It is the last trumpet for the Church, it is not the "last trumpet ever". This trumpet blast announces the presence of God. It has nothing to do with judgement. The trumpets we see in the book of Revelation however, are all about judgement and are entirely different.
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17) This scripture adds that there will also be "a loud command". Remember the two prophets who will rise during the tribulation? They too will hear a loud command: “Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.” (Revelation 11:12) Many scholars think that's pretty much what our "loud command" will be too. We have to understand that the rapture is not a suggestion or an invitation that can be turned down. The Lord will command us to rise to meet Him. It was the Word of His commands that created this world and everything in it, including each of us. When our Lord commands, He is instantly obeyed, there is no choice. Before our minds even have time to consider it, our bodies will be obeying His command and be rising into the air.
For those people who have a fear of heights, they need not be concerned. We must remember that we will have our new bodies already which means that our sin nature will be completely gone. Therefore we will instinctively know that there is nothing to fear and we will never experience fear of worry again. Besides that, we'll be very busy being overwhelmed by His presence and love as it's only going to take a few seconds for us to reach Him; and excited by everything that's happening. No, there will be no fear. Only great joy for us on that day!
Can we assume what the reaction of the unbelievers would be? I think that at least they would consider the event, if they are at least logical. How can someone could be indifferent to this? |
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Post by Cindy on Jan 17, 2017 10:57:30 GMT -5
Can we assume what the reaction of the unbelievers would be? I think that at least they would consider the event, if they are at least logical. How can someone could be indifferent to this?
But when the rapture happens, there will be chaos in every area where many people are gone from. I don't think there will be anywhere near as many people going in the rapture as the movies and books made it look like. That's my personal opinion though based on the fact that the Lord always has a remnant, which is a small number compared to the whole population.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 18, 2017 12:25:11 GMT -5
OK, is there anything about the rapture itself you don't understand or have a question about? If not, then we'll move on to the next thing to happen, which is the bema judgement.
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Post by evafromgreece on Jan 19, 2017 8:48:53 GMT -5
Can we assume what the reaction of the unbelievers would be? I think that at least they would consider the event, if they are at least logical. How can someone could be indifferent to this?
But when the rapture happens, there will be chaos in every area where many people are gone from. I don't think there will be anywhere near as many people going in the rapture as the movies and books made it look like. That's my personal opinion though based on the fact that the Lord always has a remnant, which is a small number compared to the whole population.
Yes they will not be indifferent but most of them still would not try to get closer to God and get saved. This might be because of the lies though... Similar to now. You can find a Bible in any bookstore but who is willing to read it? It is there, its not forbidden to have it or to read it but people dont care. I dont think I have more questions, so if Barbara also or anyone that might be reading this is ok too, I think you can move on. By the way I am sick with gastroenteritis :( |
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Post by Cindy on Jan 20, 2017 10:48:56 GMT -5
Yes they will not be indifferent but most of them still would not try to get closer to God and get saved. This might be because of the lies though... Similar to now. You can find a Bible in any bookstore but who is willing to read it? It is there, its not forbidden to have it or to read it but people dont care. I dont think I have more questions, so if Barbara also or anyone that might be reading this is ok too, I think you can move on. By the way I am sick with gastroenteritis :(
More people will be saved during the Tribulation than ever before. The whole world will hear the gospel - some will hear it from others who were left behind and came to faith in Christ. Others will hear it from angels, but every man, woman and child will hear the gospel and a huge number of people will be saved during those 7 short years. We're told that so many will be saved that they can't be counted. It must be a huge number since we're told that 2 million men will be in one army and that there will be thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand angels. (Revelation 9:16 and Revelation 5:11) “After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”” (Revelation 7:9–10) “Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:13–14)
Just think, all those people will be saved during just 7 years, and we've had over 2000 years to bring salvation to others and haven't reached hardly anyone, at least compared to this! The only time that a great number of people were saved during the Church age was right at first, probably the first 100 years. After that, the numbers got smaller and smaller. It makes me ashamed to know how little I've done and makes me want to do more.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 30, 2017 13:23:52 GMT -5
I hope you saw my reply to you Eva.
