Post by Daniel on May 15, 2019 9:14:42 GMT -5
Pre Wrath Blues
May 11, 2019
Having just finished a month-long email debate with two men from an online Prewrath ministry, I have come to the realization that you just can’t argue with stupid. I realize that sounds harsh and perhaps even unchristian ….but it is the truth. For the record, I am not calling them stupid, just their reasoning’s for supporting a Prewrath (PW) view.
Any eschatological view that either puts the church into the 70th Week, or denies bible prophecy outright or in part, is heretical in nature. Now, I use that term heretical cautiously, because it is a serious charge to lay against anyone. Heresy is not just those things the orthodox authorities or majority deem heretical, but also those things, which go against the very text of the Bible itself.
Although this isn’t the first time I have had a theological engagement like this, it is just the latest in a long line of end-runs the enemy has made into making divisions and schisms in an already dwindling population (i.e., the watchmen who care about Bible prophecy). It also makes me sad, not just for these two gentlemen, but for all who have bought into false teachings regarding the time surrounding the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. First for those biblically illiterate who are swept up by false teachings and had their lives ruined. Even worse, for those whose faith was crushed by a deception and quit believing altogether. Hermeneutics actually matters.
Therefore, after a month being berated, belittled, and generally not having my questions answered in any kind of coherent or logical manner, I pulled a Pilate on these two and washed my hands of the whole affair. I don’t mind a good debate now and again, especially if we conduct it in such a way that is honoring to God (iron sharpening iron), but these two “ministers” were quick to go ad hominem on me the moment they felt like they were losing the argument.
One troubling aspect to this whole affair was the reality that they were not interested in the truth of what Scripture actually says, but only in their interpretation of what they want it to say. Furthermore, they put more emphasis on personal prophetic hearings, visions, and a ‘word of knowledge,’ then on how those compare with what Scripture actually teaches. Even more troubling, was what they were accusing me of applying a literal/grammatical/historical hermeneutic of Scripture;
That is the point Pete, you say you believe you are correct. When it comes to God’s Word that is really not good enough. In the old testament God frowned upon those who prophesied by their own spirit. Again, several times in the 2nd and 3rd chapter of Revelation the Spirit of Christ said “He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches” Few end time teachers endeavor to hear what the Spirit is saying. Men are prophesying by their own spirit by approaching scripture from a hermeneutical intellectual perspective. There are many men who are actually hearing from the Lord by dreams and visions, some of them are receiving prophetic warnings and others a word of knowledge about things to come which can and have come to pass. I find almost none of them espousing a pre-trib Rapture…While hermeneutics can be a useful tool when attempting to interpret scripture, it does not work when interpreting prophecy. The proof of this is clearly visible in the fact that just about every Western prophecy teacher uses hermeneutics, but are teaching dozens of different end time’s doctrines. Jesus says “He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches”.
While I am not going to repost the entire conversation, I have two witnesses (Terry and Randy) who can attest to the entirety of the conversation to ensure I am not misrepresenting anyone here. They actually accused me of holding to a literal, grammatical, and historical interpretation of Scripture (taking the text for what it says), and then equating that (in a pejorative manner) as “my own interpretation.” They then argue that many men they know who have had private and / or personal visions, dreams, and that almost NONE of them are Pre-Trib in nature, as proof that I am wrong?
Wait, what??
In their estimation, there was more weight (more credibility) given to those who have dreams and visions, than to what the written Word actually says. In 2 Timothy 2:15, the Apostle Paul charges us to study to show thyself approved…The Apostle Peter warns us in 2 Peter 1:20 that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. What these both tell me, is that following dreams, visions, or a “word of knowledge,” which an individual receives privately, does NOT trump what God’s word says publicly. So at the very least I am comforted in the fact that our enemy is consistent and these men are not receiving dreams and visions of a Pre-Trib nature. For the record, I’m not saying people can’t have dreams and visions, but if these do not conform to what God’s word has already said, then they are not of God. Let us consider three points-
a) God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33)
b) God is not going to contradict His own word (Num. 23:19)
c) God is not the only supernatural being out there (Ephesians 6:12, 2 Cor. 11:14-15)
However, let me just set the record straight once and for all, up front, and in bold font,
The Bible teaches only ONE eschatological view on prophecy
Just like the Bible teaches only ONE soteriological view on salvation.
