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Post by Cindy on Jan 10, 2020 9:23:46 GMT -5
So I read you post on if people would see the rapture or not...and it turns out I had read it before, nevertheless, it was good to read it again. I guess, I must not have totally 'got' it the first time around :( This time I got that the dentures, and clothes etc 'left behind' was more for a more dramatic cinematic effect! But in reality when God changes us, those things will be done. That's good, but I take it that you still don't understand why the invisible stuff and the "secret" stuff isn't necessarily true either? What makes you believe that it will be invisible then? Can you give a scriptural reason for it to happen that way?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 10, 2020 13:37:36 GMT -5
You are right, but it's more the ........don't understand ......than disagreeing with you.
I don't think I have a clue as to why I still don't 100 percent get it.... the only 2 things I can think of might be: one: how strong watching things ( in this case movies) that depict things incorrectly and or flat out wrong stick in one's ( my) mind....
and maybe (?) the twinkling of an eye....makes me think.... not only will we be changed ( get our new bodies)in such a small fraction of a second and we will also be with Jesus that fast, ( in a small fraction of a second)
that the humans left behind will not be able to see it with their eyes ( toooo quick time wise for their eyes to actually see it or us)?
And I suppose when I have been believing something wrong for sooooo long, it takes awhile to kick out the old and except the true ( bad habits sometimes take time to undo...why its better not to have them in the first place).
Other than that....I was thinking, I need to re-read your post yet again..... I still struggle with speed reading, skimming over, etc. things I read......I do slow down more than I ever used to, but I still do that.
These days, I will slow down when something 'jumps' out at me.... then I will often go back and re-read it....
S-L-O-W-L-Y
Like, I got the part how silly it would be to leave behind pumps, teeth etc.
On the other hand, if clothes etc. were not left, and family etc. were asleep when it happened how would they know, you were not kidnapped, or wandered off like you had Alzheimer?
I know there will be a 'trumpet' but I am not sure....do unbelievers hear it also.....?
so anyone ( unbelievers as well as believers) 'asleep' will hear the trumpet and look up and see us with Jesus?
But also....no matter when it happens, won't 1/2 the world be experiencing night time? So how will the 'see' it anyway....
of course, that too is 'movie' fodder..... people wake up, found some family member is missing, they look and calls for them, and then 'finally' notices their clothes, or dentures, watch etc. etc. in a pile on a chair or bed or in a car etc. etc.
and then, the left behind folks, turn on news to find this is a world wide event ( and the speculation begins as to what happened: aliens, Gaia, virus etc etc.). But some of those speculations would not work ( if they all actually saw the people rise and go into the air and disappear)....a virus would not raise people into the air, nor would their 'mother' earth version, which could only leave the alien explanation
It's funny when I think of not watching things....keeping my eyes from seeing things that would cause me to stumble, and shutting my eyes from looking on evil things...etc. I think of things like pornography, or sexually explicit movies, sitcoms, etc.
but strangely, it seems, even something 'good'.... like a left behind movie, can have some 'bad' effects...if it is not accurate.
Which may be a reason to limit myself even more, to staying in the Bible... or at least, to take more care and realize, that even a good Bible theme movie, does not always follow God's word exactly, but 'fudges' here and there, for artistic cinematic effect.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 10, 2020 14:52:48 GMT -5
I am not sure if I have covered everything leading up to the 'tribulation' or not If you can think of things I have missed or not covered fully etc. Please point it out ( and if I think of it as I go forward, then I will backtrack)
But for today, I will briefly talk a little about what happens after the rapture happens? And what is the tribulation anyway? Firstly, after the Christians have been taken out of the earth to go be with Jesus there will be a world full of non-believers left behind.
The tribulation kind of like the rapture is not exactly in scripture ( as I already discussed rapture is an ENGLISH word, and the Bible was NOT written in English, so therefore the word Rapture ( as an English word) is not in scripture but rather in Greek and Latin)
However Jesus Himself does refer to the last half of the Tribulation as the Great Tribulation:
[smear:#b60816]"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." Matthew 24: 21[/smear:#bfad0d:1]
[smear:#3c4d08]".......And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation......"Revelation 7:14[/smear:#b819e6:0]
However the 'Tribulation" is the term used for the 7 year period referred to in [smear:#1f615c] Daniel 9:27 "And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”[/smear:#982e7f:0]
However this needs to be put in context of the whole 70 weeks in Daniel: the angel Gabriel brings an answer to Daniel's prayers and vision and it in essence is key to all the end time prophecy;
[smear:#730c7c]" 24“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” Daniel 9:24-27[/smear:#a40d1d:1]
So one thing this passage does, is establishes a time time. It goes from Daniel to Jesus, to the rapture, the tribulation and anti-Christ, and the 2nd coming of Jesus.
The NIV calls it: "“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed" in any case , Most all commentators agree it is: seventy “weeks” of years Or 490 years ( minus the 7 weeks and Jesus would come in 483 years.... This is also time is also divided up
But first some of the things or purpose for this time:
1) to finish the transgression 2) to put an end to sin 3) to atone for iniquity 4) to bring in everlasting righteousness 5)to seal both vision and prophet 6) to anoint a most holy place
Of these 6 purposes, we know Jesus atoned for sin by His death on the cross ( #3 purpose)
Also Gabriel says this 'clock' would start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem ( given by King Artaxerxes of Persia c. 445 B.C).... then 483 years and Jesus would come.... 483 years after 445 B.C. would be A.D. 30, when Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem was made.
After Jesus death ( where He said nothing in His own defense) [smear:#bd19e6]v.26 " the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing"[/smear:#47e619:0]
the destruction of the temple and the city will be destroyed...( by Romans)
so 69 of the 70 weeks have been fulfilled Which leaves the 70th week ( the tribulation)
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 11, 2020 14:56:50 GMT -5
Just a quick note, almost all Bible scholars say the 'weeks' are years and the 70 weeks are multiplied by 7... for them to be actually 70 weeks only, would not be enough time for all the things to happen,... for example, for the city to be rebuilt ( as a straight forward 70 weeks) would end up lasting about 1 1/2 years, and then it would be destroyed again).. not much of a consolation the angel would have been bringing to Daniel.
So the 70th week, is the one to come, know as the Tribulation. It is divided into two parts: The first 3 1/2 years and the second 3 1/2 years
This will be the time of the anti-Christ the rise and rule of a one world leader.
Even today, we hear people saying if there were no borders, no countries, etc. there would be no wars....we would all be one big happy family. We would share resources since we would have a one world government etc.
It sounds like a plan, what could go wrong? Well... a lot really, but lets look at that later
For now lets look more at the coming tribulation and some other verses, I may not have posted about the tribulation.
[smear:#e63919] ".....And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time". Daniel 12: 1[/smear:#0c696a:0]
[smear:#6ce619]Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it. Jeremiah 30:7[/smear:#e6194a:0] This verse is often called the time of Jacob's trouble.
The beginning of the tribulation will actually seemingly be a time of peace and safety....exactly what the peoples of world will be desperately wanting. And it will begin with what will seem to bring peace in the middle East. [smear:#55114a] "And he shall make a strong covenant with many ( Israel) for one week ( 7 years)..." Daniel 9:7[/smear:#65820f:0]
One of the key elements in this peace treaty will be allowing the Jews to rebuild the Jewish Temple ( which is not yet....so that is one of many clues we are not in the tribulation).
The 2nd half of the tribulation is as I mentioned before called the Great Tribulation ( or the time of Jacob's Distress) by Jesus:
[smear:#225349]"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be" Matthew 24: 21[/smear:#872a37:0]
Right now we are living in what is referred to as the 'church age ( appox. 2000 plus years.....very long from a human perspective but from God's about 2 days)
[smear:#4f1263]"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8[/smear:#185f44:0]
So there will arise a leader...a one world leader who will be so charismatic ( at least at first) he will seem to be the 'real' Christ.
I can't help but remember France's leader Macron on the cover of the Economist, walking on water ( like Jesus really did)..... to be clear, I am not saying that Macron is the anti-Christ. The anti-Christ won't be reveal until the believers are raptured,
however This kind of boasting and implication of being like Jesus, reminds me of:
[smear:#8eb823]Daniel 7: 8
"I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things." [/smear:#e544c2:0]
and
[smear:#912714]Daniel 8 " 23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. 24 His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints. 25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many..." [/smear:#3c1158:1]
and
[smear:#1f855c]"He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. 37 He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all. " Daniel 11:36,37[/smear:#60e619:1]
and these are the things the anti-Christ will do and say....and more
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 12, 2020 11:10:43 GMT -5
The end times effects all the people left behind, but it also is about the fact God is not done with Israel. We can certainly see that the Middle East, is often front and center of world news to this very day. We occasionally hear of news of other countries when some disaster etc happens but it seems we hear about the Middle East almost daily.
And this is in spite of the fact that most Israeli Jews continue in their unbelief of Jesus as the Messiah. God does not make promises He doesn't keep so we can be sure He meant it when He said:
[smear:#6f1355]For the Lord will not forsake his people, for his great name's sake, because it has pleased the Lord to make you a people for himself". I Samuel 12: 22[/smear:#19e67b:1]
[smear:#408f1a]“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers,..." Deuteronomy 7: 6-8[/smear:#e6194f:1] [smear:#187a7a] "31 if they violate my statutes and do not keep my commandments, 32 then I will punish their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with stripes, 33 but I will not remove from him my steadfast love or be false to my faithfulness. 34 I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips." Psalm 89: 31-34[/smear:#e66c19:1]
The point is that those who try too replace the church with Israel makes God a liar and besides the church is taken out at the rapture ( there will be many who will become believers during the tribulation...but the church is gone).
We have so many that have turned away from Truth, sometimes it seems like there are only a small amount of true believers, so it seems amazing that this is only the beginning, and it will get worse, in the tribulation.
[smear:#cc23ab]"...while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived..." 2 Timothy 3: 13[/smear:#19e676:1]
This is going to be spearheaded by the anti-Christ , also know as the “man of sin” or a man of lawlessness. He will be in opposition to God and sin will be his main characteristic.
2 Thessalonians 2: 3,4
[smear:#63e619]" 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God..."[/smear:#af0cb4:1]
So the day of the Lord ( Jesus 2nd coming) will not happen, until ,the anti-Christ comes first.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 13, 2020 11:00:19 GMT -5
You are right, but it's more the ........don't understand ......than disagreeing with you.
I don't think I have a clue as to why I still don't 100 percent get it.... the only 2 things I can think of might be: one: how strong watching things ( in this case movies) that depict things incorrectly and or flat out wrong stick in one's ( my) mind....
and maybe (?) the twinkling of an eye....makes me think.... not only will we be changed ( get our new bodies)in such a small fraction of a second and we will also be with Jesus that fast, ( in a small fraction of a second)
that the humans left behind will not be able to see it with their eyes ( toooo quick time wise for their eyes to actually see it or us)?
And I suppose when I have been believing something wrong for sooooo long, it takes awhile to kick out the old and except the true ( bad habits sometimes take time to undo...why its better not to have them in the first place).
Other than that....I was thinking, I need to re-read your post yet again..... I still struggle with speed reading, skimming over, etc. things I read......I do slow down more than I ever used to, but I still do that.
These days, I will slow down when something 'jumps' out at me.... then I will often go back and re-read it....
S-L-O-W-L-Y
Like, I got the part how silly it would be to leave behind pumps, teeth etc.
On the other hand, if clothes etc. were not left, and family etc. were asleep when it happened how would they know, you were not kidnapped, or wandered off like you had Alzheimer?
I know there will be a 'trumpet' but I am not sure....do unbelievers hear it also.....?
so anyone ( unbelievers as well as believers) 'asleep' will hear the trumpet and look up and see us with Jesus?
But also....no matter when it happens, won't 1/2 the world be experiencing night time? So how will the 'see' it anyway....
of course, that too is 'movie' fodder..... people wake up, found some family member is missing, they look and calls for them, and then 'finally' notices their clothes, or dentures, watch etc. etc. in a pile on a chair or bed or in a car etc. etc.
and then, the left behind folks, turn on news to find this is a world wide event ( and the speculation begins as to what happened: aliens, Gaia, virus etc etc.). But some of those speculations would not work ( if they all actually saw the people rise and go into the air and disappear)....a virus would not raise people into the air, nor would their 'mother' earth version, which could only leave the alien explanation
It's funny when I think of not watching things....keeping my eyes from seeing things that would cause me to stumble, and shutting my eyes from looking on evil things...etc. I think of things like pornography, or sexually explicit movies, sitcoms, etc.
but strangely, it seems, even something 'good'.... like a left behind movie, can have some 'bad' effects...if it is not accurate.
Which may be a reason to limit myself even more, to staying in the Bible... or at least, to take more care and realize, that even a good Bible theme movie, does not always follow God's word exactly, but 'fudges' here and there, for artistic cinematic effect. First, yes, when there's a question left in your mind, it is time to slow down or even stop, and continue in that subject until the Lord has answered your question - which of course you've asked Him about....
As far as the twinkling of an eye goes, look at the verse: “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:52) This is referring to getting our new bodies, to both the dead and living getting their new bodies. I say that tongue in cheek since there aren't any "dead" people, they're very much alive with the Lord. We think they're dead because we can't see them, but the truth of the matter is that we're blind, they're not dead. lol. So anyway, it has nothing to do with how fast we'll rise into the air, it has to do with our new bodies. It's saying that it will happen so fast that we won't even notice that anything has changed - not until we hear the trumpet and start rising into the air anyway and that's assuming we're among the ones who know our Bible and so know what to expect.