I've been working on something ever since my last reply. I realized that I should show you guys why I believe we will have a body after we die and before the rapture happens - assuming we die before the rapture. If we don't die before the rapture, than this would only concern those who have already died. Although neither of you questioned what I said about it, I felt that I should show what the Bible says and not just what I think about what it says, and let you make up your own minds. Then the day before I was going to post about it, I accidentally hit the wrong button in my bible library and deleted all the many notes I'd taken for the last week! That's never, ever happened to me before and I just couldn't believe it when it happened this time. I was all set to be upset and angry and have a miserable day because of it, when the Lord reminded me that He is sovereign, and that nothing happens for no reason. That made me realize that He was in control, not my bible library program, and not me. I may not understand why it happened, but I could realize that my God loves me and uses everything, even the loss of all my notes, for my good and His glory. Therefore, knowing that, i could rejoice that I lost my notes! Wow, what a change in attitude! And so quickly too!  I had to laugh at myself for my reactions and thank the Lord that He had reminded me so that I wouldn't sin against Him by being upset, but could instead be not just content, but actually rejoice over what had happened. What a wonderful God we serve! So I've spent the time since then replacing all my notes and adding some I didn't have before.
First I want to share what most bible teachers say about this subject. Most say that our spirit and soul go to be with the Lord but they say we won't have an actual body until the rapture happens. Some just skip over this entirely and don't say anything at all about it. So why do I feel so differently and so strongly that I would even disagree with pastors I trust to rightly divide God's Word? I think that most of them, if not all, believe the way they do because that's what they were taught, and also because that's the way people have thought about death forever. I think they simply didn't think to challenge the idea and see if it held up to what the Bible says. That doesn't make them bad, it just makes them human. I know I do the same thing, we all do. It's just how our minds generally work. So let's see what the Bible actually says about this and see what you think is true about it. I'll explain why I think it shows that we will have a body, but will post the scriptures as well so that you can decide for yourself what it says. OK?
In 1 Corinthians 15:35–50 Paul discusses the "resurrection body" specifically. This is the body all believers will receive at the rapture. It's very obvious that it's a very real body. However, since Paul is specifically speaking of the resurrection body, perhaps we shouldn't use this to determine what will happen right after we die. So for now at least, we'll leave this out of our discussion. At first I thought that Paul was speaking of what happens after death in 2 Corinthians 5:1–10. Let's see what he says here: “Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.” (2 Corinthians 5:1) He's comparing our physical bodies to a tent, which is a great way to look at it. When the tent we're living in falls apart and we are unable to live in it anymore, he says that God has another tent for us to live in - but our new "tent" won't be temporary like this one is, it will be permanent and last eternally. He is saying that we won't be disembodied, but will instead have a very real body in heaven, one that is much better than the one we have now. The pagans back then thought that if there was a life after death, that it would be one where the people had no body, that people would be like ghosts or spirits. But Paul says that's not true, that we will have bodies. “Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.” (2 Corinthians 5:2–3) Paul seems to be saying that when we think about the new body the Lord has for us, we will want to have it very much; that we will realize that we won't be without a body because God clothes us with our new body. Or he could be viewing his mortal body like nakedness when it's compared to the glorious body we will have. No matter what we think though, it's very obvious that Paul says we will have a body then and that the body will be eternal. But if you look at the context, going back to 2 Corinthians 4:7–18, you again see that Paul could be speaking about the resurrection body. But there's a problem here, and this problem keeps coming up with many of the scriptures we'll look at.