Just like the Bible teaches only ONE ecclesiological view on the church.
The Bible is NOT a choose-your-own-adventure book.
Those who abandon the normal, literal, grammatical, and historical interpretation of Holy Scripture are the very reason WHY we have so many different viewpoints on every major doctrinal position. It is because they follow their dreams, visions, or a “word of knowledge,” and that causes them to depart from what the Word actually says. I believe this is how most (if not all) cults begin. When one chooses not to accept the Bible for what it says (in context to the surrounding passage) then what you are in effect doing, is creating a choose your own adventure book.
Alternatively, neither am I promoting “wooden-literalism,” as Hank Hanegraaf (the Bible Answer Man) used to accuse us dispensationalists with, but rather, with a common-sense literalism. [For the record, Mr. Hanegraaf has since eloped from Protestantism into the Eastern Orthodox realm seeking more visual enlightenment as it were]. So what is common sense interpretation?
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” –Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965), founder of The Biblical Research Society
Therefore, what this means is that…
1. The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its face value, if possible.
2. The following is an analysis of the adjectives “primary,” “ordinary,” and “usual.”
3. “Primary” emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term.
4. “Ordinary” and “usual” are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, “usual” being employed for the sake of emphasis.
5. “Literal” is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning. (Link)
As to departing from the literal, grammatical, historical hermeneutic, this is not new. People have been twisting, perverting, reinventing, and wordsmithing the Bible for the last two-thousand years without fail because everyone if gifted with the curse of opinions. From the first century Gnostics, to the poor misguided youngsters in the Emergent Church movement. From Origen to Rachel Held Evans, everyone wants to put their own spin on the Bible to force Scriptures to contort to the norms of their day. People might accuse me of being overly harsh regarding people who pervert the Bible to their own gain, but how one interprets, the Bible is significantly important. Here are just a few examples of how things turn out badly for those who abuse Scripture.
Any eschatological view that either puts the church into the 70th Week, or denies bible prophecy outright or in part, is heretical in nature. Now, I use that term heretical cautiously, because it is a serious charge to lay against anyone. Heresy is not just those things the orthodox authorities or majority deem heretical, but also those things, which go against the very text of the Bible itself.
Although this isn’t the first time I have had a theological engagement like this, it is just the latest in a long line of end-runs the enemy has made into making divisions and schisms in an already dwindling population (i.e., the watchmen who care about Bible prophecy). It also makes me sad, not just for these two gentlemen, but for all who have bought into false teachings regarding the time surrounding the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. First for those biblically illiterate who are swept up by false teachings and had their lives ruined. Even worse, for those whose faith was crushed by a deception and quit believing altogether. Hermeneutics actually matters.
Therefore, after a month being berated, belittled, and generally not having my questions answered in any kind of coherent or logical manner, I pulled a Pilate on these two and washed my hands of the whole affair. I don’t mind a good debate now and again, especially if we conduct it in such a way that is honoring to God (iron sharpening iron), but these two “ministers” were quick to go ad hominem on me the moment they felt like they were losing the argument.
One troubling aspect to this whole affair was the reality that they were not interested in the truth of what Scripture actually says, but only in their interpretation of what they want it to say. Furthermore, they put more emphasis on personal prophetic hearings, visions, and a ‘word of knowledge,’ then on how those compare with what Scripture actually teaches. Even more troubling, was what they were accusing me of applying a literal/grammatical/historical hermeneutic of Scripture;
That is the point Pete, you say you believe you are correct. When it comes to God’s Word that is really not good enough. In the old testament God frowned upon those who prophesied by their own spirit. Again, several times in the 2nd and 3rd chapter of Revelation the Spirit of Christ said “He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches” Few end time teachers endeavor to hear what the Spirit is saying. Men are prophesying by their own spirit by approaching scripture from a hermeneutical intellectual perspective. There are many men who are actually hearing from the Lord by dreams and visions, some of them are receiving prophetic warnings and others a word of knowledge about things to come which can and have come to pass. I find almost none of them espousing a pre-trib Rapture…While hermeneutics can be a useful tool when attempting to interpret scripture, it does not work when interpreting prophecy. The proof of this is clearly visible in the fact that just about every Western prophecy teacher uses hermeneutics, but are teaching dozens of different end time’s doctrines. Jesus says “He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches”.