Please don't get upset with me, but I need to point out something very important here that is a big mistake many people make. You seem to be trying to "figure out" the why's of how the rapture will happen. Like you said maybe it happens this way so that people will think such and such.... But that's not the way we are to read the Bible! You know that. I seriously doubt if you would do that same thing if you were writing about when Jesus went to the Cross, or anything else for that matter. But for some reason people seem to take exception to that when it concerns the rapture and tribulation. What does God say though? “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.” (Revelation 22:18) Or “Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.” (Proverbs 30:6) and other similar scriptures in the OT. It's fine to make things up, or try and figure out why things will happen in a certain way if you're writing a fiction story, but we're not doing that. We're teaching people what God's Word says. Therefore we must be very careful not to write what we think the Bible means, but instead write only what the Bible says. When writing what we think, we need to make sure that the people reading understand that we're no longer teaching what the Bible says, but instead are stating what we think "might" happen.
That's why I specifically asked you to show me scripture that says it will be invisible. You could also show me scripture that you think indicates that it may be invisible. I've shown many scriptures that indicate that it may very well be visible to everyone.
About it being night time in half the world when the rapture happens, what in the world does that matter? Of course people that are sleeping won't see it happen unless they wake up for some reason. Again, you're trying to figure out why God would do something a certain way. For those who are in the night part of the earth, if there are lights on inside or outside, those people will be able to see it happen; if there are no lights on, those people won't see it, especially if they're sleeping. Those things don't matter at all though. When I said everyone would see it, I obviously meant those who are awake and able to see it, which will be all those people who God has decided that He wants them to see it happen, because He is the one that's in control of everything. Besides which, you also aren't taking into account the glory of God which is often seen as a brilliant light shining from Him, even from His clothes. Perhaps that light will help some of those who are in the dark see more. I have no idea, but will leave all of that up to the Lord.
Finally, about the clothing and various artificial body parts being left behind, that's totally ridiculous and not true. Nor will not leaving clothes, jewelry, and body parts behind have any affect on the various lies that Satan has prepared for that day. You're giving way too much credit to the movies and books. As for the lies that Satan has prepared, you're making it sound like they have to be logical, but they don't. Sin isn't logical, it's actually quite literally insane. People who aren't saved will believe whatever they want to believe regardless of the truth of what they've seen or heard. “To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.” (Titus 1:15)
To make this easier I'll quote that post here for you. I honestly think we should stay on this until it's clarified and not get into other stuff until afterward.
In all the fiction books, shows and movies, the rapture is presented as all of the believers being invisible when they are snatched up to be with the Lord. Most of us simply accept that without question, but I tend to question everything and wanted to know what the bible actually says about this. I think you might be surprised at what I discovered.
The only thing the bible says directly about the rapture is that we will be changed and that it will happen in "the twinkling of an eye". After that, in 1 Cor 15:51-52, we're simply told the dead will be raised with their new bodies and then our bodies will be changed. Nothing at all about it being invisible to other people. In one way it will be invisible, simply because it will happen so fast that anyone watching a believer at the time wouldn't actually "see" anything change. One second they'd be like they always had been and the next, they'd have imperishable bodies like our Lord had. So if the Bible doesn't actually say, how else can we find out without looking beyond it? We need to look at other examples of when something similar happened.
We know that Enoch was the first one to be taken to heaven without dying, but that's all the bible says about him so it's no help. The next one was Elijah and that tells us quite a bit. His story is in 2 Kings 2:11–18. First a Chariot and horses or fire appeared and forced Elisha away from Elijah as they were walking together. Then a whirlwind appeared and Elijah was taken up to heaven in it, in the full view of Elisha! He saw it all.
There's also an example in Revelation when the 2 prophets are brought back to life and taken up to heaven in Rev 11:12-13. First they heard the loud voice saying "come up here" and they then went up to heaven in a cloud. The verse states quite matter of factly that this happened while all the people were watching them. Immediately after this happened there was a bad earthquake. I mention this because we're going to see that there are often earthquakes or some other "natural" phenomenon surrounding events like this. Just as in Elijah's case when we saw the whirlwind.
Finally, we can look at some things that happened when Jesus was here before. First we have His transformation. This was seen by the 3 apostles. They saw Jesus, Moses and Elijah together. That story is in Matthew 17:1-5. So again, He was seen by them, although He told them not to tell anyone until after He'd risen from the dead. the disciples also heard the voice of the Father at that time, telling them that Jesus was His Son and He was very pleased with Him, and that they should listen to Him. This was something they'd remember the rest of their lives and Peter even talked about it in 2 Peter 1:16-17 as I'm quite sure the others did as well.
We also have all the stories of Jesus raising people from the dead. One moment their bodies were quite dead, and the next, they were quite alive. Even Lazarus whose body had already begun to decompose, was seen quite alive once the Lord called him back to life.
Finally, we have the reports of when our Lord died, when He was resurrected and when He ascended to Heaven. It's not spoken about much, but in Matthew 27:51-53 we're told that after the curtain in the temple was torn, there was an earthquake. Tombs broke open and were told many people who were considered to be holy people that had died, were resurrected at the time of our Lord's death. We're not told where they went or what they did for the next couple of days, but when our Lord was resurrected they were seen in Jerusalem by many people. That's always amazed me! It must have really blown people's minds back then and it's really surprising to me that there's not more about it in the Bible. But then again, I'm quite sure that it was something that was so well known and spoken about constantly that they probably figured there was no reason to write more about it.
Next, when our Lord was raised from the dead there was another earthquake. An angel or two appeared and scared the guards half to death. This was when the women had gone to the tomb to anoint His body, and the angels told her that He was alive and they'd see Him soon. (Matthew 28:2-7) We know the Lord was seen by many people during the next 40 days as we're told any number of times that "God caused Him to be seen", such as in Acts 10:40.
Finally, when the Lord ascended to Heaven, He didn't do this in secret. He'd been talking to a large crowd in fact. He gave them his last command and began to lift up into the air right in front of their eyes! We're told about this in Acts 1:9–11, Mark 16:19,and Luke 24:51.
Everything I've spoken about here wasn't done in secret, no one was invisible. Other people, believers and unbelievers alike saw these things. There are many other incidents in the OT where the Lord revealed Himself to people. Sometimes to one or two, and sometimes to large crowds. There was always something like an earthquake or clouds, strong wind, or fire happening whenever this would happen. But He certainly wasn't invisible and neither were they. He always had a reason whenever something supernatural like this would take place. Sometimes it was to reward someone, or teach them so they could teach others, or sometimes it was to warn them. Other times, such as when Jesus was here, it was to confirm that Jesus was in fact His Son and had the authority to do what He said He would. And sometimes it was a mixture of those reasons.
We're told in Acts 17:31 that the resurrection is proof that Jesus is who He said He is and that there will come a day when He will judge the world. This is one reason why the resurrection and ascension were visible. God was letting everyone for all time know that He was serious and that Jesus would be the one judging every man, woman and child one day. While we aren't privy to seeing a lot of supernatural miracles of that kind in our time, the time is coming when once again the supernatural will happen even more frequently then it ever has before. That time is during the Tribulation. I'm not talking just about the judgments, but about the angels that will interact with humans during that time and other supernatural events like that, which will be almost common place then. There will not be a human being alive at that time who won't know for sure that God exists and is watching and able to do all that He says. That's why taking the Mark is unforgivable. When they take that mark, they will knowingly be choosing to worship the antichrist instead of God, and that's what makes it unforgivable. It sounds dire to us, but really it's not much different then happens every day. Each time a person refuses to accept the offer of salvation after hearing about it, they harden their hearts, until eventually their hearts are so hard that they couldn't change their minds if they wanted to. It's the same thing that will happen then. The only difference is that there will be a visible mark to prove it.
The day of judgment is something the Lord has warned about since the beginning and is obviously very important. Those who are saved have nothing to worry about because our sins have already been judged at the cross. Jesus paid the price for us. But it's something God wants everyone to be aware of, that one day, they will be judged. What better way to get that across to the generation that will go through the tribulation then the rapture? I believe that the rapture will be quite visible to everyone. I don't think they'll be able to see Jesus because He will be high in the air waiting for us. With the eyesight we'll have with our new bodies, we will be able to see Him as we rise up to meet Him there. I think it's quite possible that everyone on earth will hear Him call us to come up to Him, just as they'll hear Him again when He calls the prophets up to Him. He warned about this in the old testament and when He was here the first time. There's no reason for Him to keep this a secret from the rest of the world.
We also have a little know scripture in Luke that refers to the rapture. It's Luke 21:17–22.“All men will hate you because of me. But not a hair of your head will perish. By standing firm you will gain life. “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.” (Luke 21:17–22) Here Jesus was warning them of what would happen shortly when Jerusalem would fall to the Roman's. After He rose to Heaven, we know He sent prophets and they also warned the Christians before Rome fell reminding them of what the Lord had said, and told them to flee to Pella. Because of that, all but a few Christians who were willing to stay and give up their lives in order to try and reach a few last souls for the Kingdom, were saved. They all had fled to Pella as the Lord had told them too, so only the unbelievers were left in the city when it fell. Why is this important to us? Because this passage is also showing what will happen at the rapture, when the believers will be spared God's wrath. Like most prophecies, this one too has more then one fulfillment. It was fulfilled back then and will be again at the rapture of the Church. “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”(1 Thessalonians 5:9) The Christians back then did not become invisible. They simply left the region. We too will simply leave. The difference will be our route since we will be going straight up into Heaven. Seem impossible? Ask Elijah, as he did this too as did Enoch and as will the two prophets. Like them, I believe we will rise up into the air in full view of all the people on earth.
If it's totally visible as I think it will be, how would that affect the lies that most others will believe? It won't affect it at all, in fact, it would make the lies more believable! Think about it. Seeing this happen would make people believe the new age lies, or the UFO theories etc even more believable to the unsaved! It would be right up their alley! BUT, it would also give those people that we've witnessed to and told about the rapture, and even better chance of believing the Truth and being saved, then having it be invisible would. Speaking of that, I do not for one second believe that people with jewelry, or false teeth or other things like that are going to leave those things behind on this earth the way the books and movies show it. I've always thought that was pretty sick and gory. For instance I had a pump implanted in my abdomen and a according to the movies, my friends would find a nasty bloody pump along with my dentures and my wedding ring, wherever I'd last been before the rapture. That's movies my friends, that's not the Bible! God doesn't need to remove things in order to change our bodies. As I said, the change will happen so quickly that no one will actually see that happen. But I'm positive nothing that's not original to our bodies will be left behind us. Those things will simply cease to be. They will have been changed right along with our natural bodies.
Let me share one last argument with you. We're told: “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.” (Romans 8:19) This doesn't say that creation is waiting for us to be changed and hidden away until the 2nd coming. It says it can't wait until we're revealed! When something is revealed, it's seen, it's not invisible or something to be guessed at or wondered about. Peter says in 1 Peter 5:1, that we will share in the glory to be revealed, so again we're told it's something that will be revealed, not hidden. This will also be true at the second coming, but there's no reason it's not true at the rapture as well. I'll leave you all now with the scripture we all know so well and look forward to, which I hope that we can all see with excitement and new eyes: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
I am not sure if I have covered everything leading up to the 'tribulation' or not If you can think of things I have missed or not covered fully etc. Please point it out ( and if I think of it as I go forward, then I will backtrack)
But for today, I will briefly talk a little about what happens after the rapture happens? And what is the tribulation anyway? Firstly, after the Christians have been taken out of the earth to go be with Jesus there will be a world full of non-believers left behind.
The tribulation kind of like the rapture is not exactly in scripture ( as I already discussed rapture is an ENGLISH word, and the Bible was NOT written in English, so therefore the word Rapture ( as an English word) is not in scripture but rather in Greek and Latin)
However Jesus Himself does refer to the last half of the Tribulation as the Great Tribulation:
[smear:#b60816]"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." Matthew 24: 21[/smear:#bfad0d:1]
[smear:#3c4d08]".......And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation......"Revelation 7:14[/smear:#b819e6:0]
However the 'Tribulation" is the term used for the 7 year period referred to in [smear:#1f615c] Daniel 9:27 "And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”[/smear:#982e7f:0]
However this needs to be put in context of the whole 70 weeks in Daniel: the angel Gabriel brings an answer to Daniel's prayers and vision and it in essence is key to all the end time prophecy;
[smear:#730c7c]" 24“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” Daniel 9:24-27[/smear:#a40d1d:1]
So one thing this passage does, is establishes a time time. It goes from Daniel to Jesus, to the rapture, the tribulation and anti-Christ, and the 2nd coming of Jesus.
The NIV calls it: "“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed" in any case , Most all commentators agree it is: seventy “weeks” of years Or 490 years ( minus the 7 weeks and Jesus would come in 483 years.... This is also time is also divided up
But first some of the things or purpose for this time:
1) to finish the transgression 2) to put an end to sin 3) to atone for iniquity 4) to bring in everlasting righteousness 5)to seal both vision and prophet 6) to anoint a most holy place
Of these 6 purposes, we know Jesus atoned for sin by His death on the cross ( #3 purpose)
Also Gabriel says this 'clock' would start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem ( given by King Artaxerxes of Persia c. 445 B.C).... then 483 years and Jesus would come.... 483 years after 445 B.C. would be A.D. 30, when Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem was made.