To see the problem, let's look at some of 2 Corinthians 4:7–18. “But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.” (2 Corinthians 4:7) makes it clear that he is speaking about our mortal bodies, the ones we have now. Verse 8 is a favorite of many of us and shows how difficult living for Christ is, and more importantly, that Jesus will always enable us to endure and persevere through our trials. But look closely at these verses: “We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.” (2 Corinthians 4:8–12) Here Paul is speaking of physical death. He feels so strongly about what God has promised us through Jesus, that he is willing to die so that others could be saved if that's necessary. Let me skip down to the last couple of verses, although you should read the whole thing: “Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:16–18) Paul is telling us that no matter what we go through in this life, that God will give us so much more in Heaven that it will make any loss, any trial or tragedy, seem minor. He certainly doesn't seem to be talking about something that will happen much later after death, but rather something that happens immediately. We'll see this with a number of scriptures. On the one hand we're told that our salvation will be complete at the rapture, when we get our new bodies. On the other hand, the bible never seems to mention a state in between death and the rapture. So is there a difference between the two? Are we just spirits for awhile until the rapture and then we will get new bodies? I don't think so....
We have one story about death that we can be sure is absolutely true, because Jesus told us about it. for our purposes it really doesn't matter if this was a parable or a true story, but for the record I do want to state that it was not a parable. I'm speaking about the story Jesus told about the rich man and the poor man who died in Luke 16:19-31. in this verse we see something that happens immediately after death: ““The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.” (Luke 16:22) The angels carried the one who was saved to "Abraham's side" or "Abraham's bosom". "Abraham's bosom" is where those who were saved before our Lord's resurrection went when they died. It is where Jesus went when He died, and He brought all those people to Heaven after He rose, so that now every believer who dies, go straight to Heaven. We see on the other hand that the wicked rich man went straight to Hell. He had no escort, but went there at the command of God. Let me ask you a question now. If we are simply spirits when we die, how could someone carry a spirit, or hold a spirit? There wouldn't be anything substantial for them to hold on to. In the rest of the story, we see Abraham having a conversation with the wicked rich man. There is nothing in this story to support the idea that either one of them was just a "spirit" or just a "soul" without a body. In fact, look at this verse: ““But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.” (Luke 16:25) I would say that it takes a body to be able to feel sensations and to be able to receive "good things". While I suppose someone could argue otherwise, their argument would have to be based on guess work rather than facts. ““ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”” (Luke 16:30–31) When Dives asks Abraham to send someone from the dead, he obviously expects whoever is sent to be in a body, and not some kind of ghost.
We also have these verses: “Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”” (Luke 23:42–43) Here the thief asks Jesus to remember Him when He returns to start the Millennial Kingdom. The Lord replied saying that he wouldn't have to wait until then, but would be with Him in Paradise that very day. (Paradise is another term for Abraham's Bosom) So again, there is no indication of some kind of difference in the person's body, between the time a person dies and the time after the rapture when we are to receive our incorruptible bodies.
We do have one other first hand account of heaven: “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.” (2 Corinthians 12:2–4) Paul is speaking about himself in these verses. He tells us that somehow or another, he was taken to heaven. That is amazing by itself, but another amazing part of it is that he could not tell whether or not he was still in his regular body or if he had another body, the kind that would be acceptable in heaven! Therefore, it makes me think that there was no way for him to tell whether or not he had literally died and gone to heaven, or whether God had brought him to heaven in some other way, kind of like a rapture of just one person; like the way Enoch and later Elijah went to Heaven. So again, we see that the people in haven do have bodies and are not just spirits or ghosts.