While I am not going to repost the entire conversation, I have two witnesses (Terry and Randy) who can attest to the entirety of the conversation to ensure I am not misrepresenting anyone here. They actually accused me of holding to a literal, grammatical, and historical interpretation of Scripture (taking the text for what it says), and then equating that (in a pejorative manner) as “my own interpretation.” They then argue that many men they know who have had private and / or personal visions, dreams, and that almost NONE of them are Pre-Trib in nature, as proof that I am wrong?
Wait, what??
In their estimation, there was more weight (more credibility) given to those who have dreams and visions, than to what the written Word actually says. In 2 Timothy 2:15, the Apostle Paul charges us to study to show thyself approved…The Apostle Peter warns us in 2 Peter 1:20 that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. What these both tell me, is that following dreams, visions, or a “word of knowledge,” which an individual receives privately, does NOT trump what God’s word says publicly. So at the very least I am comforted in the fact that our enemy is consistent and these men are not receiving dreams and visions of a Pre-Trib nature. For the record, I’m not saying people can’t have dreams and visions, but if these do not conform to what God’s word has already said, then they are not of God. Let us consider three points-
a) God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33)
b) God is not going to contradict His own word (Num. 23:19)
c) God is not the only supernatural being out there (Ephesians 6:12, 2 Cor. 11:14-15)
However, let me just set the record straight once and for all, up front, and in bold font,
The Bible teaches only ONE eschatological view on prophecy
Just like the Bible teaches only ONE soteriological view on salvation.
Just like the Bible teaches only ONE ecclesiological view on the church.
The Bible is NOT a choose-your-own-adventure book.
Those who abandon the normal, literal, grammatical, and historical interpretation of Holy Scripture are the very reason WHY we have so many different viewpoints on every major doctrinal position. It is because they follow their dreams, visions, or a “word of knowledge,” and that causes them to depart from what the Word actually says. I believe this is how most (if not all) cults begin. When one chooses not to accept the Bible for what it says (in context to the surrounding passage) then what you are in effect doing, is creating a choose your own adventure book.
Alternatively, neither am I promoting “wooden-literalism,” as Hank Hanegraaf (the Bible Answer Man) used to accuse us dispensationalists with, but rather, with a common-sense literalism. [For the record, Mr. Hanegraaf has since eloped from Protestantism into the Eastern Orthodox realm seeking more visual enlightenment as it were]. So what is common sense interpretation?
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” –Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965), founder of The Biblical Research Society
Therefore, what this means is that…
1. The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its face value, if possible.
2. The following is an analysis of the adjectives “primary,” “ordinary,” and “usual.”
3. “Primary” emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term.
4. “Ordinary” and “usual” are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, “usual” being employed for the sake of emphasis.
5. “Literal” is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning. (Link)
As to departing from the literal, grammatical, historical hermeneutic, this is not new. People have been twisting, perverting, reinventing, and wordsmithing the Bible for the last two-thousand years without fail because everyone if gifted with the curse of opinions. From the first century Gnostics, to the poor misguided youngsters in the Emergent Church movement. From Origen to Rachel Held Evans, everyone wants to put their own spin on the Bible to force Scriptures to contort to the norms of their day. People might accuse me of being overly harsh regarding people who pervert the Bible to their own gain, but how one interprets, the Bible is significantly important. Here are just a few examples of how things turn out badly for those who abuse Scripture.
continued..