After Jesus death ( where He said nothing in His own defense) [smear:#bd19e6]v.26 " the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing"[/smear:#47e619:0]
the destruction of the temple and the city will be destroyed...( by Romans)
so 69 of the 70 weeks have been fulfilled Which leaves the 70th week ( the tribulation)
I thought you said you wanted to talk about whether or not diseases or illness and pain would be increased both before and during the tribulation. (before the trib as a kind of mini preview of what will come.) If you do, we can do that after we finish talking about the rapture. What you've said here is good, but let's wait till after we finish with the rapture before continuing with it.
Just a quick note, almost all Bible scholars say the 'weeks' are years and the 70 weeks are multiplied by 7... for them to be actually 70 weeks only, would not be enough time for all the things to happen,... for example, for the city to be rebuilt ( as a straight forward 70 weeks) would end up lasting about 1 1/2 years, and then it would be destroyed again).. not much of a consolation the angel would have been bringing to Daniel.
So the 70th week, is the one to come, know as the Tribulation. It is divided into two parts: The first 3 1/2 years and the second 3 1/2 years
This will be the time of the anti-Christ the rise and rule of a one world leader.
Even today, we hear people saying if there were no borders, no countries, etc. there would be no wars....we would all be one big happy family. We would share resources since we would have a one world government etc.
It sounds like a plan, what could go wrong? Well... a lot really, but lets look at that later
For now lets look more at the coming tribulation and some other verses, I may not have posted about the tribulation.
[smear:#e63919] ".....And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time". Daniel 12: 1[/smear:#0c696a:0]
[smear:#6ce619]Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it. Jeremiah 30:7[/smear:#e6194a:0] This verse is often called the time of Jacob's trouble.
The beginning of the tribulation will actually seemingly be a time of peace and safety....exactly what the peoples of world will be desperately wanting. And it will begin with what will seem to bring peace in the middle East. [smear:#55114a] "And he shall make a strong covenant with many ( Israel) for one week ( 7 years)..." Daniel 9:7[/smear:#65820f:0]
One of the key elements in this peace treaty will be allowing the Jews to rebuild the Jewish Temple ( which is not yet....so that is one of many clues we are not in the tribulation).
The 2nd half of the tribulation is as I mentioned before called the Great Tribulation ( or the time of Jacob's Distress) by Jesus:
[smear:#225349]"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be" Matthew 24: 21[/smear:#872a37:0]
Right now we are living in what is referred to as the 'church age ( appox. 2000 plus years.....very long from a human perspective but from God's about 2 days)
[smear:#4f1263]"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8[/smear:#185f44:0]
So there will arise a leader...a one world leader who will be so charismatic ( at least at first) he will seem to be the 'real' Christ.
I can't help but remember France's leader Macron on the cover of the Economist, walking on water ( like Jesus really did)..... to be clear, I am not saying that Macron is the anti-Christ. The anti-Christ won't be reveal until the believers are raptured,
however This kind of boasting and implication of being like Jesus, reminds me of:
[smear:#8eb823]Daniel 7: 8
"I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things." [/smear:#e544c2:0]
and
[smear:#912714]Daniel 8 " 23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. 24 His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints. 25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many..." [/smear:#3c1158:1]
and
[smear:#1f855c]"He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. 37 He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all. " Daniel 11:36,37[/smear:#60e619:1]
and these are the things the anti-Christ will do and say....and more
You said: The beginning of the tribulation will actually seemingly be a time of peace and safety....exactly what the peoples of world will be desperately wanting. That's not quite true. After this you quoted the scripture showing the treaty that would be signed by Israel but that's only a very small portion of the world. The world will be desiring peace and safety and they will believe that the antichrist can give it to them because he will make that treaty with Israel and probably do other things that will seemingly solve other current problems that people will think is just wonderful. But when you look at what will happen during those first 3 and half years, it's anything but peaceful and safe! Everything else was good, but again. let's wait to do more until after we've finished the rapture.
The end times effects all the people left behind, but it also is about the fact God is not done with Israel. We can certainly see that the Middle East, is often front and center of world news to this very day. We occasionally hear of news of other countries when some disaster etc happens but it seems we hear about the Middle East almost daily.
And this is in spite of the fact that most Israeli Jews continue in their unbelief of Jesus as the Messiah. God does not make promises He doesn't keep so we can be sure He meant it when He said:
[smear:#6f1355]For the Lord will not forsake his people, for his great name's sake, because it has pleased the Lord to make you a people for himself". I Samuel 12: 22[/smear:#19e67b:1]
[smear:#408f1a]“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers,..." Deuteronomy 7: 6-8[/smear:#e6194f:1] [smear:#187a7a] "31 if they violate my statutes and do not keep my commandments, 32 then I will punish their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with stripes, 33 but I will not remove from him my steadfast love or be false to my faithfulness. 34 I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips." Psalm 89: 31-34[/smear:#e66c19:1]
The point is that those who try too replace the church with Israel makes God a liar and besides the church is taken out at the rapture ( there will be many who will become believers during the tribulation...but the church is gone).
We have so many that have turned away from Truth, sometimes it seems like there are only a small amount of true believers, so it seems amazing that this is only the beginning, and it will get worse, in the tribulation.
[smear:#cc23ab]"...while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived..." 2 Timothy 3: 13[/smear:#19e676:1]
This is going to be spearheaded by the anti-Christ , also know as the “man of sin” or a man of lawlessness. He will be in opposition to God and sin will be his main characteristic.
2 Thessalonians 2: 3,4
[smear:#63e619]" 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God..."[/smear:#af0cb4:1]
So the day of the Lord ( Jesus 2nd coming) will not happen, until ,the anti-Christ comes first.
good! OK, let's work on the rapture now.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 13, 2020 12:08:16 GMT -5
See, that is why I need your help, to keep me on track!
I read all your Biblical points on the rapture and agree.... Well, only Elijah left behind a piece of clothing, I know it was for Elisha as the passing on of the office of prophecy etc.
I'm just saying....LOL It happened once, but no.....I am just being silly.
I did notice however, at least in all the verses about Jesus, His clothes were ON tho transformed by His being God? In any case, he did not lose His clothes.
And I forgot about wondering if illnesses or pains etc would also increase before the tribulation.
After the tribulation....I am sure there are verses showing that during the tribulation that is true!!
But before......like increases in all the other things....we are seeing.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 13, 2020 14:20:13 GMT -5
In the KJV version pestilences are foretold by Jesus as pre-tribulation things ( tho I could not find it in NIV or ESV), and for sure there have been terrible diseases that have caused massive sicknesses and deaths.
"[smear:#26a314]...... and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes"[/smear:#b42130:1]
Looking at diseases today, it seemed like for a time that antibiotics was on the course of eliminating many deadly killers. However, that 'seems' to be reversing as antibiotics don't seem to work as well anymore.
And I also am speculating, if perhaps various governments or fringe or radical groups might not use our massive technology to 'design' ... by working on the 'DNA' or whatever, to engineer some fatal diseases to rid people they decide should be eliminated.
Or 'weaponize' diseases by sending some people already dying of something like say Ebola to a country free of that and thus cause massive deaths.
Those two possibilities are not in scripture and are just my wondering if they could or might feed in the rise, growth, and increasing pestilences again.
I wonder if for a time people may have begun to wonder when we had such wonder drugs all but eliminating so many plagues, if this aspect of the Bible was wrong....but I know that cannot be true, and we are seeing things reversing rather quickly.
In the OT God used various plague and/or diseases:
[smear:#679010]"Thus saith the Lord, Choose thee
“Thus says the Lord, ‘Choose what you will: 12 either three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or else three days of the sword of the Lord, pestilence on the land, with the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.’ ......So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel, and 70,000 men of Israel fell. I Chronicles 21: 11, 12, 14[/smear:#e619cf:1]
Psalm 91 speaks of being delivered from the deadly pestilence:
[smear:#1a7966]"For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence". Psalm 91: 3[/smear:#e67e19:1]
I just did a quick search to see if cancer ( just to pick one) is increasing and here are just a couple of quotes:
"An increasing number of people in the US are being diagnosed with––and dying from––anal cancer, according to new research published in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute". "Human papillomavirus (HPV) is the most common sexually transmitted disease, and consists of 40 different mutations, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC), which also reports that 79 million Americans are infected,.."
stomach cancer as well as pancreatic, liver and kidney cancers have increased recently.
And breast cancer
"The number of deaths from breast cancer has dropped over the past decade in the United States, but around the world, especially in less-developed countries, the number is rising. A report from the World Health Organization (WHO) in December 2013 said 522,000 women died from breast cancer in 2012 – a 14 percent increase compared with 2008".
"Lung cancer cases are on the rise among women and non-smokers"
And oh by the way, I did a quick search on arthritis and Lo and behold:
"About 54 million U.S. adults have arthritis. However, the number of men and women with arthritis is growing and expected to reach more than 78 million in 2040, according to a new CDC study."
Well that would answer just 'one' aspect of my wondering if pain ( physical) would increase but also for 'mental' pain
CDC says: "Suicide is a leading cause of death in the US. Suicide rates increased in nearly every state from 1999 through 2016".
What? Can this be true??? I thought car deaths were THE leading cause of death, but be that as it may.....when people don't have God in their lives this is not so surprising.
Not to mention people taking drugs to cover their pain
so the CDC said:
In 2016, there were approximately:
40,000 motor vehicle-related deaths 39,000 people firearm-related deaths 64,000 people drug overdose-related death
So no cars did not kill more people, it was drugs.
And this is scary:
"A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000. Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer."
Which is a great reminder to believers that if you are sick, prayer should be first, and always asked for as stated in
[smear:#318a38]James 5:14-16
"14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working".[/smear:#762271:1]
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Post by Cindy on Jan 14, 2020 11:20:09 GMT -5
See, that is why I need your help, to keep me on track!
I read all your Biblical points on the rapture and agree.... Well, only Elijah left behind a piece of clothing, I know it was for Elisha as the passing on of the office of prophecy etc.
I'm just saying....LOL It happened once, but no.....I am just being silly.
I did notice however, at least in all the verses about Jesus, His clothes were ON tho transformed by His being God? In any case, he did not lose His clothes.
And I forgot about wondering if illnesses or pains etc would also increase before the tribulation.
After the tribulation....I am sure there are verses showing that during the tribulation that is true!!
But before......like increases in all the other things....we are seeing. I had hoped you wouldn't do anything else except talk about the rapture until we get it cleared up.... Anyway, what you said about Elijah leaving behind a piece of clothing - for one thing, Elijah was not wearing his cloak, he was carrying it. Since he was taken up in a whirlwind, it stands to reason that he would lose the cloak because of the wind, especially since he knew Elisha would want to have it anyway. So he wouldn't have tried to hold on to it.
I don't get it. Why don't you want to discuss this more? What made you change your mind so fast? and why did it make you change your mind???
In the KJV version pestilences are foretold by Jesus as pre-tribulation things ( tho I could not find it in NIV or ESV), and for sure there have been terrible diseases that have caused massive sicknesses and deaths.
"[smear:#26a314]...... and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes"[/smear:#b42130:1]
Looking at diseases today, it seemed like for a time that antibiotics was on the course of eliminating many deadly killers. However, that 'seems' to be reversing as antibiotics don't seem to work as well anymore.
And I also am speculating, if perhaps various governments or fringe or radical groups might not use our massive technology to 'design' ... by working on the 'DNA' or whatever, to engineer some fatal diseases to rid people they decide should be eliminated.
Or 'weaponize' diseases by sending some people already dying of something like say Ebola to a country free of that and thus cause massive deaths.
Those two possibilities are not in scripture and are just my wondering if they could or might feed in the rise, growth, and increasing pestilences again.
I wonder if for a time people may have begun to wonder when we had such wonder drugs all but eliminating so many plagues, if this aspect of the Bible was wrong....but I know that cannot be true, and we are seeing things reversing rather quickly.
In the OT God used various plague and/or diseases:
[smear:#679010]"Thus saith the Lord, Choose thee
“Thus says the Lord, ‘Choose what you will: 12 either three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or else three days of the sword of the Lord, pestilence on the land, with the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.’ ......So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel, and 70,000 men of Israel fell. I Chronicles 21: 11, 12, 14[/smear:#e619cf:1]
Psalm 91 speaks of being delivered from the deadly pestilence:
[smear:#1a7966]"For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence". Psalm 91: 3[/smear:#e67e19:1]
I just did a quick search to see if cancer ( just to pick one) is increasing and here are just a couple of quotes:
"An increasing number of people in the US are being diagnosed with––and dying from––anal cancer, according to new research published in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute". "Human papillomavirus (HPV) is the most common sexually transmitted disease, and consists of 40 different mutations, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC), which also reports that 79 million Americans are infected,.."
stomach cancer as well as pancreatic, liver and kidney cancers have increased recently.
And breast cancer
"The number of deaths from breast cancer has dropped over the past decade in the United States, but around the world, especially in less-developed countries, the number is rising. A report from the World Health Organization (WHO) in December 2013 said 522,000 women died from breast cancer in 2012 – a 14 percent increase compared with 2008".
"Lung cancer cases are on the rise among women and non-smokers"
And oh by the way, I did a quick search on arthritis and Lo and behold:
"About 54 million U.S. adults have arthritis. However, the number of men and women with arthritis is growing and expected to reach more than 78 million in 2040, according to a new CDC study."