There is much, much more, but I'll have to write about it tomorrow, God willing, as I've run out of time today. But this much should give you both plenty to think about to start with anyway.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 31, 2017 13:31:43 GMT -5
Let's look at another verse we're all familiar with: “Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.” (Hebrews 2:14–15) Ok, Jesus shared in our humanity and died for us, and then He rose again to show us that all He has told us is True, and that He has the power to do what He has said He will do. It proved that He is indeed God. Since Jesus rose from the dead though, people still die, so how does Jesus free those who are saved and are still so afraid of death? He frees them by example. He showed them that they have nothing to fear - that death is not the end, but is just the beginning of a new life that's so much better than this one because we will have no taint of sin left in us and we will have real bodies that can do amazing things. His resurrection shows us what will happen to us as well. So does His promise to us. What promise? “Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”” (John 11:25–26) But wait, what does this mean? People who are saved do still die, so how is it true? It's true because really death for those who are saved is like an illusion. We will never die. From the instant we are saved, we begin to live our eternal life, it doesn't start when our body dies, it starts the moment we are saved, because the only thing that dies is our current body, our body of sin. Thank God it dies! For when it does, we will have a new body that will never die and that will reflect our sinless state and all the ways we have grown in Christ in this life, and all the spiritual fruit that we have gained and grown in. It will reflect the glory that Jesus gives us! We must understand that "we" don't die, only the body we are currently wearing dies, and it does so in order that we can be given a better one. One that won't ever experience decay or pain, or sickness. For us, death is no more than changing our clothes. We take off this body in order to wear a better one, our Sunday best! This is our blessed hope!
Let's see some other passages about this. Here is what Job said about death and Job is the very first book ever written to be part of God's Word. (The cultural and historical features found in the book appear to place the events chronologically at a time probably after Babel [Gen. 11:1–9] but before or during the period of Abraham [Gen. 11:27ff.], making it the most ancient book in the Bible. The MacArthur Bible handbook ) “And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!” (Job 19:26–27) That does not sound to me like we're going to be without any body at all after we die. Instead it shows me that we will have a body of flesh and blood, just like Jesus had when He was resurrected.
Jesus also prayed for us before He died, and this is what He said: ““Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” (John 17:24) This is our friend, our Savior and God, and the lover of our souls asking His Father to let Him show His friends the wonders of Heaven and share them with us, to let Him show us His glory in it's full so we can know Him as He really is. We can know for sure that the Father has answered His Son's prayer with a resounding "Yes!" because we know that Jesus always prayed in and for the Father's Will, and that He and the Father were One. therefore His desire was also the Father's desire. Do you really think that Jesus is going to ushering around people who have no bodies but just spirits, so show us the wonders of heaven and His glory? Sorry, I just don't see it that way. I see us all together in new bodies enjoying His presence and worshiping Him, and enjoying all heaven has to offer us.
Now, let's look at something else Paul says: “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.” (Philippians 1:21–24) Now, if you thought that you wouldn't have a body to use in Heaven would you be that anxious to get there to see Jesus? Or would you have some misgivings, preferring to wait till you could have the body and then meet Him? I'm just speaking of our typical human nature, and that nature prefers the known over the unknown. It's quite easy to let go of this body when we know a better one awaits us, but to let go of it and be without one, would be more difficult for us. I just don't believe that the Lord gives us any real reason to think that we won't have a body when we open our eyes in Heaven.
After speaking about some of the false teachers, and what their destiny will be, Paul again makes a statement important to this discussion: “But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. Therefore, my brothers, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, that is how you should stand firm in the Lord, dear friends!” (Philippians 3:20–4:1) This world is not our home, although we've been told many times that it is. Everything about it, even the so called "good things" about it, aren't anywhere near as good as the very best that awaits us in our true home in Heaven. Again we are told in no uncertain terms that Jesus will transform our bodies so that they will be like His glorious body. Again there is no mention of any time span without a body. This is so certain that it's what we can use to help us stand firm in our faith now.
There are several psalms that mentions this: “But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself.Selah” (Psalm 49:15) “And I—in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness.” (Psalm 17:15) “Our God is a God who saves; from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death.” (Psalm 68:20) “You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will take me into glory.” (Psalm 73:24)
The last two scriptures I want to point out to you are from Revelation. “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.” (Revelation 6:9) Souls is the Greek word psyche here and in the next verse. It means “persons,” which is the normal meaning of the Gk.word psyche.