Well that would answer just 'one' aspect of my wondering if pain ( physical) would increase but also for 'mental' pain
CDC says: "Suicide is a leading cause of death in the US. Suicide rates increased in nearly every state from 1999 through 2016".
What? Can this be true??? I thought car deaths were THE leading cause of death, but be that as it may.....when people don't have God in their lives this is not so surprising.
Not to mention people taking drugs to cover their pain
so the CDC said:
In 2016, there were approximately:
40,000 motor vehicle-related deaths 39,000 people firearm-related deaths 64,000 people drug overdose-related death
So no cars did not kill more people, it was drugs.
And this is scary:
"A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000. Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer."
Which is a great reminder to believers that if you are sick, prayer should be first, and always asked for as stated in
[smear:#318a38]James 5:14-16
"14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working".[/smear:#762271:1]
Very good hon. It would really help though if you included what scripture you're talking about. Yes, only the KJV adds pestilences here. ALL the other versions, old and new, leave it out. But there's a reason for that. AV | Mt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. NASB95 | Mt 24:7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. Mark is the same: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.” (Mark 13:8) with all the versions saying it this way except the KJ which of course adds another word: "troubles" which was added to try and make it conform with Matthew. But the word pestilences in Matthew was added by a scribe to try and make it conform to Luke: “There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.” (Luke 21:11)
Let's look at what else the Lord tells us about this. Way back in Deuteronomy He warned the Jews about what would happen to them if they didn't obey Him. They obviously didn't and haven't obeyed Him so the Lord would be bringing these things down on them: “The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess.” (Deuteronomy 28:21) And Leviticus: “And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands.” (Leviticus 26:25) Jeremiah also warned them about this: “Although they fast, I will not listen to their cry; though they offer burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Instead, I will destroy them with the sword, famine and plague.”” (Jeremiah 14:12) As did Ezekiel: ““ ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Strike your hands together and stamp your feet and cry out “Alas!” because of all the wicked and detestable practices of the house of Israel, for they will fall by the sword, famine and plague.” (Ezekiel 6:11) Speaking specifically of Armageddon, we're told: “I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.” (Ezekiel 38:22)
So there is a great deal of Biblical evidence to support the idea that diseases will be even worse during the Tribulation, since the Lord specifically told the Jews that was one of the ways He would punish them. But does that mean that Gentiles won't get those diseases? Sorry, but no, it doesn't mean that. The Lord also warns us Gentiles about diseases in Luke which I already posted, and in Revelation: “I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.” (Revelation 6:8)
By the way, there are several words used in the bible that basically mean diseases - pestilence, plague, and of course the word disease itself. Revelation 16 actually describes one of the plagues the Lord will send: “The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.” (Revelation 16:2) Keep in mind though that the word plague not only means a terrible disease, but also any terrible calamity, and it's used both ways in the Bible.
I do believe that we're seeing a small bit of this already. What we're seeing though is nothing compared to what will happen during the Tribulation. The stage has been set by a huge number of parents refusing to vaccinate their children, which has brought back all the diseases that we had almost wiped out before. Another thing that has helped set the stage for this during the Tribulation is the way antibiotics were over prescribed for so many years, and the way antibiotics are given to meat animals and milk producing animals etc which we then get in our food and drink, causing still more resistance to the antibiotics. Yet another area that's setting up the future stage is the vast number of people who take illegal drugs and now drugs that used to be illegal but are now called legal in many states. So the states that are calling these drugs like marijuana legal are actually helping to set things up for the Antichrist and the Tribulation. Yet another interesting thing has also helped set the stage - the huge numbers of immigrants who bring third world diseases into more civilized countries. Today our children commonly get diseases that were unheard of in civilized countries when I was growing up! You could only find them in third world countries. So all these things have made people sicker, perhaps more susceptible to disease... I don't really know, but it wouldn't surprise me. Another big factor is also the psychiatrists and psychologists giving out psych meds like candy today. Statistics show that more people in the US are on psych meds and are taking a whole lot more of them, then anywhere else in the world! I'm sure that all of this will make for a lot of fun for the Antichrist. I'm sure there's still more that could be said about this, but this is what was I thought of right away.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 14, 2020 14:04:49 GMT -5
I am not sure if you were saying to stay on the 'rapture' as a whole, or just the issue of invisible or visible?
Anyway: we do have an incident of God taking Philip away ( not THE rapture) but an interesting event. And even tho not the rapture, it seems like the eunuch saw Philip until he didn't...so in this taking away...it was visible.
[smear:#45b84a]"When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing." Acts 8:39[/smear:#e61999:1]
Another rapture like incident.... which is not helpful ( about it being visible) is when Paul was 'caught up" because it seems that was totally and only a personal event.
[smear:#6f2614]"2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise..." 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4[/smear:#19e61c:1]
I did find one commentary that said the Greek word for snatching 'secretly' was the word: klepto whereas, Harpazo ,( the word used for the rapture), is used to mean forcibly to snatch away, ( so not in 'secret).
But another thought I had is, that throughout the end times ( Tribulation), all the signs , judgments etc. that God pours out on the people left behind, are all very visible.... so the people can see them... ( well except for the one where they cannot see, total darkness) but it wouldn't make a lot of sense for God to do all these things in secret, if the idea is that some might be save in the last days, by the judgments etc.
So if the start ...the rapture...is to alert people their days are truly numbered how would they know it, if they did not 'see' the beginning....the rapture, as sort of the 'starting bell'?
My thought is, that also because this is a true statement Jesus made ( therefore God is going to make the end times perfectly clear)
[smear:#575a11]" You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times". Matthew 16:3[/smear:#a719e6:1]
And if we are to keep 'watch', it seems we must be able to see, and others will also:
[smear:#a77548]"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." Matthew 24:22[/smear:#344798:1]
and apparently day or night time is not an issue as to watching ( seeing):
[smear:#327e68]"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn." Mark 13:35[/smear:#e6194f:1]
I am thinking that they will not see Jesus at the rapture, ( or at least the Jews for sure) but I think its everybody too:
[smear:#cf55bc]"For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". Matthew 23:39[/smear:#57b059:1]
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Post by Cindy on Jan 15, 2020 9:49:09 GMT -5
I am not sure if you were saying to stay on the 'rapture' as a whole, or just the issue of invisible or visible?
Anyway: we do have an incident of God taking Philip away ( not THE rapture) but an interesting event. And even tho not the rapture, it seems like the eunuch saw Philip until he didn't...so in this taking away...it was visible.
[smear:#45b84a]"When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing." Acts 8:39[/smear:#e61999:1]
Another rapture like incident.... which is not helpful ( about it being visible) is when Paul was 'caught up" because it seems that was totally and only a personal event.
[smear:#6f2614]"2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise..." 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4[/smear:#19e61c:1]
I did find one commentary that said the Greek word for snatching 'secretly' was the word: klepto whereas, Harpazo ,( the word used for the rapture), is used to mean forcibly to snatch away, ( so not in 'secret).
But another thought I had is, that throughout the end times ( Tribulation), all the signs , judgments etc. that God pours out on the people left behind, are all very visible.... so the people can see them... ( well except for the one where they cannot see, total darkness) but it wouldn't make a lot of sense for God to do all these things in secret, if the idea is that some might be save in the last days, by the judgments etc.
So if the start ...the rapture...is to alert people their days are truly numbered how would they know it, if they did not 'see' the beginning....the rapture, as sort of the 'starting bell'?
My thought is, that also because this is a true statement Jesus made ( therefore God is going to make the end times perfectly clear)
[smear:#575a11]" You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times". Matthew 16:3[/smear:#a719e6:1]
And if we are to keep 'watch', it seems we must be able to see, and others will also:
[smear:#a77548]"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." Matthew 24:22[/smear:#344798:1]
and apparently day or night time is not an issue as to watching ( seeing):
[smear:#327e68]"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn." Mark 13:35[/smear:#e6194f:1]
I am thinking that they will not see Jesus at the rapture, ( or at least the Jews for sure) but I think its everybody too:
[smear:#cf55bc]"For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". Matthew 23:39[/smear:#57b059:1]
I meant the rapture as a whole...anything you weren't sure of or that you just want to share about it.
What you've written here is excellent! Great job!
Concerning 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 when Paul was caught up to the third heaven, there's an easy explanation for that one. To see it we just have to look at the reason for Paul's trip. God wasn't trying to show or teach others anything by what He did with Paul then. Instead, Paul's trip was totally private and was just for him. The Lord even forbade him from writing about it, which makes the fact that it was all just for Paul's benefit even more obvious. I'm not saying that Paul couldn't have used what he learned then to help others later; in fact, I'm sure he did. Because the experience obviously changed Paul and caused him to grow in his faith, and that alone would enable him to be of even more help to others. But there's a twofold reason for the rapture, as you said. First it's to remove all who are truly saved from this earth because our sins have already been paid for. Secondly, it's one last reminder to those who had been witnessed to before hand so that they might be saved. But the fact that this was a private experience, not to be shared, is the reason why it can't be used as a comparison for the rapture. Now, if he had been taken to heaven and others had seen or heard about it, and he came back and told everyone about it so that what happened to him affected others, then we could use it. Or if he had been taken and no one saw it and he didn't come back, we could use it then as well.
I'm a little confused about what you said here though: I am thinking that they will not see Jesus at the rapture, ( or at least the Jews for sure) but I think its everybody too: "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". Matthew 23:39. Who is "they" in the part I underlined? Are you saying the Jew's won't see Jesus at the rapture or that they will see Him? I hadn't thought of what Jesus said in conjunction with the rapture before, but now that you mention it, I believe you're right. (assuming I'm right in what I think you're saying lol) The Jewish people wouldn't be allowed to see Jesus when He comes for us at the rapture because of what Jesus told them. And if they won't be allowed to see Him, then I seriously doubt if anyone left behind will be able to. Perhaps they'll just see a bright light in the heavens (His glory). If so, boy the new agers would go nuts with that, saying it was a UFO or who knows what else.
If it's ok, I'd like to talk about the darkness that God is going to send during the tribulation, since you mentioned it. I'll go ahead and post this now and work on that next and post it shortly. Need to get another cup of coffee first.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 15, 2020 11:16:50 GMT -5
I'd like to take a much closer look at the plague of darkness that will come near the end of the tribulation. I believe I mentioned before that many of the last plagues are similar to the ones that God sent on Egypt, and this is one of them. But let's start by looking at a couple of places in Revelation where the darkness is mentioned. In this first one we see that the darkness is associated with Satan and his demons as the abyss is where some of the worst demons are held. “When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.” (Revelation 9:2) There's also the judgments that cause a third of the sun, moon and stars to be darkened, but that doesn't cause the world to become black as night. This is the actual plague God will send on the earth: “The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.” (Revelation 16:10–11) Now let's look at the similar plague that God sent to Egypt. This one tells us why God sent the plague. “He sent darkness and made the land dark— for had they not rebelled against his words?” (Psalm 105:28) The next one though gives us some important information that's missing from the one in Revelation, yet seems to be part of the one in Revelation as well. “Then the LORD said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt—darkness that can be felt.” So Moses stretched out his hand toward the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three days. No one could see anyone else or leave his place for three days. Yet all the Israelites had light in the places where they lived.” (Exodus 10:21–23)
If we look back at the one in Revelation, we see it says they gnawed their tongues in agony, apparently from the darkness. And we see in the one sent on Egypt that the darkness could be felt and apparently caused them misery, which would be why the one sent in Revelation would say that they were in agony. Yet another scripture speaks of something similar: ““Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’” (Matthew 22:13)
Another interesting part is that the sent on Egypt the darkness only affected the Egyptians, not the Israelites, and only the country of Egypt was affected, not the entire world. The one we're told about in Revelation says the Beasts kingdom was plunged into darkness. To me that would suggest pretty much the whole world except the two places that the Lord keeps safe for the Jews to run to - perhaps Petra and Bozrah. Or the Lord might make it so that in individual homes or caves where the saved are located, electricity would work or that candles would give off light for them, etc.
Another scripture tells us that the "Day of the Lord" is considered a day of darkness: “Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand— a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was of old nor ever will be in ages to come.” (Joel 2:1–2)
What really gets me about this darkness though is that it can be felt, and that it's terrifying. (the words used in the original language get across the fact that it's terrifying.) Knowing that this darkness is associated with, or linked to Satan and his demons could tell us partly why it's terrifying. But I've had another picture of it in my mind for years now. I don't know if it's true or not, but if nothing else, it's interesting. I see the darkness as a visible picture of all the sins committed on the earth since the Lord made it. It reminds me of times we're told things like, “The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.” (Genesis 4:10) In other words, when we sin, the sin doesn't simply disappear as soon as it's finished, somehow it stays. We know from God's word that sin is contagious, and that it spreads. We know that back just before God sent the flood, He said that men were so evil that not one of them had even a single thought that wasn't evil. That's pretty horrible! And that makes God's destruction of the people seem much more reasonable. Jesus told us it would be like that before His Second Coming. So I see the evil that we do and that we think, growing around us, and spreading. Then the Lord will rescue us from the earth before He unleashes His wrath on those who are left. Considering how evil it's going to be by the end of the tribulation, I can just imagine that this horrible terrifying and painful darkness of sin will surround everyone that's not saved and is without God's protection.
And look at the verse in Revelation in context: “The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him. The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.” (Revelation 16:8–11) So the people know not only that God sent the darkness, but also that they need to repent of their sins, but they refuse to do so. That's one of the other reasons I've seen the darkness connected to sin.
Anyway, my idea is probably just my imagination, but it is a very interesting judgment to me. What do you think of it all?
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 15, 2020 12:30:11 GMT -5
Yes, you wrote what I was trying to say LOL
Cindy: "The Jewish people wouldn't be allowed to see Jesus when He comes for us at the rapture because of what Jesus told them. And if they won't be allowed to see Him, then I seriously doubt if anyone left behind will be able to. Perhaps they'll just see a bright light in the heavens (His glory)".
That was what I was trying to say :)
Also when you wrote this, i have to agree it is a terrifying thought!!
'In other words, when we sin, the sin doesn't simply disappear as soon as it's finished, somehow it stays. We know from God's word that sin is contagious, and that it spreads".
But for Christians, if they have confessed, and repented of them, then at some point God does not look at them again right?
/font comic sans MS]
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 15, 2020 13:44:47 GMT -5
So I will go back and take a further look at the rapture.
There is a big debate as to when it will happen and some people argue there is no such thing because the English word 'rapture' does not appear in the Bible..... because the Bible was not written in English!
However can one explain these verses in any other way? I think they make it clear a 'rapture' WILL happen!!!
[smear:#4d1246] "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord". 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17[/smear:#4ce619:1] [smear:#9c19e6] "51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed". 1 Corinthians 15:51-52[/smear:#d8d612:1]
Now there could possibly be some confusion as to why some professing believers are NOT raptured. However, not everyone who says they are a believer are in fact, born again, saved believers....and so no they will not be raptured. My thought is tho, that perhaps many of them will be among the first to become true born again believers!!
Another point is that although churches are mention it Revelation chapters 1-3....it is no longer mentioned in the next 13 chapters, until near the end:
[smear:#10645d]“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” Revelation 22:16 [/smear:#023006:1]
And, we not only do not hear anymore about the church, but we do hear about 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes in Revelation...spreading the gospel....because the church has been removed.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 16, 2020 12:31:05 GMT -5
Yes, you wrote what I was trying to say LOL
Cindy: "The Jewish people wouldn't be allowed to see Jesus when He comes for us at the rapture because of what Jesus told them. And if they won't be allowed to see Him, then I seriously doubt if anyone left behind will be able to. Perhaps they'll just see a bright light in the heavens (His glory)".
That was what I was trying to say :)
Also when you wrote this, i have to agree it is a terrifying thought!!
'In other words, when we sin, the sin doesn't simply disappear as soon as it's finished, somehow it stays. We know from God's word that sin is contagious, and that it spreads".
But for Christians, if they have confessed, and repented of them, then at some point God does not look at them again right?
/font comic sans MS] It's not that God doesn't "see" or know about our sins any more, He chooses not to dwell on them or think of them as connected with us. Remember, when He considers our life, He knows He has put Jesus perfect life on our account, and therefore there are no sins on our account. That would be the legal way of looking at it. But although the Bible uses the words, "I will remember your sins no more" (Isaiah 43:25), being God, He can't forget. His memory is perfect. He simply chooses not to link them to us any longer, not to bring them up to us or to anyone else, including Himself ever again.
Some people have the mistaken notion that when God forgives them of their sin, that He takes away the consequences of what they've done. That's simply not true. He forgives them, yes; but the consequences of sin are still in effect. Although we don't like to hear that in regards to our own sins, we do like it when we consider that we're to forgive others the same way God forgives us. Because that lets us know that the person will still have to deal with the consequences of their sin even after we've forgiven them. BUT that does not mean that we are to dish out any kind of punishment! The consequences of sin are written into the fabric of our world, just like gravity and the other laws God has ordained for this life. So the consequences I'm speaking of could be any number of things depending on the sin. If it was adultery, it could be getting a disease, and could include ruining their marriage and being divorced, or even losing their children. If it was something that was against the law, it would include any punishment the law calls for. In a way it's like how we deal with our children. When they've done something wrong, they're punished, even though we forgive them. We certainly don't let them get away with something just because they've said their sorry. If we did, the child would quickly discover that the way out of any discipline was to say they were sorry and would say that whether they were or not.
So I will go back and take a further look at the rapture.
There is a big debate as to when it will happen and some people argue there is no such thing because the English word 'rapture' does not appear in the Bible..... because the Bible was not written in English!
However can one explain these verses in any other way? I think they make it clear a 'rapture' WILL happen!!!
[smear:#4d1246] "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord". 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17[/smear:#4ce619:1] [smear:#9c19e6] "51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed". 1 Corinthians 15:51-52[/smear:#d8d612:1]
Now there could possibly be some confusion as to why some professing believers are NOT raptured. However, not everyone who says they are a believer are in fact, born again, saved believers....and so no they will not be raptured. My thought is tho, that perhaps many of them will be among the first to become true born again believers!!
Another point is that although churches are mention it Revelation chapters 1-3....it is no longer mentioned in the next 13 chapters, until near the end:
[smear:#10645d]“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” Revelation 22:16 [/smear:#023006:1]
And, we not only do not hear anymore about the church, but we do hear about 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes in Revelation...spreading the gospel....because the church has been removed.
Good! But if you really have come to terms with what the Bible says about the rapture as far as it being invisible or visible, you can go on to other things if you want to. I do want to add however that the Bible does not say whether the rapture will be visible or not. My argument was based on circumstantial evidence, showing that all the other times that we're aware of, it was visible. Oh yes, and no one ever left any clothing, false teeth, or other things that were medically implanted behind.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 16, 2020 13:45:44 GMT -5
Some may still say that God is too slow in His time table of 'getting the show on the road, so to speak).... Peter actually addressed this, and in a way, Peter does not dispute that there has been a delay, instead, he gives the reason for it: [smear:#125221] "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9[/smear:#ab2f9f:1]
God has patience, but men in general do not ( or nothing compared to the patience of God)...we want what we want and we want it now!!! And when God does not do something as quickly as we want, it can quickly turn many people ( unbelievers who may have 'believed' in 'god' but not GOD) to doubting and then scoffing.
People would rather ignore that God said about timing:
[smear:#4a8334] “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36[/smear:#69378e:1]
I think even true believers are often torn between "Come now Lord", and please tarry..... so my loved ones might be saved.
I think this verse could bring up the whole issue of God's sovereign will and man's free will, election and predestination...but since this is about the rapture, this is probably not the righttime to get into that ( get it ...we are dealing with 'time'... right 'now' ( another time word..... :) what is in my tea??? LOL)
I think I will just leave it for now....
God is Love but also is just.... this verse seems to me, to highlight His love and thus His patience. But I am a strong believer in predestination which so many hate, even some believers.
Still, God's love is a given:
[smear:#034d03]" Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel"? 2 Peter 3:9[/smear:#15ead4:1]
In any case, God timing, is not often the timing we want for Him to do things..... but it seems kind of clear to me, that His timing.... prevails ....over ours!
Its kind of funny, in our world today....fast is KING... in fact, we seemingly now need G5 ,so our computers can be one second faster ( or something like that LOL)
However, in a way, God is in praise of slowness
( I don't know why but this reminded me of the old children's tale of the hare and the turtle LOL) Having patience is not to be sniffed at!
This also speaks directly to me. I have always hated math, logic etc. and so for years Leonard has been doing sudokus. I would have nothing to do with them ugh! I have stuck firmly to crossword puzzles.
Then a few weeks ago I ran across a youtube channel ( I have no idea how it happened), and there was this sudoku expert guy who started with the very very basic and will go to the hardest puzzles. I have been watching them, and trying those puzzles with only one star , and now I am on 2 stars sudoku puzzles....
The point is....I have learned I am always in toooooo much of a hurry!!! I am discovering in order to solve the puzzles...I have to look carefully, slow down, and think.....bah humbug LOL But yeah patience IS a virtue....way more than we ( me/I am) are happy with in these times
Well, now that things are speeding up towards end times, I am both happy and somewhat distressed, because I hate the sped up increase in sin, in calling good, bad, and bad good etc etc.
Just as an aside ( this whole post is becoming an aside) but still... there are other areas in our lives where slow is better:
[smear:#e6192a] "Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; James 1:19[/smear:#3fe619:1]
Unfortunately. some use the verse about God being so patient, thinking they can live their lives in all their pet sins and then have a deathbed conversion. I am not saying, that could never happen, however, the Bible only tells us of one such conversion, and that was with one of the sinners who were crucified alongside of Jesus. This is not the hope or meaning of God's patience and delay.
Anyone could die the very next second, so planning to enjoying sinning until you are very old and on your death bed convert, is foolish. And it is more likely your heart will continue to harden ( like Pharaoh in the Bible) , should you continue to an old age. God's love, does not cancel out His justice.
Back to the rapture; I can't remember if I gave this comforting verse ( especially as we see thing spiraling out of control faster and faster) [smear:#d36d86]"wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come". I thessalonians 1:10[/smear:#6eab79:1]
It sometimes seem hard to believe things are going to get so much worse.
I have to say that yesterday, I saw some new curriculum for the youngest of school children, and even tho I thought they had already been presenting the worst degrading sexual practices to small children.... I was wrong, I saw the saddest most horrifying list of things to be covered ( like bondage etc etc. etc.)
Perhaps, it was fake news....but it was a Christian web site that to date has been accurate .
Still even IF it were wrong.....I suspect, it will soon be real.
Not to mention, the new baby doll for kids that has come out ( well its in sold in Russia, but I haven't any doubt whatsoever, it will be on the market here in no time!!)..... The doll looks just like a girl ( blond hair, cute dress, .....and a penis)!!
Plus, kids going to library story hour with drag queens ( some that have been in prison as pedophiles) And the books they read to the little one in school about a transgender child. etc etc.
It is easy to despair with this and so many other things....and without the Lord, I can see that this increasing evil, would in fact, by its emptiness and evil, drive many to suicide.
So to know God's patience will not last forever, and that He will deliver us from His wrath to come, is comforting.
Some that don't believe may feel, that is unfair.....
No, that is mercy to those who love Him,
and even in the tribulation He is actually still showing mercy..... but then,
He is never unfair..... but He is JUST, and the time will come when He will give people justice as they deserve.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 17, 2020 11:50:08 GMT -5
Some may still say that God is too slow in His time table of 'getting the show on the road, so to speak).... Peter actually addressed this, and in a way, Peter does not dispute that there has been a delay, instead, he gives the reason for it: [smear:#125221] "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9[/smear:#ab2f9f:1]
God has patience, but men in general do not ( or nothing compared to the patience of God)...we want what we want and we want it now!!! And when God does not do something as quickly as we want, it can quickly turn many people ( unbelievers who may have 'believed' in 'god' but not GOD) to doubting and then scoffing.
People would rather ignore that God said about timing:
[smear:#4a8334] “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36[/smear:#69378e:1]
I think even true believers are often torn between "Come now Lord", and please tarry..... so my loved ones might be saved.
I think this verse could bring up the whole issue of God's sovereign will and man's free will, election and predestination...but since this is about the rapture, this is probably not the right time to get into that ( get it ...we are dealing with 'time'... right 'now' ( another time word..... :) what is in my tea??? LOL)
I think I will just leave it for now....
God is Love but also is just.... this verse seems to me, to highlight His love and thus His patience. But I am a strong believer in predestination which so many hate, even some believers.
Still, God's love is a given:
[smear:#034d03]" Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel"? 2 Peter 3:9[/smear:#15ead4:1]
In any case, God timing, is not often the timing we want for Him to do things..... but it seems kind of clear to me, that His timing.... prevails ....over ours!
Its kind of funny, in our world today....fast is KING... in fact, we seemingly now need G5 ,so our computers can be one second faster ( or something like that LOL)
However, in a way, God is in praise of slowness
( I don't know why but this reminded me of the old children's tale of the hare and the turtle LOL) Having patience is not to be sniffed at!
This also speaks directly to me. I have always hated math, logic etc. and so for years Leonard has been doing sudokus. I would have nothing to do with them ugh! I have stuck firmly to crossword puzzles.
Then a few weeks ago I ran across a youtube channel ( I have no idea how it happened), and there was this sudoku expert guy who started with the very very basic and will go to the hardest puzzles. I have been watching them, and trying those puzzles with only one star , and now I am on 2 stars sudoku puzzles....
The point is....I have learned I am always in toooooo much of a hurry!!! I am discovering in order to solve the puzzles...I have to look carefully, slow down, and think.....bah humbug LOL But yeah patience IS a virtue....way more than we ( me/I am) are happy with in these times
Well, now that things are speeding up towards end times, I am both happy and somewhat distressed, because I hate the sped up increase in sin, in calling good, bad, and bad good etc etc.
Just as an aside ( this whole post is becoming an aside) but still... there are other areas in our lives where slow is better:
[smear:#e6192a] "Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; James 1:19[/smear:#3fe619:1]
Unfortunately. some use the verse about God being so patient, thinking they can live their lives in all their pet sins and then have a deathbed conversion. I am not saying, that could never happen, however, the Bible only tells us of one such conversion, and that was with one of the sinners who were crucified alongside of Jesus. This is not the hope or meaning of God's patience and delay.
Anyone could die the very next second, so planning to enjoying sinning until you are very old and on your death bed convert, is foolish. And it is more likely your heart will continue to harden ( like Pharaoh in the Bible) , should you continue to an old age. God's love, does not cancel out His justice.