“I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)
I think that these verses are part of the reason that many teachers for many generations have believed that we wouldn't have bodies at first, because of our own preconceived notions about death and what a "soul" usually means to us.
The fact that John could see them implies that they had received intermediate bodies in heaven & were awaiting their resurrections body. Their coming to life suggests that they are then given resurrected bodies. The rapture already happened so that all the dead and living believers already have their resurrection bodies. This First resurrection is the rest of the redeemed of all ages: the OT saints and the tribulation martyrs. They'll be resurrected after the tribulation and before the Millennial Kingdom starts So now everyone except those who lived through the tribulation and those born during the Millennium have immortal bodies. (Well learn more about the 1st and 2nd resurrection later when we get to them; right now we're just concerned with the rapture and with what happens right after death for those who die before the rapture.) The point I want to make about the above two verses is this: John "saw" these people. Yes, the word has been translated "souls" but it could have just as easily been translated "people". In other words, Revelation 6:9 could be literally translated: “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people (or the persons) who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.” The same is true for Revelation 20:4. I think the reason the translators chose the word "souls" when they translated the verses was because of our preconceived notions about death, and for no other reason. In fact, some versions have been brave enough to use the normal word "persons or people" when translating those verses. Here's one: Holman Christian Standard Bible | Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.
I also wanted to look up the words used for ghosts to see what they were. In “When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.” (Matthew 14:26) and Mark 6:49 the word for ghost is phantasma which is a derivitive of the word pneuma. Here: “They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”” (Luke 24:37–39) both times the word "ghost" is used it is the word pneuma. I looked up the scripture about the time Saul went to a medium and had her call up Samuel. “The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said, “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.”” (1 Samuel 28:13) In 1 Sam 28:13 the word meaning ghost is translated several ways, in the ESV it's someone "like a god" which is elohim. In the NKJV it's translated "a spirit" . Others call it "a diving being," "one like a god" and "gods". I also checked Acts 16:16 where the girl has a spirit she predicts things by and that spirit is called pneuma. "familiar spirits" in Lev 19:31 & Isaiah 8:19 is yiddoni, which is again a derivative of the word pneuma.
All this reminded me of another verse so I checked it:
From Rom 8:10–11 “But if Christ is in you, your body soma is dead nekros because of sin, yet your spirit pneuma is alive zoe because of righteousness. And if the Spirit pneuma of him who raised egeiro Jesus from the dead nekros is living oikeo in you, he who raised egeiro Christ from the dead nekros will also give life zoopoieo to your mortal thnetos bodies soma through his Spirit, pneuma who lives enoikeo in you.”
The bottom line for me is that again, I see no reason to expect anything other than that we will have an intermediate body from the instant this body dies, until we receive our incorruptible body at the rapture. Of course if we are alive when the rapture happens, then we will skip the intermediate body and simply receive our glorified body immediately. I realize that all of this can be confusing, but I wanted to give you as much as I could, hopefully without overwhelming you. If you have questions, I'll try to answer them for you. I'd also like to discuss what the difference will be between our intermediate bodies and our final glorified body.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 8,397
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Post by fearnot on Feb 2, 2017 16:10:58 GMT -5
Excellent...I think the scriptures you showed us prove it.
I found this to be very comforting:
"People who are saved do still die, so how is it true?
It's true because really death for those who are saved is like an illusion.
We will never die.
From the instant we are saved, we begin to live our eternal life, it doesn't start when our body dies, it starts the moment we are saved, because the only thing that dies is our current body, our body of sin.
Thank God it dies! "
I need to read all the scriptures in full but will do that in a bit.
Thank you, Cindy.