Back to the rapture; I can't remember if I gave this comforting verse ( especially as we see thing spiraling out of control faster and faster) [smear:#d36d86]"wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come". I thessalonians 1:10[/smear:#6eab79:1]
It sometimes seem hard to believe things are going to get so much worse.
I have to say that yesterday, I saw some new curriculum for the youngest of school children, and even tho I thought they had already been presenting the worst degrading sexual practices to small children.... I was wrong, I saw the saddest most horrifying list of things to be covered ( like bondage etc etc. etc.)
Perhaps, it was fake news....but it was a Christian web site that to date has been accurate .
Still even IF it were wrong.....I suspect, it will soon be real.
Not to mention, the new baby doll for kids that has come out ( well its in sold in Russia, but I haven't any doubt whatsoever, it will be on the market here in no time!!)..... The doll looks just like a girl ( blond hair, cute dress, .....and a penis)!!
Plus, kids going to library story hour with drag queens ( some that have been in prison as pedophiles) And the books they read to the little one in school about a transgender child. etc etc.
It is easy to despair with this and so many other things....and without the Lord, I can see that this increasing evil, would in fact, by its emptiness and evil, drive many to suicide.
So to know God's patience will not last forever, and that He will deliver us from His wrath to come, is comforting.
Some that don't believe may feel, that is unfair.....
No, that is mercy to those who love Him,
and even in the tribulation He is actually still showing mercy..... but then,
He is never unfair..... but He is JUST, and the time will come when He will give people justice as they deserve.
Very good!
There are many different ways people have interpreted this verse: ““No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:36) Some say that Jesus is talking about the rapture here; others say it's about the tribulation; still others say He's talking about His Second Coming. This is one of the ways people get around God's Word and try and come up with a date for either the rapture or the Second Coming. The scriptural teachers all agree that it speaks about His Second Coming. As for the rapture, obviously no one could know when that would happen since it could happen quite literally at any moment, which is what the apostles all taught and believed themselves, and is just as true today as it was then...if not more true!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 17, 2020 12:35:09 GMT -5
One note about the 1 Thessalonians 1:10 verse:
[smear:#19e631]"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath".[/smear:#e119e6:2]
There are some who hold to a mid tribulation point of view.....which means they think believers will go thru the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation and then be raptured.
I am not sure if they are thinking that the first 3 1/2 years after the rapture will in fact be peaceful? The anti-Christ may be 'talking up 'peace and safety.... but no Almost, right at the very beginning ( never mind the chaos of all the believers being gone), Peace is removed ( and many other things will happen durning the first 3 1/2 years):
[smear:#1d7147]"3 When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword". Revelation 6: 3,4[/smear:#2fa195:2]
So the Thessalonian verse above does not say, Jesus will take us out of the on going tribulation wrath .... Rather...
from the coming wrath.
I just had a silly thought, but yet it is true for me. I got a bit side tracked and was thinking about why are we not told the exact day and even hour Jesus would return? See, I need you to keep me on point arrgghh
[smear:#e619a5]"36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only". Matthew 24:36[/smear:#19e67e:2] Not that this verse is about the timing of the rapture or tribulation...but I am just pointing out about God does not give us the day and hour of events to come.
But IF he had done so....this is just what would happen to me....(see how I got side tracked)?
Well, if I knew for a fact, Jesus was going to rapture me today in one hour.... I think I would be so thrilled, excited, overwhelmed, joy filled etc. that anything my Lord might have wanted me to do in this last hour would be set aside, forgotten and totally side tracked. However, what Jesus may have wanted me to do this last hour, might have been the very thing that would have been used by God to have saved a soul or even planted the seed, that would have taken fruition during the tribulation ( when they would be saved)!!!
Nevertheless, and on the other hand, we do have indications of the time:
[smear:#e64a19]"4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief". I Thessalonians 5:4[/smear:#1ee619:2]
And that can encourage us to do the good works God wants us to do:
[smear:#215e5b]"10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them". Ephesians 2: 10[/smear:#e619e3:2]
Well back to the rapture and signs..... although the signing of the 'peace' treaty with Israel and the anti-Christ, happens at the start of the tribulation..... there first ,had to be the 'nation 'of Israel, once again.
It is clear from scripture Israel once was a nation, but eventually (and for about 1, 900 plus .....give or take a few) years, there was no Israel, and so, no peace treaty could have happened.
It just occurred to me, satan must not have been happy to have allowed that to happen, and yet, he could not get 'his' time otherwise.... I am not sure who he hates more, Israel or believers. I know he hates all humans, but I think he has a special hatred for the Jews first, and then Christians.
It is said, the Israel is God's time clock, so keep your eyes on her.
Still, we have to walk a fine line between seeing every dust up with Israel, by her neighbors, who hate her. .... because, frankly Israel has always been hated.
Tho I personally think things may be beginning to line up with what will happen to and in Israel....we are not in the tribulation, so what we see and hear in the Middle East news, is similar to all the signs... they are increasing.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 18, 2020 12:20:32 GMT -5
I just wanted to mention that tho the world 'seems' to becoming filled more and more with Atheists, yet, in fact, man is a spiritual being.
Most non-believers in God do in truth 'worship', I personally believe because of our fallen sin nature, we all (believers struggle with this also) 'worship'......self.
And throughout history there have been all sorts of pagan 'religions'. People will often declare that they are 'spiritual' but by that, they mean .......... almost anything..... BUT..... Christianity!!
For example are seeing an ever increasing rise in witchcraft for example.
But also the environment is becoming a huge area to worship climate change and save the trees, animals and the 'earth ( Gaia)
[smear:#e61942]"....they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen." Romans: I:25[/smear:#4fe619:3]
The 'creature' is the Creation.....the world....the environment.
And now most countries are pushing all manner of laws etc. to protect the air, forests, animals and so on.
Even President Nixon waaay back in 1970 said in his State of the Union address :
“in the coming decade we must make peace with nature.”
Even further back: “A nation that destroys its soils destroys itself. Forests are the lungs of our land, purifying the air and giving fresh strength to our people.” —Franklin D. Roosevelt President
I only feel angry when I see waste. When I see people throwing away things we could use.” —Mother Teresa
“The environment is where we all meet; where we all have a mutual interest; it is the one thing all of us share.” -Lady Bird Johnson
“The Earth will not continue to offer its harvest, except with faithful stewardship. We cannot say we love the land and then take steps to destroy it for use by future generations.” —John Paul II
“The Earth is a fine place and worth fighting for.” —Ernest Hemingway
I have wondered in the past if the environment might also be a 'selling' point of the Anti-Christ and things like what president Jimmy Carter said quote:
“Like music and art, love of nature is a common language that can transcend political or social boundaries.” —Jimmy Carter president
and Al Gore said:
...it ought to be possible to establish a coordinated global program to accomplish the strategic goal of completely eliminating the internal combustion engine over, say, a twenty-five-year period."
And on and on it goes Strangely, Vice President Al Gore also said this quote below, and in a way, he actually was right... but not like he thought:
"Unless we act boldly and quickly to deal with the underlying causes of global warming, our world will undergo a string of terrible catastrophes".
Indeed, a string of terrible catastrophes are coming, but its not because we use too much hair spray, or because we eat meat and cow flatulences are polluting the air, or because we drive cars etc.
And speaking of the environment ( and even all of Creation) the Bible also says this about it:
[smear:#0b5268]"19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now". Romans 8: 19-22[/smear:#e61947:1]
I am not really into the tribulation yet and will be dealing with these later ( I think)....
but to Mr. Gores 'prediction' of a string of terrible catastrophes...
how about these catastrophes predicted in the Bible by God...... (waaaaaay before Mr Goreby about 2,000 plus years) [smear:#911277]
"7 The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.
( as a small preview, the burning up.... makes me think of Australia right now)
8 The second angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
10 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter." Revelation 8: 8-11[/smear:#0d6a2b:1]
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 19, 2020 18:36:22 GMT -5
I can't remember if I mentioned this sign
[smear:#e6199d]"12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold". Matthew 34:12[/smear:#2b62a1:1]
It seems to me like lawlessness is indeed growing.
In one way, it might be hard to prove it is increasing..... in that I think by nature we all break the law, ( even believers) frequently and people have always do so.....we are sinners ( and therefore law breakers by our very nature)
What is amazing about being law breakers is we have so many ways of excuses:
[smear:#1a662c]"14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them" Romans 2:14, 15[/smear:#7a206c:1]
Some will say, they didn't know it was a law, or there are just too many 'stupid' laws, or it fun to get away with breaking the law ( it's a game), or they are above the law, the law is for other people but not them, since there are no 'absolutes' laws are relative,
But this will be true in churches as well ( we are seeing churches ignore or change their very core principles to please peoples self-centered pet sins).
When people refuse to submit to God, or any authorities ( and thus God's rules or man's rules) It is because self is ruling and when we are focused only on ourselves, love on all levels grow cold ( sacrificial love lessens and thus love for God and others grow cold).
Lawless rebellion is seldom loving, or thoughtful of others.
However, not all will be heartless but many and more and more will, both in the world and even in the churches.
And it seems to me, more and more children, are disobedient (often off the charts), and many teens are also. It seems like the gangster life is emulated and held up as the only way to be strong. More and more a mother's natural love for their unborn babies has grown so cold they now brag about their abortions, as empowering. Other's mother who find that their children are a burden keeping them from their fun, find ways to kill their children.
It's not that this never happened in the past, cruelty has always existed, what is different is how far and wide and fast it is spreading. The normal values and morals of many peoples of the world are changing, and its becoming less and less self sacrificing, less love to and for others, etc.
I remember back in the 60's it was purported to be a time of peace and love.....but actually it was a time of growing lawlessness. Instead what I see is more and more of this:
[smear:#3f8632] "1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God" 2 Timothy 3:1-4 [/smear:#9719e6:1]
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 20, 2020 11:07:34 GMT -5
Today is going to be crazy busy...I did not realize the children would be all home today, and I have to go to hospital for a test....so this may be short! I should already be there lest there arises a 'dust up' between them sigh!
I suppose I ought to briefly mention, that some oppose the pre-tribulation rapture ( tho NOT a rapture), on the grounds of their saying its is a 'new' theory, that originated with individuals such as John Darby in the 1800's.
First, let me say, I never understood this at all, because, it seems clear to me, that its in the Bible ( so how does it become recent?) When, I originally thought the rapture happened post tribulation, I did not even know about this Darby situation. However some much earlier examples ( than Darby) ( as written about by By Robin Schumacher in The Christian Post) were:
Saint Ephraem, a Syriac Christian deacon c. 306 – 373 wrote:
"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."
Also, Shepherd of Hermas, a Christian literary work of the late first half of the second century, and was considered canonical scripture by some of the early Church fathers such as Irenaeus, and was popular among Christians in the 2nd century etc., had this to say:
"Go therefore, and declare to the elect of the Lord His mighty works, and tell them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If therefore ye prepare yourselves beforehand, and repent (and turn) unto the Lord with your whole heart, ye shall be able to escape it....."
But just what would be the logical point to go up in the air, if Jesus was returning to earth to stay for the 1,000 years at that time?
1[smear:#0f3c36]6 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord". 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17[/smear:#9f077e:1]
Also if it were a post Tribulation rapture, then what would Revelation 3:10 mean? [smear:#7217af] ".....I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 3:10[/smear:#1c4e06:1]
Obviously the believers are being kept from a great trial that the world world will be subjected to.
One hint ( as least, I think this is a good one) is found as far back as Genesis:
[smear:#852e22]"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?" Genesis 18:25.[/smear:#126531:1]
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Post by Cindy on Jan 21, 2020 10:36:42 GMT -5
You've done a great job Barbara! I've really enjoyed reading all that you've written so far!
I saw something in my study of Isaiah the other day that I'd like to share with you. I never thought of it quite this way before.... see what you think. First, these are the scriptures I'll be speaking about:
“Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, “The LORD will surely exclude me from his people.” And let not any eunuch complain, “I am only a dry tree.” For this is what the LORD says: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant— to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant— these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.”” (Isaiah 56:3–7) In God's timeline, this takes place after the tribulation, when Jesus begins His Kingdom. If you recall, anyone who was deformed at all, (which included eunuchs) could not serve in God's temple. Just to be sure I wasn't making a mistake, I also looked up the word "eunuch": Eunuch - 1: a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace. 2: a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals. 3: one that lacks virility or power. When I've read these scriptures in the past, I never thought much about them because eunuchs aren't or rather weren't something we saw a lot of. Today however, they're becoming a new group that's growing, although we no longer call them eunuchs. Today we call them "transgender men who are trying to become women".
So what does this mean? To me it's amazing because it shows yet again that God knew this would happen; He knew men would become surgically altered in order to pretend they're a woman! And he knows that some will apparently live through the tribulation and be saved at some point. But, because they've been surgically altered, they would think they can't go in the temple. So God assures them that it's their heart that matters the most to Him, and those who are saved can not only go in the temple to worship but can even serve in God's temple! Yes, even though they aren't Jewish and are deformed! Both of those things in the past would have kept them out of the temple, but not anymore. Now God welcomes everyone into His temple that is saved! Here are some other scriptures that back up what I've said: “No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the LORD.” (Deuteronomy 23:1) Also: Exodus 12:43, Leviticus 21:17–21, Deuteronomy 23:1–3, and Deuteronomy 23:7–8.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 21, 2020 10:38:52 GMT -5
By the way, just because some people say that Darby was the first to teach about the rapture, which as you showed isn't true anyway, there was someone else who taught about it even before the people you mentioned.... Paul!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 21, 2020 12:27:46 GMT -5
LOLOL so true....Paul did teach about it first!!!!!