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Post by Cindy on Feb 3, 2017 11:08:14 GMT -5
I'm glad you've found it useful. I'm honestly not trying to make anyone believe it says what I think it does, but rather give everyone an opportunity to judge for themselves. But I can't help thinking about it the way I do. If I ever see a reason to think otherwise, I'll certainly say so, but I don't see that happening lol. From the very beginning the Lord created us with bodies. He never created anyone without a body or had any of us live without a body for any time before our creation. So why would He have us live without one after the mortal body died? It just doesn't make sense to me, as I see nothing that points toward it.
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Post by evafromgreece on Feb 21, 2017 9:58:31 GMT -5
We have one story about death that we can be sure is absolutely true, because Jesus told us about it. for our purposes it really doesn't matter if this was a parable or a true story, but for the record I do want to state that it was not a parable. I'm speaking about the story Jesus told about the rich man and the poor man who died in Luke 16:19-31. in this verse we see something that happens immediately after death: ““The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.” (Luke 16:22) The angels carried the one who was saved to "Abraham's side" or "Abraham's bosom". "Abraham's bosom" is where those who were saved before our Lord's resurrection went when they died. It is where Jesus went when He died, and He brought all those people to Heaven after He rose, so that now every believer who dies, go straight to Heaven. We see on the other hand that the wicked rich man went straight to Hell. He had no escort, but went there at the command of God. Let me ask you a question now. If we are simply spirits when we die, how could someone carry a spirit, or hold a spirit? There wouldn't be anything substantial for them to hold on to. In the rest of the story, we see Abraham having a conversation with the wicked rich man. There is nothing in this story to support the idea that either one of them was just a "spirit" or just a "soul" without a body. In fact, look at this verse: ““But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.” (Luke 16:25) I would say that it takes a body to be able to feel sensations and to be able to receive "good things". While I suppose someone could argue otherwise, their argument would have to be based on guess work rather than facts. ““ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”” (Luke 16:30–31) When Dives asks Abraham to send someone from the dead, he obviously expects whoever is sent to be in a body, and not some kind of ghost.
We also have these verses: “Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”” (Luke 23:42–43) Here the thief asks Jesus to remember Him when He returns to start the Millennial Kingdom. The Lord replied saying that he wouldn't have to wait until then, but would be with Him in Paradise that very day. (Paradise is another term for Abraham's Bosom) So again, there is no indication of some kind of difference in the person's body, between the time a person dies and the time after the rapture when we are to receive our incorruptible bodies.
We do have one other first hand account of heaven: “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.” (2 Corinthians 12:2–4) Paul is speaking about himself in these verses. He tells us that somehow or another, he was taken to heaven. That is amazing by itself, but another amazing part of it is that he could not tell whether or not he was still in his regular body or if he had another body, the kind that would be acceptable in heaven! Therefore, it makes me think that there was no way for him to tell whether or not he had literally died and gone to heaven, or whether God had brought him to heaven in some other way, kind of like a rapture of just one person; like the way Enoch and later Elijah went to Heaven. So again, we see that the people in haven do have bodies and are not just spirits or ghosts.
There is much, much more, but I'll have to write about it tomorrow, God willing, as I've run out of time today. But this much should give you both plenty to think about to start with anyway.
Hey guys :) I think its clear that we will have bodies, and we will not be just ghosts. One little note that I think I have to be reminded is the main differences between paradise and heaven, except the fact that people go to Heaven after Jesus resurrected. |
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Post by Cindy on Feb 21, 2017 10:52:56 GMT -5
Hey guys :) I think its clear that we will have bodies, and we will not be just ghosts. One little note that I think I have to be reminded is the main differences between paradise and heaven, except the fact that people go to Heaven after Jesus resurrected.
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I had to laugh at myself for my reactions and thank the Lord that He had reminded me so that I wouldn't sin against Him by being upset, but could instead be not just content, but actually rejoice over what had happened. What a wonderful God we serve! So I've spent the time since then replacing all my notes and adding some I didn't have before.
!!