Wow! That was fascinating about transgender men ( aka eunuchs) and that God foreknew this would be happening more and more and more. I have also seen a few videos of ( more than we are ever told of) such men, who now greatly regret the change. Many of them were very young, but that seemingly did not make the medical people who were willing to give them drugs and do surgery, think, to wait a bit, to see if this was just a phase.
And really, I think a lot of young girls before becoming teens etc. think boys have 'cooties', and their best friend is their girl friend..
but today they are being told this is because they too are transgender.....when in fact, in a few years, they will discover boys. At best, being told that leaves them confused, but more and more it means transitioning also!!
I think satan is working the hardest he ever has ( in sooooo many areas at once, but this is a super big one!!!!)!!!!!
Yesterday was kind of stressful.....the ultra sound appointment was sooooo messed up and the kids were home from school, and both landlord and landlady were down from Portland etc etc.
But actually the last three days were a whirlwind, and I am so tired today and achy!
I can't tell how much it meant to me that you said I was doing, ok....with this study on End Times....because, I thought I was not ( it seems to unorganized and so on)......
I actually was going and/or planning to tell you today, that I thought I should quit on it... and go back to doing a book in the Bible with you.
Especially since I am having a hard time being so tired and achy ( and a wee tiny bit down....for some reason that crazy appointment was like the last straw....cuz I was already tired)
but I may work on it today and see what you think... if we should continue on this or what????
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 21, 2020 13:36:38 GMT -5
I Think I mentioned before that after the rapture, the beginning of the tribulation begins with what 'SEEMS' to be a good thing.....a 'PEACE' treaty that the anti-Christ will make for Israel
[smear:#093c0d]27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. Daniel 9:27[/smear:#811119:1]
We have in scripture, a telling of what will happen both here on earth but also what is happening in Heaven. In Heaven there is an opening of seven 'seals'
The first seal opened is the revealing of the anti-Christ.
[smear:#288d2c]"Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer". Revelation 6:1-2[/smear:#c40b98:1]
I think it's important to understand, that who ever the anti-Christ is, he won't be revealed until AFTER the rapture takes place. I think that since satan does not know the timing of the end times, he may have had a man in place throughout the centuries ( like perhaps Hilter, Mao, Stalin, etc etc.)
[smear:#b13505]Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. I John 2:18[/smear:#186519:1]
So it is not only useless, but wrong to point to this person or that and say they will be the anti-Christ. I know some people now point to President Trump because he is about to reveal a peace plan for Israel.....but unless the rapture should happen before, and he remains behind and then reveals his plan....NO!
However, I think when people first see the anti-Christ it is not going to be immediately clear he is a horrible monster, but rather will seem like a Messiah who is going to solve all the world's problems ( starting with the unrest in the middle east).
It does not mention arrows in the first seal, so I think maybe at first the anti-Christ will be so charismatic, he may not have to start off killing millions of humans. Maybe, rather, he will be of course the 'ultimate' anti-Christ, and will win many by signs and wonders:
[smear:#3e6308]"24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect". Matthew 24:24[/smear:#e6191e:1]
Frankly, it seems like, we are already being lied to almost non stop today! won't even use politics as an example, just look at marketing of almost any item or food, or supplement etc. Just one small example out of trillions of example: look at all the lose weight pills each year it is a new wonder herb, berry, food item etc all promising, you don't have to do anything else, but buy the product and within days you will see the pounds 'magically' come off... Actually what we see is how 'magically' our money is spent on snake oil! Yes, I have also been fooled on occasion.... Now it could be there is a 'tiny' bit of truth, in whatever latest weight loss supplement comes out ( it might have a very small effect on one's metabolism but it might also be dangerous in large doses and it is NOT the cure all it is touted as ( that is a LIE!!!)
so one aspect of end times is we are living in a world of deceit, and lies but bigger and bigger lies are coming!!!
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Post by Cindy on Jan 22, 2020 10:31:25 GMT -5
LOLOL so true....Paul did teach about it first!!!!!
Wow! That was fascinating about transgender men ( aka eunuchs) and that God foreknew this would be happening more and more and more. I have also seen a few videos of ( more than we are ever told of) such men, who now greatly regret the change. Many of them were very young, but that seemingly did not make the medical people who were willing to give them drugs and do surgery, think, to wait a bit, to see if this was just a phase.
And really, I think a lot of young girls before becoming teens etc. think boys have 'cooties', and their best friend is their girl friend..
but today they are being told this is because they too are transgender.....when in fact, in a few years, they will discover boys. At best, being told that leaves them confused, but more and more it means transitioning also!!
I think satan is working the hardest he ever has ( in sooooo many areas at once, but this is a super big one!!!!)!!!!!
Yesterday was kind of stressful.....the ultra sound appointment was sooooo messed up and the kids were home from school, and both landlord and landlady were down from Portland etc etc.
But actually the last three days were a whirlwind, and I am so tired today and achy!
I can't tell how much it meant to me that you said I was doing, ok....with this study on End Times....because, I thought I was not ( it seems to unorganized and so on)......
I actually was going and/or planning to tell you today, that I thought I should quit on it... and go back to doing a book in the Bible with you.
Especially since I am having a hard time being so tired and achy ( and a wee tiny bit down....for some reason that crazy appointment was like the last straw....cuz I was already tired)
but I may work on it today and see what you think... if we should continue on this or what????
Hon, you really are doing a great job. Anyone reading this would learn a great deal. I especially liked how you broke down each of the characteristics that Paul said people would be like during this time. But then I've also especially liked a number of things you've done lol. It's up to you though. I certainly don't want to add any more stress to your life, so if you would rather do something else, that's fine. If however you'd like to continue with this, that too would be fine. I've sure enjoyed reading what you have to say though. And I'll tell you something else...it's only shown me that what I've thought for a very long time is true....that you're more then ready to be a teacher and not just a student. Obviously we'll all always be students since we can never learn all there is to learn from God's Word in our life time, but you do very well teaching as well. Look at how Marlene (anna) loves what you write!
I Think I mentioned before that after the rapture, the beginning of the tribulation begins with what 'SEEMS' to be a good thing.....a 'PEACE' treaty that the anti-Christ will make for Israel
[smear:#093c0d]27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. Daniel 9:27[/smear:#811119:1]
We have in scripture, a telling of what will happen both here on earth but also what is happening in Heaven. In Heaven there is an opening of seven 'seals'
The first seal opened is the revealing of the anti-Christ.
[smear:#288d2c]"Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer". Revelation 6:1-2[/smear:#c40b98:1]
I think it's important to understand, that who ever the anti-Christ is, he won't be revealed until AFTER the rapture takes place. I think that since satan does not know the timing of the end times, he may have had a man in place throughout the centuries ( like perhaps Hilter, Mao, Stalin, etc etc.)
[smear:#b13505]Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. I John 2:18[/smear:#186519:1]
So it is not only useless, but wrong to point to this person or that and say they will be the anti-Christ. I know some people now point to President Trump because he is about to reveal a peace plan for Israel.....but unless the rapture should happen before, and he remains behind and then reveals his plan....NO!
However, I think when people first see the anti-Christ it is not going to be immediately clear he is a horrible monster, but rather will seem like a Messiah who is going to solve all the world's problems ( starting with the unrest in the middle east).
It does not mention arrows in the first seal, so I think maybe at first the anti-Christ will be so charismatic, he may not have to start off killing millions of humans. Maybe, rather, he will be of course the 'ultimate' anti-Christ, and will win many by signs and wonders:
[smear:#3e6308]"24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect". Matthew 24:24[/smear:#e6191e:1]
Frankly, it seems like, we are already being lied to almost non stop today! won't even use politics as an example, just look at marketing of almost any item or food, or supplement etc. Just one small example out of trillions of example: look at all the lose weight pills each year it is a new wonder herb, berry, food item etc all promising, you don't have to do anything else, but buy the product and within days you will see the pounds 'magically' come off... Actually what we see is how 'magically' our money is spent on snake oil! Yes, I have also been fooled on occasion.... Now it could be there is a 'tiny' bit of truth, in whatever latest weight loss supplement comes out ( it might have a very small effect on one's metabolism but it might also be dangerous in large doses and it is NOT the cure all it is touted as ( that is a LIE!!!)
so one aspect of end times is we are living in a world of deceit, and lies but bigger and bigger lies are coming!!!
Wow, very good! And what you've said just made me realize something! Remember how we all hated Obama and many came right out and said he could be the AntiChrist? But you're 100% right when you said that the AntiChrist won't be someone people will hate, including us before the rapture, if we should think we know someone it could be. No, the AntiChrist will be someone that everyone will think is a wonderful person, and a great leader. So again, the Lord is letting us know that we don't have to worry about a person that the world hates, but we should beware of anyone that the world loves! That's actually always true according to scripture. Because if the unsaved world loves something or someone, there's got to be something about them or it that's contrary to God's Word. But if they hate someone or something, you can bet that they (or it) goes along with God's Word.
This is especially true of people. Remember, the Lord taught us that we would be hated because of our association with Him. Notice He didn't say we "might be" or that we'd be hated by "some" of the unsaved. So when the world loves us and thinks we're the greatest thing since peanut butter, there's something very wrong....it most likely means the person isn't really saved at all. Strangely that's happened with the president elect in the last two elections. Both Obama and Trump have been held up to the people by other people as a Savior and both have been treated that way by the saved and unsaved people who loved him. (keep in mind that it's always mostly the unsaved treating them that way because there are so few people that are truly really saved. Therefore there's always a lot more folks that are unsaved.)
Every time a new president is elected we see this same thing. People who aren't really saved try and make it look like the new president is saved and is a real Christian. People even fight over whether or not the president is actually saved. Which is absolutely ridiculous. For one thing God tells us we can easily tell by their fruit - by their normal average way of life. I seriously doubt if any of our presidents for a long time have been truly saved. I guess Christians are trying to elect someone they think is saved, and to make themselves feel better pretend the person they voted for is saved. But, if you think about it, how could a real Christian get elected? Jesus said they'd be hated by all the unsaved, and since the unsaved outnumber the saved, there's simply no way a saved person could get elected. Sadly that won't happen until the Millennium.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 22, 2020 10:58:00 GMT -5
That was a really interesting point, that a real Christian would be hated and would not be elected.
it's also true that both Obama and Trump were simultaneous 'revered' as saviors but also greatly disliked. But I keep thinking when the anti-Christ comes on the scene, at least for a short while, he will be so charismatic very few, at first will not think he really really is truly the messiah!
But as time passes and many become saved, they will quickly see the truth, but those who take the mark, may never.
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 22, 2020 13:50:21 GMT -5
This is just an aside, I wanted to mention before going on. There have been and are critics of scripture, who try to avoid any prophecy by various means. One has been to change the date of any prophetic scripture, and claim the author, was not in fact looking forward ( by being told of God the future) but rather they were actually looking back ( and did not live as in the early time the Bible states).
Well, leaving that aside because one soon finds that idea ends up filled with errors.
I started thinking about how the end times ( or our time) is still proving the Bible true, One small example is mankind today is the same as in the beginning. People still have much of God's image and even more so they are depraved. Men have not evolved, one look at the news this very days, shows the cruelty, sickness physically and mentally, emotionally and spiritually)!! If you want a prophecy that was foretold in advance soooo long ago ( the Garden of Eden), this is one that cannot be refuted!!
I have always found it interesting that only the Bible gets so many naysayers spending so much time trying to poke holes in it...whereas they for the most part leave other 'religious' books alone.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
There are several aspects of how the world will be during the tribulation: It is going to have a one world leader: the anti-Christ. For a long time now, we have seen people theorizing that if we did not have 'Countries', boarders, walls, etc. and if we all shared our resources world wide, that would be a major step in ending wars.
I think the 2nd half of Revelation 13:7 speaks to the anti-Christ have world wide power: [smear:#2e3663] "And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,[/smear:#b00f20:1]
The 'it' in that verse is the 'beast'......kind of a strange name for a 'person' until you realize this person will be indwelt by satan ( a true terrifying 'beast').
Some more information about this person/beast:
[smear:#19e642]5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. [/smear:#e62419:1]
Also these two verses one from Revelation in the New testament and one from Daniel in the old testament:
[smear:#cc167d]And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?” Revelation 13: 1-4[/smear:#5b9c0d:1] [smear:#32e619] "15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me. 16 I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of the things. 17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’
19 “Then I desired to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrifying, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze, and which devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet, 20 and about the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast,
there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings." Daniel 7: 15-24 [/smear:#af1ca7:1]
What we can see is that this person/beast/dragon will 'conquer/unite the whole world and have authority. I think the 'dragon' in the Revelation 13: 2 verse:
[smear:#e68319]"And to it ( the beast/anti-Christ) the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. [/smear:#1c4a7f:1]
The dragon is satan ( there are other verses in scripture that refer to satan as a dragon).
I wonder if people, leaders of all the countries of the world will be so overwhelmed by the 'lesser' judgments and wrath of God being poured out ( they will be beyond anything the world has ever had tho... still the 2nd half of the tribulation will be unbelievably even worse!!!) That they will willing submit to a one world ruler.
Besides that, I truly believe satan may already be preparing people for this, by teaching this idea in schools, in the media, movies, songs, etc etc Even the 'environmental crisis' may also be a perfect platform for 'uniting' as one world. ( reminds me of Michael Jackson's song: We are the World)
Saving the environment is being pushed almost as much as gender fluidity in schools. A week or so ago they showed Al Gore's: An Inconvenient Truth to my grandson's 7 grade class ( as if it were science and truth).
So tho it seems inconceivable all the countries would unite under one world leader, it is not impossible ( and those who don't do it willingly will be killed no doubt). The anti-Christ will not be a loving, kind, compassionate, Christ-like man....he will be a dictator like no other....but at first he will appear to be all of those things.
But part of gaining absolute control brings up another major aspect....money. As it is now every country has its own currency....which would be very inconvenient for the anti-Christ so a one world currency will be needed....and this is where the satanic 'mark' of the beast will come in. Amazingly, tho we do not know exactly what this will truly be, we do have technology to make it happen right now.
I am not saying that is for sure what will happen a chip inserted for example.... just saying .....IF it were to be that.... it is already viable.
However, there is one aspect of that which has to happen....whatever the mark will be people will also determine that in accepting this mark, in order to buy and sell they will WORSHIP the anti-Christ.
Fell free to jump in Cindy and add to or correct at any point!!! LOL
More tomorrow!!
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fearnot
Living With Pain
Posts: 7,587
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Post by fearnot on Jan 23, 2020 13:08:35 GMT -5
Before I continue I want to add to one more Biblical quote about why we should not disregard any part or portion of the Bible, like Revelation etc.
[smear:#73b918]"1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, speak to your people and say to them, If I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from among them, and make him their watchman, 3 and if he sees the sword coming upon the land and blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then if anyone who hears the sound of the trumpet does not take warning, and the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet and did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But if he had taken warning, he would have saved his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, so that the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any one of them, that person is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand." Ezekiel 33: 1-6 .[/smear:#128969:1]
And a kind of matching verse ( in my mind) is:
"[smear:#95439e]6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. Matthew: 24: 6-8"[/smear:#29966a:1]
I see this as a part of spreading the gospel, something we are supposed to do:
[smear:#b43816]10 And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. Mark 13:10[/smear:#348944:1]
[smear:#5f214e]13 Calling ten of his servants,he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ Luke 19:13[/smear:#0a9057:1]
Tho the Luke verse seems to be about commerce, it also has to do with His servants increasing their ability to do 'good' [smear:#87970c] "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10[/smear:#5e1976:1]
So the good works we are to do is to spread the good news of Jesus, and His forgiveness, eternal life etc. but also, time is running out and we are seeing ( as watchmen because we are Christians) end times sign increasing, and I think, to point them out to unbelievers, is part of giving them the 'truth'. Also in the Luke 19 verse, the "Til I come" seems to me to clearly point to Jesus returning. It is not just money we can use to spread the gospel, but any and all the talents God has given to each believer.
If you have more to add or corrections please do so.
In any case, I will go back now to the anti-Christ and the tribulation.
I think Daniel 12:1 makes it crystal clear, this will be the ultimate of horrors, like the world has never had nor ever will ( and the world has had already some horrific times in history!!!), as does Matthew 24: 21
[smear:#5c7e06]“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1[/smear:#9d0d6d:1]
[smear:#e6196b]"21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be". Matthew 24:21[/smear:#1c6c18:1]
And tho the anti-Christ, at first may 'SEEM' to be the answer to all the world's problems, and humans 'savior'.... he will in fact ( because he is indwelt by satan) be it's worse dictator, and will kill more humans than any dictator ever. Satan hates humans, he always has, but he is slick, sly, clever, and can appear as the most wonderful angel of light (if necessary to bring as many humans to Hell, as possible by his influence.....whatever way works.)
[smear:#1b443f]"14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." 2 Corinthians: 11: 14[/smear:#c019e6:1]
This is just my own musing ( not in scripture as such) but I wonder if satan will give the anti-Christ a similar ability? We know the anti-Christ will in fact be able to do great signs and wonders.
Even those false christs, which are not THE anti-Christ, can produce great signs and wonders
"[smear:#cede1a]24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:24[/smear:#b919e6:1]
Why not throw in 'light'...as in an angel of light? After all satan was once, maybe the highest of all the angels, or at least, probably, one of the highest, and certainly of extreme beauty, talents etc.
Ezekiel gives us a bit of this angels beauty, talents etc before he rebelled:
[smear:#368522]“ 12 You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering,....
On the day that you were created they were prepared. 14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you".
Ezekiel 28: 12-15[/smear:#914374:2]
My thoughts are, that perhaps when satan indwells the anti-Christ, he will for a time, be able to have some ( or a great deal) of this same beauty he once has.
( it will only be false...he is no longer blameless in his way, he is evil, full of hate, deceit, cruelty, madness, etc.)
And tho satan ( and thus the anti-Christ) hates all humans, satan has ( and always had), a 'special' hatred for Jews and Christians.
So more on that tomorrow.
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Post by Cindy on Jan 23, 2020 13:13:50 GMT -5
That was a really interesting point, that a real Christian would be hated and would not be elected.
it's also true that both Obama and Trump were simultaneous 'revered' as saviors but also greatly disliked. But I keep thinking when the anti-Christ comes on the scene, at least for a short while, he will be so charismatic very few, at first will not think he really really is truly the messiah!
But as time passes and many become saved, they will quickly see the truth, but those who take the mark, may never.
I see I should have clarified what I meant. When I said they were seen as a savior, I didn't mean as a spiritual savior or like Jesus. I meant as a physical or material savior, someone who would save the people from the things that cause them fear and worry. That's how people will see the AntiChrist at first and that's how both Obama and Trump have been seen. The AntiChrist won't be seen or acknowledged as a Savior like Jesus, someone who can save their souls, until toward the end of the Tribulation. Probably after he supposedly comes back to life.
It's kind of sad what we see happen each time when it's an election year, and we see many Christians looking for someone who's saved and a perfect Christian to vote for. They don't seem to understand that there is no such person in politics. I don't mean to say that there's never been a Christian involved in politics, I'm sure there has been, especially at the lower levels like in towns or possibly low level state positions. But the higher the level, the more they're known and the more people will hate them. So as I said before, they would be so horribly hated because they were truly saved, (by both dems and republicans) that they wouldn't have a chance. Instead we need to look for the man who is going to do what's best for the country and stop trying to force them to fit inside the "perfect Christian" mold. All we can do is not vote for the ones that will do things that are totally against God's Word (like those who are for abortion or making this transgenderism garbage legit, etc.) and if both candidates are for those things or some of them, then write in someone who isn't. But what really makes me scratch my head is why a Christian would get so involved in politics at all. I can understand wanting to see our country do better and all, but to get so involved and loving a candidate that you refuse to see his negative traits, just totally blows my mind. But I guess that's what has to happen before the AntiChrist comes on the scene. I guess this is preparing for that. I'm talking about denying things that are obviously true, like with Obama the way they denied that he wasn't born in the US, insisting that he was. Or like Trump the way they refuse to admit what he said about that reporter that has Cerebral Palsy, or else insist that he wasn't making fun of the guy when it's so obvious that he was it's ridiculous.
This is just an aside, I wanted to mention before going on. There have been and are critics of scripture, who try to avoid any prophecy by various means. One has been to change the date of any prophetic scripture, and claim the author, was not in fact looking forward ( by being told of God the future) but rather they were actually looking back ( and did not live as in the early time the Bible states).
Well, leaving that aside because one soon finds that idea ends up filled with errors.
I started thinking about how the end times ( or our time) is still proving the Bible true, One small example is mankind today is the same as in the beginning. People still have much of God's image and even more so they are depraved. Men have not evolved, one look at the news this very days, shows the cruelty, sickness physically and mentally, emotionally and spiritually)!! If you want a prophecy that was foretold in advance soooo long ago ( the Garden of Eden), this is one that cannot be refuted!!
I have always found it interesting that only the Bible gets so many naysayers spending so much time trying to poke holes in it...whereas they for the most part leave other 'religious' books alone.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
There are several aspects of how the world will be during the tribulation: It is going to have a one world leader: the anti-Christ. For a long time now, we have seen people theorizing that if we did not have 'Countries', boarders, walls, etc. and if we all shared our resources world wide, that would be a major step in ending wars.
I think the 2nd half of Revelation 13:7 speaks to the anti-Christ have world wide power: Good, thank you for telling what the scripture is! [smear:#2e3663] "And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,[/smear:#b00f20:1]
The 'it' in that verse is the 'beast'......kind of a strange name for a 'person' until you realize this person will be indwelt by satan ( a true terrifying 'beast').
Some more information about this person/beast: But what scripture is this one? (I know it's Revelation 13:6, but most people wouldn't have any idea and this would confuse them.)
[smear:#19e642]5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. [/smear:#e62419:1]
Also these two verses one from Revelation in the New testament and one from Daniel in the old testament:
[smear:#cc167d]And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?” Revelation 13: 1-4[/smear:#5b9c0d:1] Revelation 13: 1-4 Thank you! [smear:#32e619] "15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me. 16 I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of the things. 17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’
19 “Then I desired to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrifying, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze, and which devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet, 20 and about the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast,
there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings." Daniel 7: 15-24 [/smear:#af1ca7:1] Daniel 7: 15-24 thank you! What we can see is that this person/beast/dragon will 'conquer/unite the whole world and have authority. I think the 'dragon' in the Revelation 13: 2 verse: [smear:#e68319]"And to it ( the beast/anti-Christ) the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. [/smear:#1c4a7f:1]
The dragon is satan ( there are other verses in scripture that refer to satan as a dragon).
I wonder if people, leaders of all the countries of the world will be so overwhelmed by the 'lesser' judgments and wrath of God being poured out ( they will be beyond anything the world has ever had tho... still the 2nd half of the tribulation will be unbelievably even worse!!!) That they will willing submit to a one world ruler.
Besides that, I truly believe satan may already be preparing people for this, by teaching this idea in schools, in the media, movies, songs, etc etc Even the 'environmental crisis' may also be a perfect platform for 'uniting' as one world. ( reminds me of Michael Jackson's song: We are the World)
Saving the environment is being pushed almost as much as gender fluidity in schools. A week or so ago they showed Al Gore's: An Inconvenient Truth to my grandson's 7 grade class ( as if it were science and truth).
So tho it seems inconceivable all the countries would unite under one world leader, it is not impossible ( and those who don't do it willingly will be killed no doubt). The anti-Christ will not be a loving, kind, compassionate, Christ-like man....he will be a dictator like no other....but at first he will appear to be all of those things.
But part of gaining absolute control brings up another major aspect....money. As it is now every country has its own currency....which would be very inconvenient for the anti-Christ so a one world currency will be needed....and this is where the satanic 'mark' of the beast will come in. Amazingly, tho we do not know exactly what this will truly be, we do have technology to make it happen right now.
I am not saying that is for sure what will happen a chip inserted for example.... just saying .....IF it were to be that.... it is already viable.
However, there is one aspect of that which has to happen....whatever the mark will be people will also determine that in accepting this mark, in order to buy and sell they will WORSHIP the anti-Christ.
Fell free to jump in Cindy and add to or correct at any point!!! LOL
More tomorrow!!
Interesting! You did better giving the chapter and verse of the scriptures you're talking about, but you missed one which could make it kind of confusing for someone who wasn't as knowledgeable about scripture as we are.
The reason for that is so that people can look things up for themselves and can see the truth for themselves; it's also because God's Word is what transforms people and what saves people so the more we post of His Word, and the more chances people have to perhaps look it up for themselves and read more, the more chances of someone being saved, or being shown truth where they believed a lie before. Finally, it's also because we don't want to do anything the false teachers do!
About people submitting to a one world leader.... as you said, many presidents and other politicians have been trying to make that come true for a long time, and part of that is that they've been using the media to try and brainwash the people so that the people will want that too. Even many Christians, (those who don't know or understand about the Tribulation especially) think it would be really great to have one united world. They see nothing wrong with it. The problem is us humans though. There can't be peace in this world until our sin nature is either gone or under God's control and that won't happen until the Millennium when Jesus will reign on Earth.
But keep in mind that the world will have voted in this world leader, or somehow begged him to take over running the planet. It may start with just one country or maybe a group of countries like those of Europe, or even the US (though I doubt that), and then grow into asking him to rule over the entire planet from there. But however it happens, the people themselves will be the ones wanting it to happen. They may change their minds later, but then it will be too late.
OK, time to confess. Some time ago my goal was to help you realize that you no longer needed me as a teacher, (we'll always be friends!) and that in fact, you were ready to teach others too. I feel like I've achieved that, actually did so some time ago. You do a great job explaining what the Bible teaches! So now my goal has changed. I feel like now I'm just trying to help you refine your teaching skills. (such as remembering to cite the scripture passages) etc. While I do still add things and share them with you, it's no longer to "teach" you. Instead it's simply one person sharing something with another that we're both interested in. I think that the way you've been teaching your grandson has also helped you alot. I've seen tremendous growth in you, that's for sure! You are quite capable of teaching others right now and have been for a long time. All we're doing here really is helping each other continue to grow in our faith and in the love and knowledge of our Lord Jesus so that we can better make known the love of God & the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ to others.
So....how do you like being a teacher?
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